Why SL is been left out of the current metaverse hype?

[ChinRey]

7 hours ago, Destiny91 said:

From the comments ( which I didnt read all of them ) I realise that metaverse is going to be a PG platfrom just to hangout and play or go to a concert that a famous person would perform there?

Facebook's ... I mean Meta's Metaverse will probably be strictly PG rated but I will not accept that they steal the metaverse name! Only a network of interconnected but independently run virtual realities truly deserves that name.

[Maryanne Solo]

5 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

Odd from my memory and when I had to go through the age verification system they required solid RL identity information such as drivers license, passport and the like. Perhaps I remember it wrong. 

No you are remembering correctly Real world, genuine ID (supposedly) was required to become age verified.
I know this because I was never age verified and used to be frightened I would get kicked out of SL or something.
(and couldn't go to any adult places which was ok because I spent all my time making clothes).

[Qie Niangao]

34 minutes ago, Maryanne Solo said:

No you are remembering correctly Real world, genuine ID (supposedly) was required to become age verified.
I know this because I was never age verified and used to be frightened I would get kicked out of SL or something.
(and couldn't go to any adult places which was ok because I spent all my time making clothes).

As I recall, folks reported having no problem verifying with totally fictional IDs.

Also, my recollection was that Aristotle/Integrity was only supposed to verify ID, explicitly not retain that ID. That certainly reduces customer hesitancy and makes the business a smaller target, but it would also mean there'd be nothing to give law enforcement (assuming the IDs were actually verified, which evidently they weren't, at least some of the time). Some may have privacy concerns about service providers responding to subpoenas in criminal cases, but that's all more important than deterring a few TicTok-deprived teens from sneaking a peek at the National Geographics.

[Lucia Nightfire]

10 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

No other game or platform would get away with having child genitalia visible or available.

You don't want to play VRChat or Roblox or at least see what goes on in private "rooms"...

10 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

Oddly, a child avatar can also be on said M rated sim but not on a adult rated sim.

Child avatars are allowed in adult regions, just not allowed in proximity of adult behavior/content/activity.

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Adult_Content_FAQ

They basically leave it up to self-policing. It still blows my mind, though.

[Sid Nagy]

1 hour ago, Lucia Nightfire said:

They basically leave it up to self-policing. It still blows my mind, though.

A dollar from a child avatar is just the same as a dollar made from a fox or whatever other avatar.
LL wants to police in world as little as possible. I think that's why they chose the landbarons as middlemen as well.

Edited January 25, 2022 by Sid Nagy
Because I have to do it myself.

[Lucia Nightfire]

4 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

A dollar from a child avatar is just the same as a dollar made from a fox or whatever other avatar.
LL wants to police in world as little as possible. I think that's why they chose the landbarons as middlemen as well.

Despite the ethics/peace of mind marketing angle, it really boils down to cost savings not having to staff moderators to monitor every point of contention with the platform. Look at how much revenue Roblox spends on moderation and they still can't stop all the grief, grooming and sexually explicit content propegation.

[Coffee Pancake]

12 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

Why is SL always the special case of 'oh that wouldn't work'. It is a cop out and nothing more. Plenty of platforms have such tagging or filtering yet for some reason SL cant? Also I wasn't talking about just voluntary tagging. If a person wants to create a child mesh avatar body they must go through a similar process as skill gaming regions do.

Other platforms have content oversight.

Any system that depends on voluntary tagging is doomed to abuse, misuse, mistakes and subterfuge.

Putting a skill gaming size burden on creators of child avatars or any other consumer content is ridiculous, not to mention that brings with it an implied LL seal of approval.

12 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

LL have the most ambiguous (and not enforced) rating system I have every seen.

Because enforcement minutia is deferred to the land owner. 

 

12 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

I'm not sure what you meant in the last part (where you said a person wants their product to show to everyone) in relation to child avatars and illegal activity we are talking about as there is no case where a child avatar should be anywhere near an adult sim. Maybe I just read your post wrong.

You totally did .. 

 

Stop trying to dream up ways to systematically police people and all the bad things you imagine they're doing. How about not imaging bad things involving child avatars at all .. 

We get it. You don't like child avatars. Don't buy a child avatar and don't hang out with child avatars. Get on with your life.

It's really very easy.

[Max Quirky]

It has been left out of the hype because those wanting to be in the hype reached out and “encouraged” the media. 

[Rowan Amore]

Some things are just too outlandish to even comment on.  

 

[Persephone Emerald]

Policing Second Life is kind of like trying to police the internet, because there are all kinds of people in here with all kinds of goals and attitudes. Where you go in SL will also largely determine the kinds of people you meet and their interests. I'm sure there are those who look for child avatars for inappropriate activities, just as there are people who chose to use a child avatar for those activities. I think there are more people using child avatars in non-sexual roleplay, but I have no way to measure that data. Adult regions may sometimes be for largely non-sexual roleplay, such as family, vampire, ancient world or Game of Thrones RP. Because there may be adult themes acted out, the owners of such sims often decide to keep the sim set to Adult and will dissuade players from allowing child avatars in areas or in scenes where adult activity may take place. They may allow child avatars in non-sexual scenarios, because they would be appropriate characters in the roleplay there. 

The age of a player can not generally be proven, but since Moderate and Adult regions are supposed to keep out minors,  I think it's reasonable for people in these areas to assume that the avatars there are probably being run by adults. Suggesting that an avatar could make money stripping or escorting does not mean someone is trying to groom a child for adult activities. It's just a well know way that some people make money in SL, and unless you say you're a minor in RL, most people will assume you're an adult in RL. 

On the other hand, if you do see things that are obviously against the TOS, such as RL sexual pictures in someone's public profile, then you should report that. I've seen a few pictures in people's profiles and skyboxes that shocked me, so I know this can be a problem in SL.

[Silent Mistwalker]

Do you mean to tell me I've been having sex in SL for the past 18 years and didn't know it!? 😲

Quick! Someone tell me how I managed to do that! I'll make a fortune!

[Drayke Newall]

9 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Stop trying to dream up ways to systematically police people and all the bad things you imagine they're doing. How about not imaging bad things involving child avatars at all .. 

We get it. You don't like child avatars. Don't buy a child avatar and don't hang out with child avatars. Get on with your life.

It's really very easy.

I was responding to the topic question as to why SL is left out of the current metaverse hype in that it has serious issues with illegal activity (be that child avatars in sexual situations, beast******, sexual abuse, etc.), and lack of moderation by LL (and yes that includes their reliance on user moderation of which it is a known fact LL dont respond to many AR's). Through this the reputation of SL suffers and therefore no one looks at it the same way as other metaverse's. They see it as a playground for everything other platforms try to moderate or remove.

Sure you cant stop it all but LL's reliance on user moderation and not actively trying to police it themselves with controls is absurd.

SL's reputation isn't bashed because it has adult content like you seem to think based on your previous posts. Lots of games/platforms have adult content with some having the same legal adult content, even illegal adult content in some cases under the radar per Lucia's post.

SL's reputation is bashed because of the seedier and illegal irl things that happen in plain sight that go on with LL refusing to attempt any form of company moderation unlike all those other platforms. You can deny all you want but this is a major part of why SL is not discussed.

I also find it amusing you seem to think I am imagining the "bad things" involving child avatars. Maybe I was imagining going to an M rated beach sim (non nudist) the other day and seeing two child avatars having sex (maybe it is because I log into SL off peak when there are 30k and under users on), or to the furry sim/horse maker sim/feral avatar sim seeing furniture and pose systems for sale that allow for a human avatars to have sex with an animals.

It exists and exists in plain sight for any new user to see. It is those things that ruin SL's reputation.

I have no issue at all with child avatars. Them conducting adult activities however that they shouldn't be, I dont want to see, shouldn't have to see, and shouldn't need to constantly AR. Maybe you dont care seeing it but it isn't something I want to see on my SL touring.

12 hours ago, Lucia Nightfire said:

You don't want to play VRChat or Roblox or at least see what goes on in private "rooms"...

I know they have it but they try to actively police it and not rely solely on other users to police it themselves. I dont deny that you can't stop everything from happening in content creation systems. It would be impossible and is why even Skyrim a single player game has those sort of illegal activities as mods being made.

The difference is that those platforms due to their moderation (company wise) are taken seriously in the current discussions as people see them making an effort to handle such things unlike LL.

12 hours ago, Lucia Nightfire said:

Child avatars are allowed in adult regions, just not allowed in proximity of adult behavior/content/activity.

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Adult_Content_FAQ

They basically leave it up to self-policing. It still blows my mind, though.

I was talking about child avatars not being allowed on adult sims where there is adult behaviour and yet allowed on M rated nudist beaches (per my example) where people can bring their own adult huds (already nude) and engage in adult behaviours around child avatars making the rating system pointless due to user moderation. As you said, LL reliance on self-policing is mind boggling.

Edited January 26, 2022 by Drayke Newall

[sirhc DeSantis]

Hell of a thread where I agree with the resident Canadian academic. Surprised it is still going.

But its the usual suspects in this forum and - I call out the real media (not anyone with a pod etc) and put this *****e right. As best I can

Do you?

And yes in 15 years - ARs do work.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

53 minutes ago, sirhc DeSantis said:

Hell of a thread where I agree with the resident Canadian academic.

Oh pish posh. It's not that unusual.

And I've got the screenshots to prove it.

[Innula Zenovka]

9 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

SL's reputation is bashed because of the seedier and illegal irl things that happen in plain sight that go on with LL refusing to attempt any form of company moderation unlike all those other platforms. You can deny all you want but this is a major part of why SL is not discussed.

Could you please provide us with some examples from the news or specialist media (not random comments in reddit) of SL's reputation being thus bashed more recently than 2007 or so?   I ask because, at least in the UK, all the prosecutions of which I'm aware (including this dreadful case) have concerned social media, particularly platforms popular with children and young teens, not SL, which hasn't once featured in any discussion of the long delayed Online Safety Bill that's under consideration here.   

Nor have I seen the issue raised in any recent media coverage of SL  as a result of heightened interest in virtual worlds.

I'm sure there are plenty of examples of people bashing SL or Linden Lab in this way within the last 5 years, which I've just missed because I don't try to keep up on the topic, and I would appreciate your help finding them.

Edited January 26, 2022 by Innula Zenovka

[Innula Zenovka]

 

[Katherine Heartsong]

On 1/24/2022 at 9:41 AM, Rowan Amore said:

The majority of avatars I'd classify as underage (less than 18) are not using a designated mesh child avatar.  They use Maitreya mostly with the flat.chest option.  

This. I ventured into two of the popular spots to see since I have a pet peeve about realistic looking avatars ... one a tropical themed island-like club and the second an actual "dreamy" place that suggested that younger-looking avatars were dancing and available for, umm, "dates". That's what I found in both cases, skinny ass shapes 5' tall or less on Maitreya with the petite add-on. And no idea who allows this but in the second place, my goodness there were some avatars that really pushed the boundaries of what I can call 18+. Really pushed. (shudders)

[Drayke Newall]

2 hours ago, Innula Zenovka said:

Could you please provide us with some examples from the news or specialist media (not random comments in reddit) of SL's reputation being thus bashed more recently than 2007 or so?   I ask because, at least in the UK, all the prosecutions of which I'm aware (including this dreadful case) have concerned social media, particularly platforms popular with children and young teens, not SL, which hasn't once featured in any discussion of the long delayed Online Safety Bill that's under consideration here.   

Nor have I seen the issue raised in any recent media coverage of SL  as a result of heightened interest in virtual worlds.

I'm sure there are plenty of examples of people bashing SL or Linden Lab in this way within the last 5 years, which I've just missed because I don't try to keep up on the topic, and I would appreciate your help finding them.

I did reply with the evidence both links (recent court case) and quotes (and links from review sites etc) but you'll have to wait for my rather long post to be un-hidden by a moderator, unless they delete it which I would not see why they would as I tried to blank out as much of the 'negative feedback' as possible that I thought would flag the post whilst leaving parts of the words for context, but clearly it is more selective than I thought.

If you want I could just send you a DM with the post as well if you dont want to wait and have to scroll back to the post.

Edited January 26, 2022 by Drayke Newall

[Sammy Huntsman]

*****? Since when is two furries going at it, considered *****? I mean that is the only thing I can think of. That and two ferals going at it. I am not in that community. But you would need an actual animal for it to be called *****.

[Drayke Newall]

9 minutes ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

*****? Since when is two furries going at it, considered *****? I mean that is the only thing I can think of. That and two ferals going at it. I am not in that community. But you would need an actual animal for it to be called *****.

Think BC horse and a human avatar. Nothing to do with furries.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

44 minutes ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

*****? Since when is two furries going at it, considered *****? I mean that is the only thing I can think of. That and two ferals going at it. I am not in that community. But you would need an actual animal for it to be called *****.

Animal / human sex -- b*stiality -- is most definitely a "thing" in SL. I've known people who were into it, including one who made products for it. It's got nothing to do with furries and Yiffing. I believe dogs are the most popular partner.

ETA: Just did a really quick search on MP. There are animesh dogs with a full set of "sex" animations. Pricey, though!

Edited January 26, 2022 by Scylla Rhiadra

[Janet Voxel]

19 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Animal / human sex -- b*stiality -- is most definitely a "thing" in SL. I've known people who were into it, including one who made products for it. It's got nothing to do with furries and Yiffing. I believe dogs are the most popular partner.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 minute ago, Janet Voxel said:

That pretty much exactly captures my own feelings on the subject, Janet. Ick.

It's not a subject I know a lot about, to be honest, but my sense of it, at least from those I've spoken to about it, is that it's often at least partially centred upon the sense of humiliation and self-abasement. At least in the human women who do it.

[Sammy Huntsman]

36 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

Think BC horse and a human avatar. Nothing to do with furries.

Okay, but the whole thing is. There is a human behind that avatar. I am not saying the behaviour is okay. That and it's not a real horse. 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Just now, Sammy Huntsman said:

Okay, but the whole thing is. There is a human behind that avatar. I am not saying the behaviour is okay. That and it's not a real horse. 

Well, as I noted in an edit to my post above, you can buy animesh animals as "partners."

NOTHING is "real" in SL, Sammy. Not the avatars, the environments, the dancing, the sex. That obviously means that these are not the "same" as their RL counterparts -- but that doesn't mean that these things don't have impacts upon our thoughts, feelings, and attitudes. If they didn't, we wouldn't be doing them. And if you didn't get off on the idea of being ****** by a dog, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't drop over L$12000 for a virtual "pet" who can do it.

That's not "the same" as real b*stiality -- no dogs were harmed in this rather gross exercise. But the question has to be asked, what sort of impacts is this kind of activity having?

Precisely the same thing is true of age pl*y in SL -- this invariably involves RL adults. No RL children were harmed. But what impacts does it have? Does it normalize this kind of behaviour, for instance? Or is it a "release" that means that the virtual p*dophile won't seek out real children?

I don't think we have anything like conclusive answers to those and similar questions, in part because they will likely vary from person to person, and according to context.

But they are vital questions to ask.