Linden Lab vs. The Residents

[Lindal Kidd]

Well, all right then. I was invited to post my thoughts in a new thread instead of the CasperVend thread, so in case you missed it, I said:

______________________________________________________________________

There really needs to be more separation between what LL does, and profits from, and what residents do, and profit from.

LL has already made three giant steps into the creators' bailiwick: Linden Homes (competes with and takes business away from resident landlords); the Marketplace (takes away the service formerly provided by XStreet); and closing out all third party L$ exchanges. Now here comes LL again, buying up another hugely successful resident-built business.

______________________________________________________________________

So...that's four times LL has stepped in and scooped up something created by residents. They SAY that their intent with the CasperVend acquisition is to keep an important piece of infrastructure up and running. Indeed, the demise of the previous front-running vendor and rental box system, HippoTech, is an indication of what can happen.  LL is a business, and they aren't in the business of altruism. My guess is that sooner or later, we're going to see fees applied to the use of the new CasperVendLL vendors and rental boxes. "Just a small percentage to offset the cost of providing this service", of course.

Perhaps it's just an extension of what LL has always done: rely on residents to create the world. This has been, overall, a huge success. No team of game designers could have created anywhere near the variety of content that SL residents have made.

The problem, as I see it, comes in where to draw the line. When is it right and proper for LL to create something, run something, and yes, make money from something? And, since the whole philosophy, the creation engine of SL, depends on residents being willing to create and innovate, when is it right and proper for residents to own something, run something, sell something, and profit from their labors?

When LL introduced Linden Homes (and even more, when they made them more attractive with new designs and more prims), they severely impacted the resident-run land rental business, both private estates and Mainland rentals. We see the results: an ever-growing suburbia of Bellisseria, huge vacant tracts of traditional Mainland, and fewer private regions every month. Maybe this is progress? Maybe; but it DOES illustrate the profound impacts a change in LL policy can have on the world.

It leaves a bad taste in my mouth when residents develop a new, profitable product or industry or service, and then LL buys it up or imitates and competes with it. The residents made this world for you, LL. It's unfair of you to take over the best parts of it.

 

 

[Count Burks]

What to say .....

 

 

 

Edited September 14, 2022 by Count Burks

[Ceka Cianci]

I don't think it is altruism, but more as someone said in there, seeing something that is too big to fail.. I don't even want to imagine  the chaos that would come if Caspervend just wasn't there one day, because of something like what is going on in the world today with unsure economy's..

For all we know,  LL might not have been the ones reaching out.. I think if they show up one day saying everyone has to use their system, like they did with Xstreet and Slappy ( I would never forget you Slappy Hugs) Then ya.  But it really does feel like more of a thing to make sure both creators and their customers don't fall into a Ginko situation, where one day they are left holding an empty bag of  omgwtf happen to mah backup stuffs.

They won't know what we bought we we would end up having to go and get new one or go without.. Sales slump off, profits for creators slump off, customers quit, creators quit,  retention goes down, lights go out.. <=========Worst case scenario.. Why start at the minimum if we're already thinking big.

 

 

[Chaser Zaks]

Keep in mind that it is also the business' right to decide whether or not to sell. Caspertech had all the right to say "no" to the acquisition.

Personally I do not use Caspertech because I prefer to do my own things because I do the whole "invented here" thing, but I personally see Caspertech being acquired being a good thing, even if I run my own vending system. The chances of them exposing APIs to do something like "llMarketplaceAuthorizePurchase(key resident, integer marketplace_id);",  "llMarketplaceRequestPurchaseInfo(key resident, integer marketplace_id);" and "llMarketplaceRedeliverPurchase(key resident, integer purchase_id);" is now greater than ever, and I personally find it benefiticial for me, as it means I won't have to run redelivery cubes(although, I may still run them for a few things).

[Kimmi Zehetbauer]

I have a feeling Caspertech reached out. The creator probably wants more time for other things and offering his system to the Lab would allow that.

Now he can buy an RV and travel around the place.

[Gwin LeShelle]

A new thing and SL aquired it? In SL terms Casper is old as stone xP and the person being responsible for Casper gave the impression of being sadly not able to keep up with the demand for a while now so I really think they reached out to LL. But I guess some people just loooove to see bad things in everything... Some just seem to need that I see it in positive light and I will watch and wait ... All those wild assumptions up there won't lead anywhere. Maybe I'm way too chill when it comes to SL nower days but man LL can't do anything right when it comes to certain forum people 😂 no matter what they do the assumptions run so wild it always leaves me speechless and am happy that I have too much work, family and hobbies in RL to worry THAT serious about SL stuff. Now let the Casper tech man enjoy his camping trips!

I am very happy about this because this means I can redeliver my stuff forever as long as the stores I love keep existing 💗

[Rowan Amore]

"For now" the plan is not to charge for this service but with private estate sales down by 200 since July per @Daniel Voyagerpost, I do think it will become another revenue stream in the near future.  

LL is in business to make a profit.  Unless someone has better ideas on how they can achieve that that doesn't have someone complaining, they may have to close the doors sooner rather than later.  

 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

To be honest, I don't, as a consumer, see much of a difference between using the service of one business or another, assuming that they are mostly on par in most respects. If LL "leverages" this to jack up prices, I might have reason to complain, but it's more likely that they will be improving it by making it interoperable with other systems. How much actual competition from other user-created systems did CasperVend actually have, anyway? Who is being "crushed" or disadvantaged by this?

I'll note that what was, I think, a FAR more obtrusive move by LL, the creation of Bellisseria and the new Linden Homes, has succeeded as well as it has because it provided things that people weren't getting from mainland or estate rentals. Yes, LL was using its unique tools to ensure that this was the case, but it hasn't strong-armed people into taking Linden Homes. They have instead provided value for money, and the kind of rental / residential experience people evidently want. Maybe private land barons should pay some attention, and ask themselves how they might be able to replicate or even better this success?

[Nika Talaj]

Lindal, personally I see a real difference between the first of your examples (Linden Homes), and the other 3.  Xstreet, the exchanges, and Caspertech all seem to me to be cases where LL did not provide critical infrastructure required for SL's growth, resident(s) stepped in, and their services became so widely adopted that they became "too big to fail", logical targets for acquisition and closer integration.

[Another area where LL dropped the ball and residents stepped in is mesh avatars.  Good luck with that one, LL - you probably missed the moment where a canny acquisition or two could have made SL so much simpler to use.]

But Linden Homes are different.  Now, I love Bellisseria, but I think it is kaboshing private estates.  LL couldn't have delivered a more crushing blow if the whole intent of Belli were just to crush estates.

When LL finally SAW the value of what many estate owners were providing - the value of community-building and responsive support - one way they could have gone would have been to foster and promote those efforts.  For a while I thought the disastrous community gateway program was intended to do just that.  Instead, LL eventually mounted a competing effort with Bellisseria, pretty much eliminating any ability for estates to recruit new residents.  

LL appears oblivious to the fact that some surviving estate owners are STILL providing beautiful rental properties and support services to a large number of non-Premium renters. This despite the fact that it is rather obvious that @Patch Linden almost certainly himself rented in some of the better estates, given how Bellisseria has turned out.  Personally, I think there should always have been some sort of compensation to any estate that was above a certain size and provided an enforced covenant and 24-hour support response to their customers.  

I find it hard to understand many of LL's land policies.  Why not create a new class of mainland that has a covenant?  Why not simplify the incredibly baroque tier system so it's easier to own mainland?  Why engage in channel conflict with your most valuable landowners? Bewildering.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

8 minutes ago, Nika Talaj said:

LL couldn't have delivered a more crushing blow if the whole intent of Belli were just to crush estates.

Is there evidence that this is happening? This is not a rhetorical question -- is there?

I know estates are down now, but Linden Homes have been around for a while now, and the current dip in the numbers surely has more to do with the turn in the real world economy than anything else. Was there a loss of estates in the immediate aftermath of the creation of Belli?

And, although I'm sure this is hard to determine, has there been specifically been a depression in estate or mainland rentals? Not all estates are for rental properties, after all, although many use a limited number of rental spaces as a means of supporting the cost of the land.

I've heard a bit of complaining about the putative impact of Belli, but it's all been anecdotal. Has anyone looked into the situation of private rentals?

[Gwin LeShelle]

I think the real and good blow to private estate rentals was, more people going premium and realizing it's much cheaper and waaaay more reliable and stable to own MAINland or yes a Linden Home. I rented before and was sooo tired of landlords disappearing, or just closing their business or well just decide to con their tenants. I love our mainland parcels and we live there for a small eternity now and it finally feels like a little virtual home spot and I have no fear of losing it anymore after putting decorative work into it. No more unreliable landlord.

[Chic Aeon]

22 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Is there evidence that this is happening? This is not a rhetorical question -- is there?

I know estates are down now, but Linden Homes have been around for a while now, and the current dip in the numbers surely has more to do with the turn in the real world economy than anything else. Was there a loss of estates in the immediate aftermath of the creation of Belli?

And, although I'm sure this is hard to determine, has there been specifically been a depression in estate or mainland rentals? Not all estates are for rental properties, after all, although many use a limited number of rental spaces as a means of supporting the cost of the land.

I've heard a bit of complaining about the putative impact of Belli, but it's all been anecdotal. Has anyone looked into the situation of private rentals?

As "I" watched things unfold (and I was a big Belli fan and think that was one of the smartest moves LL ever made) it wasn't the Belli Syndrome that hurt the estates so much as the taxes of late. One of the big estate owners came on these forums (I think he had 82 or something like that) and said he was closing down because of the taxes.  Not too long after the tax went into effect I started watching the big yellow estate markers on the map.  I also went over to two of the estates I had rented from. One had NOTHING but tiny plots available and the other had one (ONE homestead -- which I rented).   So those 82 "now missing" (maybe some were sold but the anecdotal evidence doesn't seem to support that) made a big impact.   The homestead I am renting is the same one I rented before and the price is the same and I am pleased with that. 

Now the US tax issue was law and not LL's doing. They simply implemented what they had to do.   

 

I think the underlying issue here is that many folks have lost trust in what LL says. You can spin all day and nudge the optics to look good, but some old residents have long memories.  I can certainly see that it is better to have "the government" holding the commercial strings than someone who could just disappear (after almost 20 years there are a lot of really old folks here).   But that being said I am going along with the folks that consider this a money maker down the road.   

 

 

 

 

Edited September 14, 2022 by Chic Aeon
adding bold

[Chic Aeon]

Just a note that this is supposed to be a conversation about the new acquisition, not Belli and land :D.   

 

Sorry. My bad. Got my threads mixed up.

Edited September 14, 2022 by Chic Aeon
adding info

[Charalyne Blackwood]

I wasn't aware LL had a beef with...

[Extrude Ragu]

2 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said:

My guess is that sooner or later, we're going to see fees applied to the use of the new CasperVendLL vendors and rental boxes. "Just a small percentage to offset the cost of providing this service", of course.

Assuming that we continue with being able to sell without using Caspervend or the MP, then I think not much has changed here - Caspervend already does take a commission on most creators sales, so that would just be going to LL now instead? With that said, if LL were to start charging the residents commission who specifically paid Caspervend for one of their premium no commission vendors, then that is definitely a problem.

2 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said:

When LL introduced Linden Homes (and even more, when they made them more attractive with new designs and more prims), they severely impacted the resident-run land rental business, both private estates and Mainland rentals. We see the results: an ever-growing suburbia of Bellisseria, huge vacant tracts of traditional Mainland, and fewer private regions every month. Maybe this is progress? Maybe; but it DOES illustrate the profound impacts a change in LL policy can have on the world.

Can I just say I never brought mainland prior to the Premium regions because SecondLife's original mainland imo is awful. Both for price gauging and I mean... well, look at it. It's a mess. I think that SecondLife with a few moles could so easily deliver something better than the mainland is a statement about the amount of greed and lack of development and innovation going on by private companies in the traditional mainland. I am personally very glad that SL made the new premium regions. Perhaps what really needs to happen is the private region salesmen need to up their game and actually make things attractive on the traditional mainland.

I kind of sympathize with the point about resident run stuff, but the atrocity that is the traditional mainland IMO is indefensible, and Hippovend leaving the scene the way it did caused big economic problems, so I am kind of glad that Caspervend is in LL's hands now.

 

[Maitimo]

I'm cautiously optimistic about this aquisition - after the disaster that was the Hippo collapse, I can certainly see how important it is to keep Caspertech running when so many people rely on it.

There will always be people who object and I think this will encourage, not discourage competition. As long as there are people who don't want to use Linden Lab's version of caspertech,  they will create and use alternatives.

Yes we'll probably be paying a commission to Linden Lab on in-world purchases (a sales tax, if you like). But weren't we already paying that commission to Casper anyway?   I don't necessarily object to Linden Lab finding alternative ways to make money. With mainland sales tanking, there needs to be alternative revenue streams, otherwise there just won't be any SL at all.

Comparing Bellisseria with this is a little unfair though. With Caspertech and XStreet, Linden Lab aquired something that already existed in SL for years. But Bellisseria is unique - it fills a niche that simply did not exist before - ready made, rent-free, community-style living that isn't just going to disappear tomorrow when the estate-owner decides to sell the region and return all your stuff with no notice.

[Coffee Pancake]

1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Is there evidence that this is happening? This is not a rhetorical question -- is there?

Estates can't compete with LH, even LL lose money on them by their own admission. There is no doubt in my mind that this will have impacted the land rentals.

 

I don't think it realistic that 3rd party vendor systems could compete with LL now either, especially as they traditionally use a business model that depends on new customers.

[Persephone Emerald]

I hope LL has learned over the last 20 years what keeps this platform going vs. what could kill it. SL has changed much in the past 20 years, which in general I think is a good thing. The world outside of SL has changed too, not necessarily for the better, but there's not much we can do about that.

In The Beginning SL didn't have much competition. Now it does. In order to stay relevant and competitive, LL has to keep the platform as good-looking and functional as it can, while also allowing freedom and profitability to the user-creators who use this platform. When the first Linden Homes were introduced, this hurt the inworld rental market, but it didn't wipe it out. Those who could provide something better than the original Linden Homes have still been able to be profitable. When mesh finally became standard in SL, this hurt many creators who couldn't use mesh, but it didn't kill sales in SL at all. The switch from X-Street to Marketplace didn't either. The new Linden Homes might be hurting rentals and land sales now, but I'd bet the RL economy is a much bigger factor. I think it will be ok if some people reduce how much they're spending in SL, so long as we can get more new users to stay and spend money here.

One of the big problems for new users is the vast variability in content - from how avatars look to how they buy and unpack stuff. The NUX avatars should address some of the avatar appearance problems for new uses without impacting the rest of us adversely. Maybe if LL can integrate Caspertech into Marketplace purchases, this will also help reduce confusion for new users, while allowing creators and landlords flexibility in how they choose to sell stuff or rent property?

One thing is certain. So long as SL keeps changing with the times, it won't become stale and moribund.

Edited September 14, 2022 by Persephone Emerald

[Sammy Huntsman]

3 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said:

Well, all right then. I was invited to post my thoughts in a new thread instead of the CasperVend thread, so in case you missed it, I said:

______________________________________________________________________

There really needs to be more separation between what LL does, and profits from, and what residents do, and profit from.

LL has already made three giant steps into the creators' bailiwick: Linden Homes (competes with and takes business away from resident landlords); the Marketplace (takes away the service formerly provided by XStreet); and closing out all third party L$ exchanges. Now here comes LL again, buying up another hugely successful resident-built business.

______________________________________________________________________

So...that's four times LL has stepped in and scooped up something created by residents. They SAY that their intent with the CasperVend acquisition is to keep an important piece of infrastructure up and running. Indeed, the demise of the previous front-running vendor and rental box system, HippoTech, is an indication of what can happen.  LL is a business, and they aren't in the business of altruism. My guess is that sooner or later, we're going to see fees applied to the use of the new CasperVendLL vendors and rental boxes. "Just a small percentage to offset the cost of providing this service", of course.

Perhaps it's just an extension of what LL has always done: rely on residents to create the world. This has been, overall, a huge success. No team of game designers could have created anywhere near the variety of content that SL residents have made.

The problem, as I see it, comes in where to draw the line. When is it right and proper for LL to create something, run something, and yes, make money from something? And, since the whole philosophy, the creation engine of SL, depends on residents being willing to create and innovate, when is it right and proper for residents to own something, run something, sell something, and profit from their labors?

When LL introduced Linden Homes (and even more, when they made them more attractive with new designs and more prims), they severely impacted the resident-run land rental business, both private estates and Mainland rentals. We see the results: an ever-growing suburbia of Bellisseria, huge vacant tracts of traditional Mainland, and fewer private regions every month. Maybe this is progress? Maybe; but it DOES illustrate the profound impacts a change in LL policy can have on the world.

It leaves a bad taste in my mouth when residents develop a new, profitable product or industry or service, and then LL buys it up or imitates and competes with it. The residents made this world for you, LL. It's unfair of you to take over the best parts of it.

 

 

This whole doom and gloom post is absolutely not needed as I said in a previous post. XStreet while it may have been a valuable service back then, it is not really that valuable anymore. I was one of those people that got annoyed with that system, having to basically get a box delivered to you, to have to unpack that box. Just to get to another box, was absolutely time-consuming. I can see why that failed. And as I said with the third-party L$ exchange platforms. I would not be able to trust them with my banking info, and would rather have something like Tillia handling all that. Again as I said, you could get scammed and they run away with your money.  And I honestly don't think Linden Homes are taking away business, I think it's more inflation and the cost of living going up. And again LL is a business, not a charity, I am sorry if you were expecting it to be entirely free. If they do decide to add fees to Caspervend and Casperlet. 

Residents will still profit from their labors, just cause and I say cause they may add a fee. Doesn't mean they will really lose that much, a small percentage would go to LL. To help with maintaining those systems, that we have all come to love. That being said, LL has only done it 4 times. LL isn't taking over anything, it isn't Pinky & the Brain here. It's just them realizing if it winds up failing, that LL can save it.  As the economy so heavily relies on Caspervend, that may hurt SL if it fails and leaves. 

[Sid Nagy]

As customers we are as always basically in the "take it or leave it"-position.
It is LL's show, played by their rules.
In the end it always boils down to the same decision one has to make: Do I still like SL enough to accept the changes?
And as a merchant one can add: Do I still make enough in SL to justify my efforts?

It is totally impossible for LL to make everybody happy. Every decision they take is possitive for some and negative for others.
A lot of creators had to fold when sculpties and later meshes (including mesh bodies) came on the scene.
Europeans where affected when VAT was added to land. Some landlord had to throw their towels in the ring.
House rentals got a punch below the belt when LL started with their houses for premium and now with Belli some landlords get another one.

But there are winners too: People who are in SL for the Barbie and Ken dress up fun are better of with the mesh clothing, bodies and hair.
People who are in SL for decorating houses Belli is a good alternative for renting land elsewhere.

Same with this Caspervend thing that is happening now.
For some it will be a good thing, for others not. Everyone will have to decide for themselves in the end: Is it a good thing for me or a bad one.
We'll find out.

Edited September 14, 2022 by Sid Nagy

[Crim Mip]

I don't see this as relevant to the acquisition of Casper. You may not remember what happened when HippoVend and HippoRent (or whatever it was called) just went offline one day with no notice. Granted, by then a lot of people had moved to Casper already, but there were a sizable number who didn't. It was a mess. There were sellers who simply went out of business because of that. Landlords lost who knows how many thousands because all records of rent paid and rent due went away. Making sure that doesn't happen again, even if that were all that it was for, would make this a good situation. Casper already had some hooks into the MP. There are things it may be able to do that will make it even better.

[Casper Warden]

For the record,  LL reached out to me asking about things that could be improved with the second life service to help with our services and business in general. It wasn't immediately a discussion about acquisition. But we (eventually) mutually reached that conclusion.  

CasperTech wasn't in trouble or at risk, but I am certainly looking forward to being able to invest more time into development.

Much love to all ❤️ 

[Liandra Aries]

4 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Is there evidence that this is happening? This is not a rhetorical question -- is there?

Yeah.  CDS (Confederation of Democratic Simulators) vast swathes of yellow for sale land.  New Babbage (where i have a plot) has seen a downturn since the newer LL homes opened.  Caledon is the same.  Other planned communities have also seen the decline since Linden Lab opened their council estates on the market.  If Second Life is eventually going to turn into continents of rabbit hutch sized boring houses with postage stamp sized gardens and the REAL COMMUNITIES take a nose dive, well, SL will have no interest to me at that point.

[Silent Mistwalker]

I don't think I will finish reading the thread for one reason. I keep seeing people claiming that CasperTech is a new business. IT IS NOT NEW. CasperTech has been around for more than a DECADE!

PLEASE get your facts correct.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

3 minutes ago, Liandra Aries said:

Yeah.  CDS (Confederation of Democratic Simulators) vast swathes of yellow for sale land.  New Babbage (where i have a plot) has seen a downturn since the newer LL homes opened.  Caledon is the same.  Other planned communities have also seen the decline since Linden Lab opened their council estates on the market.  If Second Life is eventually going to turn into continents of rabbit hutch sized boring houses with postage stamp sized gardens and the REAL COMMUNITIES take a nose dive, well, SL will have no interest to me at that point.

For what it's worth, while there are a number of elements to Bellisseria that I like -- things like the infrastructure, provision for community space, navigable space on land, air, and water, etc., I similarly have zero interest in moving into suburbia in SL.

I am a bit surprised to hear that CDS, New Babbage, and Caledon have lost people to Belli though, as the main attraction of these places is a particular character, aesthetic, or (in the case of CDS) ideology that is certainly not to be found in the new Linden Homes.

The region where I currently rent, Voroznia (which is a mock up of a 70s era Soviet city) has had no problem apparently attracting residents. I wonder what the difference is?