Is SL too hard for newbies?

[PixelBerry]

7 minutes ago, Profaitchikenz Haiku said:

Are mesh bodies really the thing giving newcomers the hardest time? My impression from several of these types of threads is that most newcomers want to actually go somewhere, meet some people, do something (even if it's try to kill them with an AK-47). I mean, if the default female Daisy Dukes look was good enough for Lavender Storydel, i's good enough for most people who just want to go out and bug hell out of interact with the Slitizenry.

( Quite seriously, if that female look hadn't been quite acceptable, half of Lavender's troling research could have been snuffed out in fifteen seconds by giving her the typical look-it's-a-noob response. But they didn't, she got hours and hours of interaction.

Looks are not the major problem newcomers have to cope with.

Of course it isn't the most important thing and the only major problem, but it can be confusing for those who are trying to change out their standard avatar, which wasn't a problem back in the day because that is how everyone looked like.

But finding someone to talk to is also a issue for newcomers because there are those places that kicks out avatars that aren't 30 days old or older ( because most likely they want to avoid trolls and people harassing them ), and people are spread out these days, hiding in their homes, as well as Second life is a huge place with lots of different types of sims.

But there are also newcomers who expect  people to fall on their laps as well without taking any effort into looking for people, or communicating with people, because this is the internet. 

But yes I also understand it's not easy to find somewhere to go or someone to talk to.

It's like the real world, it's not easy to talk to strangers from both ends, well depending on where you are from of course.

Edited November 2, 2021 by PixelBerry

[Rolig Loon]

17 minutes ago, PixelBerry said:

It's like the real world, it's not easy to talk to strangers from both ends, well depending on where you are from of course.

And there's the real challenge.  This is a Second Life. When you arrive, it's just like moving to a new town where you don't know anybody, can't even find a grocery store or the post office, don't know which places to avoid or who to trust, don't know the local laws (or the informal rules about where you get to park your car), and might not even understand the regional accent (or the language). If you've moved around a lot in RL, you know the drill but it never really gets easy.  

The sorts of things that make relocating in RL hard are also in SL.  I don't see how to make most of them go away without making SL into a game instead of a Second Life.  We could have more Welcome Wagon hosts and house warming parties, I suppose.  We could hand out more goodie packages from the Chamber of Commerce.  We could offer more classes to teach the local language and we could have a lot more police on the streets to clean up the dangerous spots and lock up the bad guys.  LL does some of those things.  Residents do too.  They cost money and manpower, of course, but they help.  Mostly, though, I think we need to tell each other not to expect RL Lite when we get here.

[Jennifer Boyle]

On 10/30/2021 at 10:46 AM, Lindal Kidd said:

LL actually tried this, years ago. The viewer had a "beginner" mode and an "expert" mode. Unfortunately, the beginner mode didn't address what almost every newbie wants to do first: play around with their avatar.

So, people would try out SL, wind up thinking that SL avatars were not very versatile, and quit.

Or, they would immediately find out how to turn beginner mode off, so they could customize their avatars.

I have long thought that the idea was a very good one, but that the execution was flawed because the designers didn't understand their audience. The beginner mode needed to facilitate avatar customization, because that's what many users want to do right away, but it could be simplified in many other ways. I still think that the viewer should have multiple modes  ranging from a beginner one that's very easy to use and has little versatility to an expert  one like Firestorm. In addition, there needs to be a lot more in the way of very readily accessible-from-within-the-viewer online help.

[Rowan Amore]

53 minutes ago, Jennifer Boyle said:

designers didn't understand their audience

That could be said for a lot of things implemented over the years.  It's almost as if no one in design/development has ever spent any time inworld with regular residents doing regular resident things.

[LilithServil]

SL needs a better tutorial, for one. An ACTUAL tutorial, one that someone could access at any time and not just one that's thrust on them from the get-go that they might be too overwhelmed with everything else to take in fully. Someone who skips through the opening tutorial area to get to the customizing part may then struggle trying to remember all of the controls they skipped past.

Better starter avatars and easing people into customizing right away would be great. Get them familiar with how things work. Appliers, BOM, and Mesh are big parts on SL now; it'd be great if there were mini tutorials to get people familiar with the terms.

Completely get rid of "Wear" and only allow people to Add items. Wear vs Add is a huge problem to new people. I say this as someone who recently got two friends to join, both used to MMOs like FFXIV, so I figured SL's overwhelming interface wouldn't be a problem... It was. God, it was.

 

 

Out of both friends, one stayed. She still took a solid week to start Adding things and not Wearing them, and that was with me on with her for hours to kind of coach her and help her put together a look (providing her with L and making a unique skin for her) so she didn't feel like as much of a fish out of water.

The other who didn't stay could never get a handle on the controls. He can multitask in an MMO and keep track of a million systems but SL. The camera was the biggest hurdle. He kept flying by accident and not knowing how to stop. He kept sitting on 3D grass because of the hitbox instead of sitting on a picnic table and then not understanding how to get back up. He kept using Wear instead of Add, kept getting lost in the inventory, didn't understand having to unbox items so kept wearing a box on his hand or head, etc. I also made him some custom stuff to get him started but he ended up quitting in a couple weeks after putting his own L on and realizing he didn't really know what to do in the world and didn't really "get" it. He also didn't understand why his computer which can run modern games at ultra quality 60 fps struggled with SL.

I 100% do not expect anyone I do introduce to stick around past the initial login just because of all the factors at play. It's simultaneously overwhelming and underwhelming to people at the same time, it seems: Some systems feel way too complicated for a new person and others feel backwards compared to what everyone's used to. People also aren't as social on SL as on other sites/worlds/etc-- take something like VRChat which has a similar goal of exploring a virtual world and meeting people. You're more likely to have an interesting experience going into a crowded room as a new player in VRChat vs SL, because in one people are openly communicating and screwing around, and in the other people are much more standoffish and have a certain air about them most of the time.

I know I can personally count on one hand the amount of people I've interacted with on SL who aren't friends I've introduced within the last few months. A lot of people tend to talk in IMs now or feel kind of "cliquey" if you don't know where to go. A lot of places will outright eject new players/people wearing the newbie avatars (which is understandable, I get wanting to avoid griefers) which severely limits the social experience and discourages new players from sticking around if their goal is to meet others.

 

 

This turned into a bit of a muddled mess of personal experiences, but it's still all things that add up in the end.

[Naiman Broome]

I would propose something else instead...

What about Having a new revolutionary approach to avatars, by using avatars created with metahumans ? may be implementing metahumans into SL to have better realistic avatars in a simplier way ... because right now it feels we are building over an old system and keeping all together with laces and tape and this is why it become so ankward and clunky to create avatars, too many layers, too many weird steps to take , too much stuff to learn , and most peole that come for first time will be just overwhelmed and discouraged.

The two systems could work side by side , this would give creators the time to switch gently on the new system and also give the time to create enough new content to be able to use the new bodies at their full potential , without the need to have multiple layers, bom etc...

[Marianne Little]

On 11/2/2021 at 7:01 AM, Mari Moonbeam said:

I used to help new people- a lot. Don't anymore - they are on the SL viewer ,which I can't understand , AND I think they don't easily see when people start a conversation with them.

The whole mesh body thing, I don't understand why there is no standard workflow. Not saying it should just be one click and done but I have watched videos  [why are so many voiced in a heavily accented baby voice]  , read makers blogs, begged creators, even paid 'consultants' for private tutoring   and find no standardized way to tell what order to use the various layers, alphas, appliers BOMs buttons  etc.

"It varies and doesn't always work the same" seems to be the one truth.

Not to do something fancy but just getting underwear on, getting clothes , eyes, lipstick to even appear. That's all I want - look at a chart - this body, that item -- here are the 35 steps in this order to make it work. IT's not the work it's the lack of standardized instructions.

There is something very  wrong IMO when you buy clothes marked for your unaltered brand body and there is no way to layer the clothes . Doesn't it make sense to have underwear NOT pop through? Not dancer feathers but a tiny bow on underwear .

And that you need to attach sooooo many appliers ,  layers etc to hide  your system eyes or attach a tattoo.

I joined through the CSI-NY portal, they had paid creators staff  welcome hubs and I could drop in and ask any question and then go back out exploring with the prim off my head etc .

Today, even IF Linden staffed hubs I can't see how they could do the most basic tutoring --"How can I wear my new body and clothes since I like this "game" and want to stay." It would take too long.

And then of course, if you get looking sharp and go to an event then you  have to dial down max complex to be able to move and know that just like you can't see others now , they can't see fancy new you anyway . [I am rarely over 80k and have an upgraded  1 year old macbookpro ].

 

 

 

 

 

 

One of the problems, I think, is that it is too much outdated information. Plus that it is so many different mesh bodies/heads and different ways to use them.

The part with underwear, the only solution would be to make it transparent when something else is worn over it. Those who were wearing a dress would not like it, because they could be upskirted.  Skin tight mesh clothes is very popular, people demand that a dress sit as tight as the underwear.

I really hate video tutorials. They make me angry and I stop watching. Silly voice is one thing. Worse is those who blahblahblah for so many minutes before they come to the point. And then they often skim over points and make shortcuts, assuming people know SL jargon.

I think it is best to use literally word by word and illustrate it with pictures. Like I did here:

https://community.secondlife.com/forums/topic/478720-bjors-avatar-thread-and-first-topic-too/?do=findComment&comment=2369669

But this takes a lot of time to write, log in and take pictures, write down the exact names, not miss a [ or * because it is often not enough to write "Lelutka eyes" when they are named / EYES / lel Evo X in the folder. People think eyes can only be 👁️👁️ symbols and not a box symbol. Then edit the pictures, add on arrows pointing and then post on the forum.

It is not worth my time unless the tread starter is active, comes back to the thread and show interest.

For a standard where all bodies and heads work the same way and you press the same buttons, it has to be a body made and controlled by SL. I see that some suggest an open source body or head, but that would mean it branching out in all directions and there would be no standard.

Don't make me start talking about BoM... I think it is super easy and convenient, but so many people can not get it at all. It is some great tutorials over at https://virtualbloke.com/tutorials

and he makes them very detailed and don't skip a step.

 

[June Starlight]

Here's two reasons why my friends who recently checked out SL and were really intrigued by the concept didn't stay:

- one hated controls and couldn't remap them easily, and generally was overwhelmed by preferences menu;

- other had difficulty finding places to shop and hangout and lost interest before I was able rush in to help. 

Edited November 3, 2021 by June Starlight

[Marianne Little]

I had some problems when I was new in SL. One of the most puzzling things was layers. I got a box of free gifts, unpacked it and was giddy because the box was full of clothes. But it was the same two-three tops and pants, on every single layer that was. So a long top came with a jacket symbol, a top symbol, underwear top symbol and underwear bottom symbol. So I did not understand, why am I wearing a jacket, it is not a jacket? Why do I wear what is marked as pants and it is only a strap of fabric from the waist and a bit down? I think the same clothes was using stocking layers and gloves layers as well.

I also spent a lot of time trying to find tops with thin straps that did not zigzag over the chest, before I understood that it was the stupid default avatar that was the problem, not the clothes. And also, it is "folded" between the shoulder-blades so a part of the skin disappear. Back tattoos sometimes looked strange, like two strips of them was cut out.

One of the many things SL did wrong, was to not change the awfully old default avatar. LL policy is to never change it because "breaking existing content". They should have changed it in 2005, 2007 or at least in 2010. I do not think anyone in LL understood that their customers needed better shapes like toes, not paddles. If LL feared an uproar because system layers did not work the same way on the new and improved avatars, very few would complain when they saw we got toes and nails. Imagine if we had default avatars that looked better, it would be one way to dress and customize them. When LL let us upload mesh, they never thought it would be used for avatars.

 

[BelindaN]

I hung out at NCI Kuula, for a long time and found a mentor who taught me the basics. The forum experts showed me the way with mesh. Without this I wouldn't have stayed.

Now I try to help newbies where I can. I enjoy passing forward what I received. 

The whole thing is so complex that it's hardly surprising so many don't prevail here. But I don't think there's a simple fix, because one size won't fit everybody.

We do have a loose fit "Forum Academy" here anyway, with some real experts around. Maybe a new heading here with volunteer mentors would help some, but some newbies still get flamed when they stick their head above the parapet, and this won't keep them in SL will it.

Edited November 3, 2021 by BelindaN

[Jennifer Boyle]

4 hours ago, Naiman Broome said:

 ... because right now it feels we are building over an old system and keeping all together with laces and tape and this is why it become so ankward and clunky to create avatars, too many layers, too many weird steps to take , too much stuff to learn....

Exactly.

[Finite]

When I came back to SL the first time I had to get all meshed out (I left before mesh was a thing). I think getting their avies decked out is one of the first things new players want to do in SL. For me it was an expensive process in trying out different head, shape and body combos before finally settling in on something I liked. In hindsight I found buying  a shape first was the most efficient way to go. They don't always look exactly like the picture but they are a good start and typically come with style cards that tell you what head, body and skin to get to resemble the picture.

For me I already knew what I was getting back into when playing again so I didn't mind forking up the dough. However a new player might not be so keen to pay so much just to get started in a game they really don't know much about. So in that sense I think SL is difficult for new players. 

Other aspects in the game also come with a learning curve such as building and scripting. Mesh is determined by how much you already know beforehand using external software such as Maya and Blender. The learning curve there I guess would be the trial and error process of ripping thing into SL the way you intended.

[animats]

There's formal training available on game user interface design.

https://gdconf.com/masterclass/psychology-game-ux

"Experiencing a game happens in the player's mind. This is why understanding the human brain (especially its limitations) while it is perceiving and interacting with a game is paramount to accomplish faster and more efficiently your developers' goals. This workshop proposes to delve into how the human brain works in terms of perception, attention, and memory (critical elements for usability), and offers insights on human motivation, emotion, and gameflow (critical elements for engaging games). Based on these elements, the workshop proposes a UX framework and UX guidelines during the different game development stages."

The instructor has a PhD in psychology, was in charge of the user interface for Fortnite, and has published two books on the subject. So this is someone who knows what works.

Perhaps Linden Lab could send someone to take this online course.

[Theresa Tennyson]

3 minutes ago, animats said:

There's formal training available on game user interface design.

https://gdconf.com/masterclass/psychology-game-ux

"Experiencing a game happens in the player's mind. This is why understanding the human brain (especially its limitations) while it is perceiving and interacting with a game is paramount to accomplish faster and more efficiently your developers' goals.

So, what's the developer's goals in Second Life?

[ChinRey]

4 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

So, what's the developer's goals in Second Life?

Ask ten Lindens and you get ten different answers but it's a safe bet that most of them will be more focused on how they can enjoy SL themselves than how they can make it more accommodating for a wider audience.

[Teresa Firelight]

I only skimmed this thread so I may be repeating something already addressed. But there are multiple Gateways dedicated to helping new residents learn how to do things in SL. I believe that many of them are listed in the destination guide as well.

There are literally hundreds of volunteers who spend a few hours each week at the various gateways (and also at non-gateway new resident help areas). They answer how-to questions, work with newbies one on one, and assist them with learning the basics.

I do agree that SL is hard to learn when you first get there... kinda like driving a car. When you first start driving there are so many details to pay attention to and it is almost overwhelming. But after a while you know how to do these things and they become almost automatic.

That is why the personal touch of these helpers is so important.

If you run into a newbie who is struggling, I recommend you help them with SL search to fine some places for them. Some good search words for SL search are "gateway", "new resident help" or "newbie friendly"

 

[Solar Legion]

1. The Mentor Program was comprised of Volunteers - not paid employees.
2. There is no need to use the same terminology as the Gaemerz - they can learn or leave.
3. There is no need to remove the "Wear" option - explain as part of the starter material what the difference is.
4. Someone skipped through the initial tutorial? See those two regions named Orientation Island Public and Help Island Public(2)? Those are Public accessible copies of one of the oldest new sign in experiences. The idea for that setup was that a New User would learn the bare bones basics during Orientation, pick up a bit more at the Help Islands and that the original Mentors would be on hand to answer lingering questions - this last remaining the case even through one or two later changes to the onboarding experience. At the end of both, new users were told there was a Public version of both regions they could go to, to refresh their memories and get answers from the wider SL User Base.

[Arielle Popstar]

6 hours ago, animats said:

Perhaps Linden Lab could send someone to take this online course.

Linden Lab could also send someone to Firestorm and learn why they have the viewer that most of us use and learn a thing or two about supporting users. Considering that the S/L viewer is what most new users are going to download and sign inworld with, it is just crazy that the Lab does not have such people automatically setup on a New User support group, like Firestorm does with its viewer, with a tool tip pointing to it where those with a problem can quickly and efficiently ask for help right then and there instead of having to learn a bunch of stuff just to FIND where to get help and jump over. 2 minutes to set up such a group, staff it with a lab moderator and a few knowledgeable and willing volunteers with a list of links to helpful pictorial tutorials of the most basic functions and they'd be light years ahead of where they are now in having a readily accessible place where they can offer support in the exact area new users are going to have trouble.

The lab set up the resources that makes it easy and yet is the one that doesn't use it. It just baffles where their head is at sometimes.

[Lindal Kidd]

6 hours ago, Solar Legion said:

The Mentor Program was comprised of Volunteers - not paid employees.

Solar is right about this. I was proud to be one of them.

But although I didn't experience it personally, other Mentors have told me that a number of the people in the program used it to steer newcomers to their businesses, and gamed the system in other ways. This may be why LL disbanded the Mentor program, and has distanced themselves from other resident-run help organizations. It may also be why resident-run businesses no longer get to advertise at entry points: to avoid the appearance of favoritism by LL.

The "two introductory regions plus live helpers" arrangement is still in place, though. It's now Learning Island and Social Island. There's a relative newcomer to the onboarding path, Welcome Island, which is a departure from the two-region paradigm, and it seems to work just about as well. Resident helpers are on one of the Welcome Islands and one of the Social Islands, plus newcomers are encouraged by the tutorial to seek out Destinations in the "Newcomer Friendly" category, and resident helpers are at many of those destinations.

Why aren't resident helpers at ALL the Welcome Islands, Learning Islands, and Social Islands? Only LL knows the answer to that one. It may be simply that LL is still collecting data to see if live helpers make a difference in new user retention.

It's certainly true that SL has become a very complex mish-mash and hard to explain to a newcomer. The professors at Caledon Oxbridge, including yours truly, have taken several tries at creating a tutorial, a class, or a series of classes to explain avatar appearance in an accessible way. We've been unable to do so in a way that satisfies us; there's just too much detail, too many different brands, too many ways to even just open a darn box.

LL could simplify it a lot by introducing a new, all mesh avatar with standard controls.  But it would destroy hundreds of thousands of hours and millions of $L of user created content and shutter many of the major resident businesses. Those businesses are providing a large share of LL's revenue stream, so I don't see that happening, ever.

[Cinos Field]

4 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said:

LL could simplify it a lot by introducing a new, all mesh avatar with standard controls.  But it would destroy hundreds of thousands of hours and millions of $L of user created content and shutter many of the major resident businesses. Those businesses are providing a large share of LL's revenue stream, so I don't see that happening, ever.

Certainly, holding back progress to please businesses is always a bad idea. A few ways this could be done...

1) LL releases a new mesh avatar that can wear clothes for say, Maitreya.

2) People will still want to switch bodies for whatever reason anyway, because all those clothes still exist, it's just that users now get a good starter.

Alternatively...

1) LL releases a new mesh avatar with a totally new and improved system to it.

2) Clothing developers now have a fresh new body guaranteed to be popular that they can make clothes for.

3) Body developers can make a shinier version of the New LL Body and offer it as an upgrade, because we know the LL one isn't going to be perfect, and some users just prefer brandname goods.

3.5) People can still wear their old bodies too if they want. It's not like those clothes disappear!

4) Everyone wins!

If anything at all, letting the few existing brands hold SL hostage because "otherwise their business will be ruined" seems like a thoroughly terrible idea. There are always improvements to be made, and businesses will adapt.

[kali Wylder]

So I made a new alt yesterday to see what SL is like for a newbie these days.  The new person orientation was not bad.  Not much different than the old Caldon Uxbridge walk through of old.  It gets you through the how to move, how to look around, fly, sit, jump etc.  

I hit my first snag with the media screen which told me if I could read the text I was looking at then my media wasn't working and I should start it.  I tried and failed.  Not sure why but I moved on. 

The most fun thing I did was to rez a horse and go for a ride.  I tried a few of the newbie avs and cluttered up my inventory right away. 

The starter avs are a huge improvement over the old pink polka dot dress, but still didn't like how I looked.  The whole how to choose a skin thing occupied me for the next several hours until I got frustrated and quit.  Matching a skin for head and body should not be such an ordeal!

[Rolig Loon]

48 minutes ago, kali Wylder said:

So I made a new alt yesterday to see what SL is like for a newbie these days.  The new person orientation was not bad. 

What you experienced, of course, was one of several different ways that a new user enters SL.  It sounds like you may have come through Learning Island (and maybe Social Island). You might also have entered through Welcome Island (LL's new version, still in development), or through the Firestorm entry point or through several others.  There's no single way to start in SL, because LL and several groups are all experimenting to figure out what approaches work best.

[Coffee Pancake]

56 minutes ago, kali Wylder said:

So I made a new alt yesterday to see what SL is like for a newbie these days.  The new person orientation was not bad.  Not much different than the old Caldon Uxbridge walk through of old.  It gets you through the how to move, how to look around, fly, sit, jump etc.  

It's important to understand this is from the perspective of an established user who is intimately familiar with how SL operates.

[Lindal Kidd]

5 hours ago, Cinos Field said:

People can still wear their old bodies too if they want. It's not like those clothes disappear!

Maybe, and maybe not. To simplify how avatar appearance works, a new system of body sliders and clothing layers/appliers/attachments/whatever would most likely be needed. Ensuring backwards compatibility and avoiding breaking existing content, while a terrific idea, is what's gotten us into the current muddled mess.

[kali Wylder]

54 minutes ago, Rolig Loon said:

What you experienced, of course, was one of several different ways that a new user enters SL.  It sounds like you may have come through Learning Island (and maybe Social Island). You might also have entered through Welcome Island (LL's new version, still in development), or through the Firestorm entry point or through several others.  There's no single way to start in SL, because LL and several groups are all experimenting to figure out what approaches work best.

I think maybe it was Firestorm's.  They did show both the firestorm and the official viewer instructions for everything.