Is SL too hard for newbies?

[Rowan Amore]

There are many pear shaped women who have never had children.  Hips widen during puberty.

[Silent Mistwalker]

13 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

There are many pear shaped women who have never had children.  Hips widen during puberty.

In preparation for child bearing. Child bearing (actually pushing one out) widens the hips even more. But it isn't an "exterior" widening of the pelvis, the widening is "interior". It doesn't change the actual width (much), just the inner area where the child has to pass through.

 

 

[Luci Hollyberry]

I think a global chat would be incredibly helpful for these issues.  New users would initially be added to a New User group chat where they could ask typical noob questions, and then after the first month, they would be added to the normal global chat - where they could ask hopefully less noob questions and chat with users.

[Sammy Huntsman]

On 11/13/2021 at 1:01 PM, Solar Legion said:

No, they don't. Wear replaces, Add ... Adds. Explain the difference at the very least, change the former to be clear that it replaces existing items at the most.

That's it. That's all it "needs".

Part of the "problem" exists due to many creators not bothering to have an item attach to a point that makes actual sense, opting to have their items attach to the Right Hand instead. That needs to stop as well.

They also need to retopologize and learn how to optimize their clothes. You don't need over 10k complexity for a pair of shoes, that is ridiculous.

[Theresa Tennyson]

 

On 11/13/2021 at 7:34 PM, Katherine Heartsong said:

I'm super glad you know that. 90% of new users don't and there is no one to explain it to them. The UI for the LL and FS viewers don't. That's the usability issue. If it's not obvious to the user, and the default thinking is to "wear" something (which it is, if English is your first language), when stuff disappears ... and it does .. who explains that to the new user?

As a designer if I can stop a user from making an error, I should. These two very similar choices don't.

Again, this goes back to on-boarding new users. This sure isn't explained. The new user experience in SL is a mess of frustrations. I remember wanting to throw my computer across the room ... and making good UXs is my job, so I can sure recognize poor ones.

We could re-do the UX using the best policies and modern techniques by expert designers. And then the new person wants to ask how to do something so they ask this person:

 

1 hour ago, SarahKB7 Koskinen said:

I'm very different.

I've edited all Firestorm's settings to the point where my user interface looks (and behaves) 99.9% like the classic v1.23 Linden Lab viewer of the late 2000's, the same time when I joined SL.

I find the current LL viewer to be completely unusable due to its clunky and bizarre redistribution of familiar buttons, tabs, windows and features which I had become very used to in their classic viewer. I was mortified when a newer style viewer was forced on us all and was something vastly inferior and difficult to adapt to, causing many people to switch to Firestorm, which had the ability to look like the original LL viewer.

This editing to my retro-looking Firestorm viewer goes as far as having the exact same text colours, fonts and font sizes,  the arrangement of feature buttons on the bottom main toolbar, the positioning of horizontal IM tabs, friends lists, the avatars Pie Window, and disabling all Display Names (I prefer to see real account names, not their aliases) and even having the same old-school orangey floating text over my avatars head. And much much more...

Editing all these many settings manually would take me an age, so I'm glad that Setting Backup exists and does it all with one click.

I also use Singularity viewer, which is a continuation of the classic LL viewer, which is maintained by a team of non-LL individuals who have added most, if not all of the modern viewer's  features that the classic LL viewer lacked, due to it's age.  Singularity viewer still looks like the classic LL viewer interface, because it is (was?) the same viewer!

If you've never seen or used the classic LL viewer before, I would recommend trying Singularity to see and prove how much better it is, particually with building and editing objects with its more detailed object resizing and positioning in it's Edit window.

And outside of a cage match, there's simply no way to reconcile these views. (And for those of you who say that the solution is just to use the Viewer 1 interface because it was So Intuitive?

It wasn't. If you read articles from the mid-aughts, you have lots of people complaining about the Viewer 1 interface (for good reason.) That's why we got Viewer 2 in the first place.

[ChinRey]

52 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

We could re-do the UX using the best policies and modern techniques by expert designers. And then the new person wants to ask how to do something so they ask this person

...

 

 

Yes, that's the problem. I can't remember if I already said this on the forum or if it was only in a PM but any viewer interface that would be friendly and accomodating to people not familiar with SL would have to be so fundamentally different from all current and previous official and TPV viewers it would alienate existing experienced users. I do actually think that the v1 interface was better designed than v2+ but only marginally so and besides, it's far more outdated. So going back to it is not an option.

There is no solution or compromise here, it's a choice between two evils. If LL wants to attract a significant number of new users and become a serious competitor to more recent virtual world projects, they will have to take a chance and come up with a viewer with a completely different UI that is guaranteed to drive many current users away. If they want to play it safe and retain as much as possible of their current clientelle, they have to play it safe and keep the current UI with no major changes. So far they have gone for the safe option and I think I would have done the same if I was them.

[Profaitchikenz Haiku]

6 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

Yes, that's the problem. I can't remember if I already said this on the forum or if it was only in a PM but any viewer interface that would be friendly and accomodating to people not familiar with SL would have to be so fundamentally different from all current and previous official and TPV viewers it would alienate existing experienced users.

Since all of us have managed to adapt to the existing range of UIs I don't think the UI as such is the off-putting thing for new user. What I do think is that there should be ways to simplify the controls so that a new user just gets what they need initially to move around, communicate with other, and rummage through their inventory. More complex operations could be activated once they actually get the need for them.

What I think is one of the worst items of all is the default LL camera control, which is large and unwieldy for what it actually needs to do, grabbing a huge chunk of the screen with no ability to resize it or customize it to show only what the user actualy wants to be quickly available.

 

However, I still think the biggest driver-off-of-newcomers isn't the UI, it's things to do, or lack of them.

[Arielle Popstar]

1 hour ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

We could re-do the UX using the best policies and modern techniques by expert designers. And then the new person wants to ask how to do something so they ask this person:

I'd bet an expert designer who had some inkling of best policies and modern techniques would have put a working CTRL+Z, revert, backspace button in like they do most 3d graphic tools and viewers. That alone would avert or minimize a multitude of problems with viewers in simply being able to step back to a previous state of dress when one presses the wrong button or does something unintended. Just crazy that after 18+ years of trying to make the viewer simpler for a new person, noone seems to have thought of that small and simple thing.

[SarahKB7 Koskinen]

I am about to make that little Camera HUD built in your viewer completely obsolete, for people with two functioning hands at least. The steps I will describe below will make your control of the camera much quicker and give more freedom of movement too;

 

Step 1: You can move the camera view using the PC keyboard's left Alt key while holding the Left Mouse Button down together while moving the mouse (with the right hand) in various single or multiple directions.

This easy combination of Alt and Left Mouse Button moves the camera both in and out while moving the mouse either forwards or backwards.

Swinging the camera view around clockwise and anti-clockwise is just as easy, use Alt and Left Mouse Button while moving the mouse either left or right.

This can be done at any speed necessary, depending on the speed of your left, right, up and down mouse movements.

THEN after mastering that, another keyboard key can then be used in conjunction to change the camera's tilt....

 

Step 2: Let me introduce you to the Ctrl key. You'll notice that Ctrl and Alt keys are very close to each other on a PC keyboard. Both can be used simultaneously with two fingers of your left hand, while your right hand is over your mouse.

The Ctrl key controls the Tilt of the camera when Ctrl, Alt and Left Mouse Button are used together. Conveniently, Ctrl, Alt and Mouse have the initials "C.A.M." (!)

Moving the Mouse forwards or backwards, while "CAM-ming" (!), you will tilt the camera upwards or downwards.

Releasing Ctrl will stop tilting, and reverts to basic in/out and swinging the camera around, as described in Step 1.

 

Step 3 (optional): Between your mouse's left and right buttons is (usually) a Scroll Wheel.  When rolled forwards or backwards this Scroll Wheel, rolled on its own, will cause the camera view to zoom in or zoom out.

Rolling the  Scroll Wheel all the way backwards will take you into Mouse Look, a first-person perspective view that you can steer freely with your mouse.

 

See? It's easy! And so fast and fluid too! Now close that horrible little camera HUD and please never use it again!

Edited November 19, 2021 by SarahKB7 Koskinen

[Rowan Amore]

But it's so much easier to use the camera controls one-handed while drinking coffee with the other.  Different strokes for different folks.  That's why there are options.

[ChinRey]

26 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

But it's so much easier to use the camera controls one-handed while drinking coffee with the other.

Oh yes, I'm sure lots of users old and new would appreciate a one-handed navigation option and not only for drinking coffee.

I mean, some people prefer tea you know.

 

Edited November 19, 2021 by ChinRey

[Adam Spark]

On 10/31/2021 at 4:04 PM, Ayeleeon said:

SL can be as complex or as easy as you want to make it. It seems to me the biggest problem with newbies is they want to jump right to the most complex version right from the start. If they use that starter avi. take thngs slow, upgrade as they figure it all out it wouldn't be that hard. Few people have the patience for that though.

This. Too many people make the same mistake I did. I joined in Oct. 2006. By January of 2007, I was was working for a venue. By Spring I was running the place. It found its way into my lap and things went downhill from there. The venue was open less than a year after that and I nearly gave up on SL in early 2009. I was doing more in SL than I had any business doing. I was trying to run a venue before I knew had to put two basic cube prims together side by side using simple math for precision placement. The keys to an easier time in SL:

First discover what it is - a platform, not a game. The only time you are playing a game while logged in is when you are sitting down and playing something like Greedy - an actual game, played within the platform we call Second Life.

Then, take your time to learn the following basics:

- How to walk, run, jump, fly and land

-Bringing up menus by right clicking on objects

-How to manipulate the camera with the basic default camera controls

-Use mouselook

-How to view inventory, read notecards and use landmarks

-how to buy items. You can start with freebies. Don't worry about linden dollars yet.

-how to use inventory to change your clothes

Do this first. If you are helping others, insist they do all this first. Don't skimp over the basics just because you are way past it. You are doing them a disservice by just teleporting them to your club or your favorite hangout and telling them how to sit and join your conversation. I see too many people doing things on day two that they would be well advised to not be doing in their first month here because the basics were glossed over.

 

[Rowan Amore]

[Silent Mistwalker]

1 hour ago, Rowan Amore said:

But it's so much easier to use the camera controls one-handed while drinking coffee with the other.  Different strokes for different folks.  That's why there are options.

I'll never understand why people would want to control their avatar in SL the same way they do in MMOs. I like my one handed control. It lets me know I'm not in a game so I don't have to worry about some jerk blindsiding me when I'm not even participating in combat at the time. One of SL's strongest points is the fact that it is so different from actual games.

[Rowan Amore]

2 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

I'll never understand why people would want to control their avatar in SL the same way they do in MMOs. I like my one handed control. It lets me know I'm not in a game so I don't have to worry about some jerk blindsiding me when I'm not even participating in combat at the time. One of SL's strongest points is the fact that it is so different from actual games.

I've never played games...ever. Unless you count Freddy Fish with my son when he was younger so I came to SL with no preconceived idea of how it SHOULD be.    My laptop has always had arrow keys which I have always used for SL to move.  The camera controls onscreen is just more intuitive for me.  Move with one hand.  Cam with one hand.  Type with 2.

[Profaitchikenz Haiku]

15 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

My laptop has always had arrow keys which I have always used for SL to move.  The camera controls onscreen is just more intuitive for me.  Move with one hand.  Cam with one hand.  Type with 2.

Ditto. I have no real gripes about the viewer, apart from

When I've been going to and fro in the inventory and I then see something in world like a rapidly advancing train I need to get away from I'll tap the up arrow a couple of times but the ***** focus is still in the inventory and all the folder positions I've so carefully set up get lost as the entire inventory structure gets collapsed  to one smug little top-level folder grinning at me with a "Now see what you made me do" expression. And I get hit by the train.

Oh, and did I mention the camera controls?

But neither of those would lead to me flouncing out of SL and going back to the train simulators.

And if you think the SL interface is clumsy, go to something like Trainz where you need an A4 sheet beside you with all the key-presses on it...

[Rowan Amore]

1 minute ago, Profaitchikenz Haiku said:

Ditto. I have no real gripes about the viewer, apart from

When I've been going to and fro in the inventory and I then see something in world like a rapidly advancing train I need to get away from I'll tap the up arrow a couple of times but the ***** focus is still in the inventory and all the folder positions I've so carefully set up get lost as the entire inventory structure gets collapsed  to one smug little top-level folder grinning at me with a "Now see what you made me do" expression. And I get hit by the train.

Oh, and did I mention the camera controls?

But neither of those would lead to me flouncing out of SL and going back to the train simulators.

And if you think the SL interface is clumsy, go to something like Trainz where you need an A4 sheet beside you with all the key-presses on it...

I can always tell the gamers because they're the ones who still Jump when switching to IM from moving.  Another good feature of using arrows to move.  

The focus thing did used not mess me up but over much time, I've gotten used to checking before clicking.

[Jennifer Boyle]

 

2 hours ago, ChinRey said:

There is no solution or compromise here, it's a choice between two evils. If LL wants to attract a significant number of new users and become a serious competitor to more recent virtual world projects, they will have to take a chance and come up with a viewer with a completely different UI that is guaranteed to drive many current users away. If they want to play it safe and retain as much as possible of their current clientelle, they have to play it safe and keep the current UI with no major changes.

Why are these mutually exclusive? Why can't a viewer have multiple user-selecable interfaces?

[Profaitchikenz Haiku]

Just now, Rowan Amore said:

I can always tell the gamers because they're the ones who still Jump when switching to IM from moving. 

Back in 2010 when I was a full-time RPer and most of us used V1 viewers,  a strange new phenomenon emerged: a player would suddenly leap a few metres in the air instead of responding to what had just been posted.

It turned out that they were using a new LL viewer, Viewer2, that implemented a "If you didn't click to set focus in the local chat window I'll assume you actually wanted to move around the world" dictum.

What they had laboriously typed was not uttered and so they had to click in the chat window and  equally laboriously type it in again.

I puzzled over why Para-player were the least affected by this Viewer2 behaviour , but it turned out that most of them composed their posts in Word and then copied and pasted it into the chat window.

[Nick0678]

2 minutes ago, Profaitchikenz Haiku said:

Back in 2010 when I was a full-time RPer and most of us used V1 viewers,..

I believe most of us used Emerald at that time, Viewer 2 was horrible and never managed to become the new standard.

[Profaitchikenz Haiku]

6 minutes ago, Nick0678 said:

I believe most of us used Emerald

Certainly I did, as did most of those I knew, mainly because the viewer tags at the time showed you who was using what. Subsequently LL banned the display of viewer information, I dont dispute their reasons r actions, but you could still see who was on Viewer2 most of the time because of the leaps and bounds.

[ChinRey]

5 hours ago, Nick0678 said:

I believe most of us used Emerald at that time, Viewer 2 was horrible and never managed to become the new standard.

Viewer 2 certainly is the standard now. All later versions of the official viewer and Firestorm are extensions of the v2 viewer code and interface. Fs also offers optional interfaces emulating Viewer 1 of course but the default is v2.

Edited November 20, 2021 by ChinRey

[Theresa Tennyson]

5 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

I'd bet an expert designer who had some inkling of best policies and modern techniques would have put a working CTRL+Z, revert, backspace button in like they do most 3d graphic tools and viewers. That alone would avert or minimize a multitude of problems with viewers in simply being able to step back to a previous state of dress when one presses the wrong button or does something unintended. Just crazy that after 18+ years of trying to make the viewer simpler for a new person, noone seems to have thought of that small and simple thing.

You mean like the "Undo Changes" button in "Edit My Outfit"?

[Nick0678]

8 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

Viewer 2 certanly is the standard now. All later versions of the official viewer and Firestorm are extensions of the v2 viewer code and interface. Fs also offers optional interfaces emulating Viewer 1 of course but the default is v2.

 

Of course and 10 years later it's still horrible.. 

Anyway most people who prefer the 1.23 will install Firestorm and choose the Legacy skin or CoolVL. Personally though i don't even care, i make my own.

[Chris Corvinus]

6 hours ago, ChinRey said:

Oh yes, I'm sure lots of users old and new would appreciate a one-handed navigation option and not only for drinking coffee.

I mean, some people prefer tea you know.

 

Thank god for that second sentence. I hope those who nosedived into the gutter are doing ok.