Is SL too hard for newbies?

[cunomar]

My entry to the SL world .

I installed the viewer logged in went through some childish assault course walk/run/jump and fly through some hoops kinda thing and then i was stumped , what next ?

Not sure how i got there but i now know i must have found a tp door or something ?

I landed on like a concrete platform in the sky with pillars and arches that i could do a full lap of in 20 seconds , and i was stuck there for an hour .

I logged out and uninstalled the viewer for good , though of course it wasn't or else i wouldn't be here now .

I did the same i don't know how many times because of the nagging clueless thought - there must be more than this ?

People who looked like me (newbie) would land and vanish . Where do they go , how do they go ?

I pressed every tab on the viewer with no idea what i was trying to find I ended up staring at the search box wondering what i should search for .

"Femdom" won that argument because it was fun even if i expected no results .

Then there was a week or two of wandering mostly empty sims .

While nobody would call me shy i am considerate so unwilling to interfere, i was watching a mistress with her slave when much to my surprise she told me to kneel . Up to this point nobody had spoke to me even in reply .

I asked her slave in private how i kneel ?

He told her and she knew she had a genuine newbie to mold lol .

I got a half hour crash course in how fun/kinky SL could be and with that i had found a mentor of incredible patience . The kinky stuff didn't last long because while trying to teach me how to dress and stuff she claimed to have come to view me as more like a brother or something .

I guess the fact she wouldn't add me but could always find me whenever she wanted to added to the mystery .

She dropped me into a suitable populated sim full of experienced players who were good at pretending to be friendly and public chat was common .

My SL had begun . Even had me convinced it was much more than a game for a while .

Edited October 31, 2021 by cunomar

[Coffee Pancake]

2 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

It means real jobs where you make real money so that you have it to spend on all the things you want that other people have in this world. Many people are from the poor world of the East or South, not the rich world of the West and North.

We already have that, where do you think all the stuff came from.

[Prokofy Neva]

28 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

We already have that, where do you think all the stuff came from.

I'm not sure if your vision of the Metaverse extends out beyond 64 m.

I'm also not certain if you grasp that not everyone has six-figure incomes from the tech industry, either. 

[Nick0678]

1 hour ago, cunomar said:

My entry to the SL world ....

.... My SL had begun . Even had me convinced it was much more than a game for a while .

Ahhh. yes. I remember my days of being a noob and how the process of learning SL was for me.

When i  registered my first avatar, it rezzed in one of those Linden welcome centers (or whatever they were called) where it was just me and a bunch of other noobs around practically not doing anything.

Not knowing what this game was about or how it's played i fooled around with the user interface and eventually clicked "search",  the first thing to do was write my country in the search box. There were plenty of results and i went to the first one. Over there i found plenty of people and we had a chat on voice since it's much easier than writing.

The next day i rezzed  there and found a woman who was also a noob like me so we played SL together looking for free clothes and trying to "fix" our avatars.

Time flies so around 1:30am we found ourselves still chatting and after a while she whispered to me that i should keep on talking.

Hmm why,  i asked.

I like the way you talk and the tone of your voice A LOT, she replied.

That's nice  but i can hear you doing something, i said.

Yes i am, she said.

OK but if you really are, then open skype and show me what you are doing.

She did and from that moment i knew that i would enjoy Second Life. That incident "motivated" me to learn how SL works...

It wasn't easy BUT it was worth it..

[rasterscan]

The lab should introduce a whole new new user experience. A free quality avatar and a free quality private home for the first week. Auto eviction to social island after the 7 days is up if they don't want the premium experience. Auto ruth / roth 'em too, tightwads.

Edited October 31, 2021 by rasterscan

[Hooten Haller]

When I invite a friend into Second Life, I cannot find them. It takes something like 24 hours before they’re added to the search results. So for their first day on-Grid they are cast adrift without a way to reach the one person they know from first life who can help them. Oh sure, I worked around it a bit by emailing them a SLURL to me, but those aren’t exactly easy to use either. Paid Mentors are nice, but your friends should be able to connect with you immediately. That scales much better.

[Wulfie Reanimator]

On 10/30/2021 at 4:34 PM, Nalates Urriah said:

It isn't the SL game/system/viewer that needs to change. It is people's expectations about what they are getting into that needs change. How do you change how the world thinks about SL?

The viewer definitely needs to change, it seems like such an unintuitive mess (talking about Firestorm here, but the official one doesn't get any bonus points either) and I'm basically operating on instinct. I just know where things are... after having been here for 15 years. I don't think there's any single hobby I've held for as long as SL, besides gaming in general.

Regarding people's expectations though.. what are they? I can think of basically two groups: boomers and zoomers. (affectionate terms)

The boomers are either people like me who have been here for way too long, or know just about how to interact with computers to create an account, download/install the viewer, and log in.

After that, the viewer becomes a brick wall regardless of what they think SL will be for them. (Or maybe not, if they don't have the conditioning of modern interactive media design, but I have no idea what their 'misaligned expectations' could be.)

The zoomers already know how to do all that and most likely have experience from other games. Some of them will bring a lot of assumptions and realize SL is not for them (which is fine, and definitely not their fault), and others will understand it's a sandbox game. Second Life is not unique in what it does.

The zoomers will also run into problems with the viewer's controls. Arrow keys to move by default? E to jump?? No rebindable keys??? I have to hold 1-3 keys (using both hands) to look around?? The camera can just detach and fly off on its own??? But it only zooms into a specific point I have to click on???? All these weird floating windows (Conversations, Inventory, Camera Controls, Nearby Avatars, Profiles, Edit Tools) all over my screen? There's an address bar at the top? Is this a web browser or an operating system??

All viewers that currently exist are a hot mess that we've just learned to live with. I'm glad the pie-menu isn't still the default despite me refusing to switch away from it because I've spent too much effort developing the muscle memory required to use it.

 

And I'm not saying "the viewer is THE problem," there are many, many more problems and many of the biggest ones have already been mentioned. Fixing the viewer won't solve the problem on its own.

 

20 hours ago, animats said:

Next generation of Roblox clothing on new-style avatars. It's not just blocks any more.

Stop making me want to go back to Roblox! I don't even remember anything about Lua anymore!! (Does it even use Lua anymore?)

Edited October 31, 2021 by Wulfie Reanimator

[Profaitchikenz Haiku]

There's several classes of users I've spotted.

One group want a home and privacy, if you try to greet them and ask them questions they clam up and often TP off or log, they don't like prying. SL for them is going to be a retreat, somewhere that they feel safe and secure and un-threatened.

The next group wants to socialise, they'll respond well to a greeting. They're the easiest.

The third group don't know what they want, they want something, but they're inhibited from exploring for various reasons.  You can often talk to them, they'll sometimes respond, but as to what they want, they're like me when I go shopping for Christmas presents, I go into a shop and the assistant asks me if they can help me and I  have to say "even if you could read my mind it wouldn't help because I have no idea what I'm looking for, but I'll know it when I see it". The more you try and help them with advice and suggestions, the more you're going to make them back away.

And then there's the group who want to run before they can walk "how do I upload a blender model of the USS Enterprise" - "I want to be James Bond and slaughter evil-doers", "dude, where's my AK-47?"

I don't think SL is much harder for newcomers than it's ever been, but I think the attitude of existing populace to them is perhaps a bit skewed towards the "newcomers should learn what to do before they come into my field of vision"

Yes, they can be gauche, irritating, a bit of a pain, but you can actually learn a lot from going outside your own comfort envelope every now and then.

Edited October 31, 2021 by Profaitchikenz Haiku

[Ayeleeon]

SL can be as complex or as easy as you want to make it. It seems to me the biggest problem with newbies is they want to jump right to the most complex version right from the start. If they use that starter avi. take thngs slow, upgrade as they figure it all out it wouldn't be that hard. Few people have the patience for that though.

[Lindal Kidd]

4 hours ago, Hooten Haller said:

When I invite a friend into Second Life, I cannot find them. It takes something like 24 hours before they’re added to the search results. So for their first day on-Grid they are cast adrift without a way to reach the one person they know from first life who can help them. Oh sure, I worked around it a bit by emailing them a SLURL to me, but those aren’t exactly easy to use either. Paid Mentors are nice, but your friends should be able to connect with you immediately. That scales much better.

I have put a few newbies in touch with the RL friend who invited them, or the class whose professor included SL as part of the curriculum. But they must know an in-world user name, or a region name, in the case of the class, for me to help them.

If you invite people to SL, be sure to let them know your user name, so they can look YOU up.

[Profaitchikenz Haiku]

29 minutes ago, Ayeleeon said:

If they use that starter avi. take thngs slow, upgrade as they figure it all out it wouldn't be that hard. Few people have the patience for that though.

Therein lies some of the problem, the starter avi is instantly recognisable and the first thing many will want to do is customise it so they can pick themselves out from all the other starter avis (how does a duck know... how to tell his wife from all the other ducks?)

The other thing is, not many games pastimes require you to do a week's training first. Install Auran Trainz, unfold the cheat-card, and you can be on a train inside of five minutes.

Edited October 31, 2021 by Profaitchikenz Haiku

[Profaitchikenz Haiku]

4 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

o they can look YOU up.

Here's looking at you, kid...

[Echelon Alcott]

On 10/30/2021 at 2:22 PM, Coffee Pancake said:

BRING BACK MENTORS AND LIVE HELP

We are the mentors and the live help, for the ones who find the community forums.

LL employees working as mentors and live help are a cost. A very common mechanism to deflect costs, employed by any larger company, is the setup of forums like this one, where people can get help through the community, at low/minimal cost to the company.

Take as an example my situation yesterday, where I was attempting to setup Resizable BAR on my computer to improve SL performance; in the process of updating my NVIDIA VBIOS, Precision X1 failed and a dire error message told me to NOT reboot the computer until I was able to reach NVIDIA technical support. Well, NVIDIA tech support is only available Mon-Fri business hours Pacific time, so I was stuck. I managed to find the solution perusing the NVIDIA forums.

We have the ability to help people on a volunteer basis. I believe LL will only bring back a formal mentoring and live help program if they can do it at low/minimal cost.

[Rolig Loon]

6 minutes ago, Echelon Alcott said:

We have the ability to help people on a volunteer basis.

Yes.  Many of us have been doing that in Answers and other parts of the forums as long as we have been in SL. That sort of support is not only zero cost for LL, it also has the advantage that many of us have had more years of experience actually using the viewers and handling bizarre problems in world than most Lindens do.  Residents also have more experience with TPVs. By and large, we have a longer "corporate" memory than paid employees, and we know where all sorts of arcane information is buried in forums, wikis, and odd web sites.  ( And we're mostly nice people.   )

The downside, of course, is that resident helpers can be loose cannons, and they can be founts of misinformation. To a degree, we correct each other when one of us gives advice that is out of date, incomplete, or totally off the wall, but a thread that attracts competing bits of advice can be really confusing. And then there's the issue of necrothreads, some of which are very useful and some of which are horribly outdated and misleading -- and newbies can't tell which is which.

[Echelon Alcott]

On 10/30/2021 at 5:07 AM, Naiman Broome said:

I had really a hard time getting to understand all the new upgrades with the bodies to look good, reaally a lot of patience from a friend of mine explaining me how to and a lot of time testing stuff...

Its not that easy pike buying a chair and rez it ...

Is this keeping new people from joining SL? Especially since their first approach with game seem to be nooblevel areas, noob level avatars and difficulty in the learning curve?

When I first joined SL many years ago, it was with a corporate purpose/perspective. Back at the height of SL growth, many corporations were trying to better understand what were the possibilities that LL was opening with SL and how best leverage the technology. Even 14 years ago, it was a challenge to educate, guide and bring people up-to-speed on how to use SL. And these were people who had a professional interest in learning about SL.

When we consider casual users who are simply looking for another entertainment channel, I believe we have many berriers for entry. A few come to my mind:

• minimum HW requirements: we see in the technical general discussion forum individuals with outdated HW equipment experiencing difficulties
• viewer complexity: the viewers are complex due to the nature of the technology, and the fact that a lot of the complexity is exposed through the UI to enable more advanced UI/UX customization; Apple is generally successful at providing a reasonable UX experience by dumbing down the UI and hiding a lot of the technological complexity, which in many cases frustrate the more tech savvy crowd
• SL complexity: my experience is that avatar controls in-world are overwhelming for noobs
• avatar customization: there was a learning curve to customize classic avatars; in my opinion it is impossible for a noob to figure by himself/herself how to put a good mesh avatar together without guidance, which raised the entry bar further higher

And others on this thread brought up so many other valid points. So the TLDR; version is yes, SL is not easy and it is not for ̶e̶v̶e̶r̶y̶o̶n̶e̶ most people in its current state.

Just my 2 cents.

 

PS.: how do I strikethrough text in this editor?

Edited October 31, 2021 by Echelon Alcott

[Coffee Pancake]

30 minutes ago, Echelon Alcott said:

• HW requirements: we see in the technical general discussion forum individuals with outdated HW equipment experiencing difficulties

Made even more difficult when users, seeing the SL looks like a game, bring a gaming PC and find it runs badly.

It's demoralizing to find out they brought a drag racer to the party when they should have brought a dump truck.

30 minutes ago, Echelon Alcott said:

• viewer complexity: the viewers are complex due to the nature of the technology, and the fact that a lot of the complexity is exposed through the UI to enable more advanced UI/UX customization; Apple is generally successful at providing a reasonable UX experience by dumbing down the UI and hiding a lot of the technological complexity, which in many cases frustrate the more tech savvy crowd

This is something we struggle with making Catznip. We're loathed to add check boxes and options for everything under the sun , preferring to go with sane defaults and limiting a features exposure till the moment of intended use.

But we also have to cater to LL viewer users and FS users who have an expectation of where everything is located.

 

30 minutes ago, Echelon Alcott said:

• SL complexity: my experience is that avatar controls in-world are overwhelming for noobs

This is a design language issue.

Devices and applications in general have an unspoken language inherent in the design, control placement and operation of the device. This becomes ingrained and expected.

SL needs to talk the same language as video games, and it doesn't.

30 minutes ago, Echelon Alcott said:

• avatar customization: there was a learning curve to customize classic avatars; in my opinion it is impossible for a noob to figure by himself/herself how to put a good mesh avatar together without guidance, which raised the entry bar further higher

This desperately needs to be addressed by the Lab.

There is no excuse for newbies to be presented with potato avatar from 18 years ago, or a singleton fully dressed starter avatar when that's not how SL is used.

 

30 minutes ago, Echelon Alcott said:

PS.: how do I strikethrough text in this editor?

Make your browser window wider and more editor icons will appear

Magic!

[Hooten Haller]

19 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said:

If you invite people to SL, be sure to let them know your user name, so they can look YOU up.

Ah yes, did that. We ran into using search (UI complexity), the really bad performance of the search window, how do you then use the search result to get to me or message me (further UI complexity). Even finding the IM window, particularly after it had collapsed into a chicklet button at the top right, had to be carefully explained. 

[Rowan Amore]

In reply to the OP,  yes.

It was difficult for me 12 years ago.  I had barely used a computer back.then for anything more.than surfing the web.  No gaming background whatsoever.   I managed.  I made mistakes.  I wore a box for hours before someone helped me.  Didn't know how to sit or tp.  Had no clue there was an IM function.  Don't even get me started on dressing my avatar or wearing something besides system hair for months.  But you know what?  I figured it out.  I asked for help.  I'm still here.

I didn't come expecting anything to be easy but then I'm not the type to think everything will be easy or it should be because I don't want to work for it.  Not the "I want it NOW" attitude.

Yes, avatar creation has become more.complex but we all.seemed to figure it out.  We even had to overcome our years of doing it another way.  At least new people start with a clean slate.  To me, that makes it easier.

[Nalates Urriah]

On 10/31/2021 at 9:26 AM, Wulfie Reanimator said:

The viewer definitely needs to change, it seems like such an unintuitive mess (talking about Firestorm here, but the official one doesn't get any bonus points either) and I'm basically operating on instinct. I just know where things are... after having been here for 15 years. I don't think there's any single hobby I've held for as long as SL, besides gaming in general.

Regarding people's expectations though.. what are they? I can think of basically two groups: boomers and zoomers. (affectionate terms)

The boomers are either people like me who have been here for way too long, or know just about how to interact with computers to create an account, download/install the viewer, and log in.

After that, the viewer becomes a brick wall regardless of what they think SL will be for them. (Or maybe not, if they don't have the conditioning of modern interactive media design, but I have no idea what their 'misaligned expectations' could be.)

The zoomers already know how to do all that and most likely have experience from other games. Some of them will bring a lot of assumptions and realize SL is not for them (which is fine, and definitely not their fault), and others will understand it's a sandbox game. Second Life is not unique in what it does.

The zoomers will also run into problems with the viewer's controls. Arrow keys to move by default? E to jump?? No rebindable keys??? I have to hold 1-3 keys (using both hands) to look around?? The camera can just detach and fly off on its own??? But it only zooms into a specific point I have to click on???? All these weird floating windows (Conversations, Inventory, Camera Controls, Nearby Avatars, Profiles, Edit Tools) all over my screen? There's an address bar at the top? Is this a web browser or an operating system??

All viewers that currently exist are a hot mess that we've just learned to live with. I'm glad the pie-menu isn't still the default despite me refusing to switch away from it because I've spent too much effort developing the muscle memory required to use it.

 

And I'm not saying "the viewer is THE problem," there are many, many more problems and many of the biggest ones have already been mentioned. Fixing the viewer won't solve the problem on its own.

 

Stop making me want to go back to Roblox! I don't even remember anything about Lua anymore!! (Does it even use Lua anymore?)

An intuition is an assumption based on an expectation… Intuitions are based on our mental model of the world and our expecting certain fundamental concepts to be consistent across various scenarios. When they aren’t our intuition fails.

To move a person from a RL 3D world they navigate and operate in without thought to a computer representation of a 3D world represented on a 2D display device with 2D controls and an abstract third dimension we deal with in our mind is never going to have base RL concepts that can be brought to SL in some intuitive form.

That RL operating without thought took us years to learn. We developed motor skills before we were old enough to understand what we were doing. Thinking someone is going to learn SL’s control language (user interface) intuitively rather than taking some time and work isn’t reasonable. I think it fairly amazing so many have figured it out.

Every 3D game I have played in users have the same complaint. They want to know why movement and camera controls aren’t easier… more intuitive. Well… no poop. What key or mouse button do we press in RL to move forward? People are going to have to learn something that has no counterpart in RL.

There is also the expectation SL is a game with an objective and someway to level up, aka grind, and win. People can argue whether SL is a game or not. It’s like arguing RL is a game or not. I personally say neither are.

When one expects SL to be a game, they are of course confounded figuring it out. Their expectation is wrong and that screws with any intuitive ability they may have.

Where in RL is there anything that provides any concept of how a 3D model is built and used that would allow intuition to work?

Why do people think that because Minecraft works one way, that way will work for SL and be any more intuitive than what we have? People coming from Minecraft or any 3D game to SL have expectations. SL is far less restrictive and thus more complicated.

So… people always think there has to be an easier way. Fix the viewer. Make it easier to use. Sure. Try it.

The Lab has been working on making it easier for 18± years. They continuously run A-B tests and track new users to make decisions on what ACTUALLY works.

[Mari Moonbeam]

I used to help new people- a lot. Don't anymore - they are on the SL viewer ,which I can't understand , AND I think they don't easily see when people start a conversation with them.

The whole mesh body thing, I don't understand why there is no standard workflow. Not saying it should just be one click and done but I have watched videos  [why are so many voiced in a heavily accented baby voice]  , read makers blogs, begged creators, even paid 'consultants' for private tutoring   and find no standardized way to tell what order to use the various layers, alphas, appliers BOMs buttons  etc.

"It varies and doesn't always work the same" seems to be the one truth.

Not to do something fancy but just getting underwear on, getting clothes , eyes, lipstick to even appear. That's all I want - look at a chart - this body, that item -- here are the 35 steps in this order to make it work. IT's not the work it's the lack of standardized instructions.

There is something very  wrong IMO when you buy clothes marked for your unaltered brand body and there is no way to layer the clothes . Doesn't it make sense to have underwear NOT pop through? Not dancer feathers but a tiny bow on underwear .

And that you need to attach sooooo many appliers ,  layers etc to hide  your system eyes or attach a tattoo.

I joined through the CSI-NY portal, they had paid creators staff  welcome hubs and I could drop in and ask any question and then go back out exploring with the prim off my head etc .

Today, even IF Linden staffed hubs I can't see how they could do the most basic tutoring --"How can I wear my new body and clothes since I like this "game" and want to stay." It would take too long.

And then of course, if you get looking sharp and go to an event then you  have to dial down max complex to be able to move and know that just like you can't see others now , they can't see fancy new you anyway . [I am rarely over 80k and have an upgraded  1 year old macbookpro ].

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Naiman Broome]

Now the question , what could be done or should be done to simplify and yet keep the same quality we have reached for avatars so far? To simplify the user experience especially for noobs?

[Janet Voxel]

13 minutes ago, Naiman Broome said:

Now the question , what could be done or should be done to simplify and yet keep the same quality we have reached for avatars so far? To simplify the user experience especially for noobs?

I think @Coffee Pancakesaid it a while back. A free open source body and head for men and women that is on par with what is out there with a downloadable creators kit. Put it in everybody’s inventory.

There would be an uproar from creators, but people love their Maitreya, they would never switch…right?

Make putting it on and dressing it part of newbie island. That would go a long way. You’ve put users who want to look nice right off the bat on par with everybody else. You’ve also given users who log in with dreams of being the next great fashion designer a starting point. Two birds, one stone.

[Modulated]

42 minutes ago, Janet Voxel said:

I think @Coffee Pancakesaid it a while back. A free open source body and head for men and women that is on par with what is out there with a downloadable creators kit. Put it in everybody’s inventory.

There would be an uproar from creators, but people love their Maitreya, they would never switch…right?

Make putting it on and dressing it part of newbie island. That would go a long way. You’ve put users who want to look nice right off the bat on par with everybody else. You’ve also given users who log in with dreams of being the next great fashion designer a starting point. Two birds, one stone.

This, but I'd go a step further: Why doesn't LL partner with top body/head/clothing/hair/etc creators to offer out of the box put together avatars for a small fee. Offer them with a fee without premium tied to the offer.  I believe this would go over well and people would fork over the $$$$$$.

[Coffee Pancake]

27 minutes ago, Janet Voxel said:

I think @Coffee Pancakesaid it a while back. A free open source body and head for men and women that is on par with what is out there with a downloadable creators kit. Put it in everybody’s inventory.

There would be an uproar from creators, but people love their Maitreya, they would never switch…right?

Make putting it on and dressing it part of newbie island. That would go a long way. You’ve put users who want to look nice right off the bat on par with everybody else. You’ve also given users who log in with dreams of being the next great fashion designer a starting point. Two birds, one stone.

Most creators would just have a new body to target and export for, one they didn't need to beg or pirate a development kit for.

One of SL's strengths was always the level playing field presented to creators, anyone could rez a prim, make a store and start a business.

Now (and especially for fashion) the market is constrained by a core few who limit access to development kits and event space. It's created a market that's almost impossible for new creators to break into.

Go to any current event and you will see the same core creators time after time, look closely and you will see their alts and second brands too.

How does any new creator (or one who's not best friends with a gatekeeper) stand a chance.

2 minutes ago, Modulated said:

This, but I'd go a step further: Why doesn't LL partner with top body/head/clothing/hair/etc creators to offer out of the box put together avatars for a small fee. Offer them with a fee without premium tied to the offer.  I believe this would go over well and people would fork over the $$$$$$.

They have already demonstrated themselves untrustworthy and very willing to aggressively stitch up the market.

Any new LL body would need to be fully open source with free access to development kits and ability to create derivative works. It needs to be freely available to every single SL user and fully supported in the viewer.

[Profaitchikenz Haiku]

Are mesh bodies really the thing giving newcomers the hardest time? My impression from several of these types of threads is that most newcomers want to actually go somewhere, meet some people, do something (even if it's try to kill them with an AK-47). I mean, if the default female Daisy Dukes look was good enough for Lavender Storydel, i's good enough for most people who just want to go out and bug hell out of interact with the Slitizenry.

( Quite seriously, if that female look hadn't been quite acceptable, half of Lavender's troling research could have been snuffed out in fifteen seconds by giving her the typical look-it's-a-noob response. But they didn't, she got hours and hours of interaction.

Looks are not the major problem newcomers have to cope with.

Edited November 2, 2021 by Profaitchikenz Haiku