Buy Fee Change Discussion

[Jaylinbridges]

10 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Why are so many of you buying $L weekly? Save up and buy once a month. I mean, even before the hike i only bought once a month.

Wanna tell you a story
About the house rent blues
I come home one Friday
Had to tell the landlady I'da lost my job
She said that don't confront me
Long as I get my money next Friday
Now next Friday come I didn't get the rent
And out the door I went...

 

House Rent Blues/One Bourbon, One Scotch, One Beer

George Thorogood

from Amos Milburn and John Lee Hooker

=========================================

Some get paid weekly, and spend it all by Sunday morning...

Edited April 17, 2021 by Jaylinbridges

[bigmoe Whitfield]

8 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Why are so many of you buying $L weekly? Save up and buy once a month. I mean, even before the hike i only bought once a month. 

There is one thing I notice with a certain set of SL,   impulse buyers,  those that have it, come here and do it, so they never think about monthly.

[RunawayBunny]

13 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Why are so many of you buying $L weekly? Save up and buy once a month. I mean, even before the hike i only bought once a month. 

I am not sure why people doing it.. but my friends in SL usually buys L$ when they see something they like.. clothing, skin, hair etc.

Personal observation they usually have L$ under 100. They only buy L$ when they need something and they buy around required amount and.. most of them homeless no premium

[JennyD Cloud]

I buy weekly because quite simply i get paid weekly, my Sl rents are all weekly it kind of works. shouldn't be punished for buying weekly.

and for me to transfer to monthly now would mean accumulating £430 in one week to pay a month is far beyond my budget im not rich

Edited April 18, 2021 by JennyD Cloud

[Drake1 Nightfire]

42 minutes ago, JennyD Cloud said:

I buy weekly because quite simply i get paid weekly, my Sl rents are all weekly it kind of works. shouldn't be punished for buying weekly.

and for me to transfer to monthly now would mean accumulating £430 in one week to pay a month is far beyond my budget im not rich

If you can afford to drop $400+ a month in SL, you aint poor. 

My rent can be paid weekly, I choose to pay monthly. I save in $L fees that way. 

[Solar Legion]

1 hour ago, JennyD Cloud said:

I buy weekly because quite simply i get paid weekly, my Sl rents are all weekly it kind of works. shouldn't be punished for buying weekly.

and for me to transfer to monthly now would mean accumulating £430 in one week to pay a month is far beyond my budget im not rich

I'm not "rich" either. My yearly income is less than current US Federal Minimum Wage (before taxes and likely after as well).

My entire income each month is deposited at a specific date (not stating when) and thus I have to plan out my expenses.

At the price/cost point I do have to wonder if you're renting a sizable portion of a region or something .... Me,  most I could "reasonably" afford (on top of the Premium) is 1/8th of a region on my own (I currently rent 1/16th).

Put into financial terms on those numbers: $50 maximum, leaving no wiggle room for buying additional $L (currently $25, allowing for a little L$ wiggle room).

[LittleMe Jewell]

3 hours ago, Jaylinbridges said:

Some get paid weekly, and spend it all by Sunday morning...

There's a personal problem if I ever heard one.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

4 hours ago, JennyD Cloud said:

Personally i think this is disgusting because you are targeting those who spend the most money and will actually encourage them to spend less or leave this is especially insulting for premium members

I find this kind of reaction always very interesting, because it basically suggests that you feel you are buying the privilege of better treatment -- that, in effect, having money entitles you to special treatment.

In practice, of course, that is the way our mixed-capitalist system usually does work: pay more, and you get more and better affordances, rights, etc., and not just in SL. But to use words like "disgusting" and "insult" certainly implies that you believe that your monetary contributions give you an ethical right to better treatment. Paying money makes you "more important," somehow.

I think it's entirely valid to argue that it might be smart, from a business perspective, for LL to treat those who pay more better, but that's a view that hardly accommodates the ideas of "disgust" and "insult." You have not been "insulted," I don't think, nor have you any real justification for "disgust." LL has made a business decision. If you dislike it, because your money isn't buying you the status and respect you think it should, then you know what your option is.

In general, I think LL tends to handle this sort of thing quite well from a sort of community-oriented perspective: they generally try to avoid creating too obtrusive a class system in SL. It is usually not at all obvious (unless you look at the number of groups in someone's profile, for instance) who is premium, and who is not. I like that ethically, but I also just think it's healthier for SL's culture. Some of us get extra goodies if we pay more for premium (if not, why do it?), but on the surface we are all the same, all equal. It prevents the kind of bifurcation that mars intensely class-conscious cultures.

But, again, I don't think that's really about ethics. It's about making SL "work better" than it would otherwise. If we are talking about "fairness" and "ethics," here's what I'd like to see.

I want to see reduced fees and costs for the following classes of people (none of which, btw, would likely include me):

• People who are socio-economically disadvantaged
• People who, for reasons of disability or any other issue, are especially dependent upon SL for socialization and connection
• People who contribute in really quantifiable ways to the community and culture of SL as a whole -- e.g., they run a non-profit like Virtual Ability that helps people, or a mentoring / teaching area for new residents, or a region, art gallery, or whatever that benefits everyone.
• People who create cheap, accessible, and useful content for residents, not as a for-profit business, but in order to help others.

I can think of many instance of all of these things in SL. From a purely ethical standpoint -- if it's about fairness -- these are the people I'd like to see receive breaks from LL, not merely those who pay a lot of money into the company's coffers (although, in many case, these instances might overlap).

But, of course, that's not the way this works, is it? LL is caught, as are we all, in a system, a culture, that insists upon ROI. LL is not a charity or non-profit; to exist at all in our culture, it must generate a profit. And so "fairness" is at best a secondary consideration, if that.

Anyway, I'm sorry you feel "disgusted" and "insulted." I am, maybe, a bit dismayed -- but then I'm not paying LL on the assumption that it makes me in some way "elite."

[Bree Giffen]

I wonder about all the people who spend a lot but don't read the blog or this forum. This fee increase might come as a nasty surprise. I don't really buy lindens that often so I don't have much to object to. It's good to hear there is a real push happening to improve SL. 

[Mari Moonbeam]

Cost to buy  NYSE stocks  from large broker where multiple exchanges may be involved  $0, cost to have a cash card from a bank-- can add money and spend unlimited times in a month   $5.00/mo , Linden cost for ONE transaction in  an exchange they control $9.99. No, too high.

And why are they making a new viewer? Take the FS open source and make a simple version. Strip the options but leave the framework so new people don't have to learn two systems.

[Rachel1206]

7.5% fee sounds a little high, transaction fees are normally like 3%, when buying with a credit card or doing online transactions. I wish LL had used this model for their transaction fee.

I pay for a homestead rental around 72 US$ a month and just find it annoying that on future quarterly payments, I have to pay fee of 9.99 US$ direct to LL for "nothing". Don't get me wrong, I am premium member and pay my membership with joy supporting SL/LL.

I wonder what calculation models are behind the fee change, my prediction is, and they will adjust it down rather quick.

Why? Because like me, many will stop buying Linden$ and pay the landlord direct with the different online payment options and Linden Lab looses our fees we normally did paid monthly/quartile/annual. And just by looking around on the number of homestead size rentals around me, it is not small amount, which Linden Lab in the future will lose.

[Sassy Kenin]

On 4/15/2021 at 1:45 PM, Reed Linden said:

Hi! I'm Reed Linden. I am the product manager for our payments team!  Ask me anything about this. I'm here to help.

If your going to increase fee's this time you might consider offering perks such as buying so much lindens in a month allows access for a month to premium sandboxs or if you meet a certain amount in 6 months you get access to a premium gift. just tossing it out as a direction? the rewards could be something else.

For reasons many have already stated already so without having to be counter productive lets try to turn it into a positive situation by reimaging it as the Carrot 'n the stick approach, so if you can offer something back Tangible in return as a reward of some sorts this could be turned around to be something residents feel they are getting something back from and linden lab as well.

After all if you can't promise another tax hike will not happen again next year then why not have a system in place to help negate the negative effects?

Linden Rewards Card/Plan/Program?

 

It might be a silly idea it's the best tired eyes could come up with😳

[FairreLilette]

6 hours ago, JennyD Cloud said:

I buy 30k L per week plus i pay for premium that will be an extra $40 per month for me ( i have to buy weekly that's RL for you)... well not anymore 

You buy 30K linden a week?  That's about $500 hundred dollars a month on SL.  And, then in your next post you say you cannot afford to buy once a month because you get paid weekly?

JennyD Cloud, you need to start a savings account for your real life.  Spending $500 hundred dollars a month on SL and having no savings whatsoever for your real life is setting yourself up for complete disaster in case of any kind of real life emergency.  Get yourself a real life savings first.  Maybe this was a wake-up call for you.    

[JennyD Cloud]

3 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I find this kind of reaction always very interesting, because it basically suggests that you feel you are buying the privilege of better treatment -- that, in effect, having money entitles you to special treatment.

 

No what i mean is i'm already paying more than someone who spends very little in SL, i buy a lot of Lindens because i rent 4 homesteads as an airport for which rentals cover one homestead so im putting into my purse 25k a week for a community/service. this is budgeted for weekly. I went premium  to support LL i dont feel i have any kind of privilege but i do feel that those who give more to LL are being asked to give even more and those who give a little to LL are not giving anymore now that's just crazy, in any form of economics those who pay/buy more usually get a discount/pay less the notable exception being tax collection. Let me be clear what has angered me is not the fees themselves its the fact that the more you spend, the more you give to LL the more you are charged for this the old way was farer in that we all paid the same no matter what.  It really doesn't matter whether you agree or disagree with me this is my own personal view and reaction and there will be others that simply stop buying lindens because of this or may even leave all together, SL is fickle as it is given recent events and thousands losing their jobs 

Edited April 18, 2021 by JennyD Cloud

[JennyD Cloud]

1 hour ago, FairreLilette said:

You buy 30K linden a week?  That's about $500 hundred dollars a month on SL.  And, then in your next post you say you cannot afford to buy once a month because you get paid weekly?

JennyD Cloud, you need to start a savings account for your real life.  Spending $500 hundred dollars a month on SL and having no savings whatsoever for your real life is setting yourself up for complete disaster in case of any kind of real life emergency.  Get yourself a real life savings first.  Maybe this was a wake-up call for you.    

you're possibly right but at the time ( less so lately) Sl was here for me and saved me from a lot of things and it was nice to build things for others, ive never been good at saving :)) but maybe this is the time to  stop spending all this money ( i know people who do spend more , a LOT more)

Edited April 18, 2021 by JennyD Cloud

[Rejha Vuckovic]

OK Secondlife.

 

We in the European Union have to pay VAT additional to every payment, so between 17% - 27% more than anybody from America has to pay!

As far as I know no other Gaming Platform wants additional Fees / Pricing from Euopeans than Americans.

Same with Money Exchange

Now with Tilla the € to US$ Exchange Fee raise to >11% + 7,5% L$ to US$ fee = 18,5%!!!!!!!

Before Tilla the exchange fee was fair now it is usury, especially with these additional 7,5%!

 

What are we Euopeans for you?  Diary Cows you can milk for Money more than anybody else?

 

So the only thing we can do is stopping supporting the ecconomy, buying L$ and move to any other Gaming Platform wich don't see us a Diary Cow.

That is one of the reasons why Secondlife has less and less active players from Europe and people are moving in groups to other games as Covid has also impact at our money wallets.

[Alwin Alcott]

1 hour ago, Rejha Vuckovic said:

OK Secondlife.

 

We in the European Union have to pay VAT additional to every payment, so between 17% - 27% more than anybody from America has to pay!

 

if you have time read the posts about VAT, in the other thread?
VAT is your/our government to blame not Linden Lab

Edited April 18, 2021 by Alwin Alcott

[Rejha Vuckovic]

26 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

if you have time read the posts about VAT, in the other thread?
VAT is your/our government to blame not Linden Lab

I blame LL for letting us pay the EU Vat but not to reduce the Californian VAT ike it shoudl be. 

o we pay the VAT on Gross not on Net prices!

 

So to pay a Sim tier / fee I have to pay additional 37,5% on what US-Citizens have to pay!

19% VAT + 8,5% Echange Fee for Tilla / LL

 

So is it fair? Is it a EU law to pay VAT on Gross price?

No, it is on Net price, like most online shops and companies are doing.

No digital good buy on Ebay / Amazon from the USA I have to pay 37,5% additional.

 

And by the way:

Physical goods cost less than 22€ from the USA are VAT free but LL/Tilla charge us 30,25€ now only to exchange € to US$ !

 

This is a LL Decision, not EU regulations!

 

 

Edited April 18, 2021 by Rejha Vuckovic

[Alwin Alcott]

6 minutes ago, Rejha Vuckovic said:

I blame LL for letting us pay the EU Vat but not to reduce the Californian VAT ike it shoudl be. 

o we pay the VAT on Gross not on Net prices!

So to pay a Sim tier / fee I have to pay additional 37,5% on what US-Citizens have to pay!

19% VAT + 8,5% Echange Fee for Tilla / LL

So is it fair? Is it a EU law to pay VAT on Gross price?

No, it is on Net price, like most online shops and companies are doing.

No digital good buy on Ebay / Amazon from the USA I have to pay 37,5% additional.

And by the way:

Physical goods cost less than 22€ from the USA are VAT free but LL/Tilla charge us 30,25€ now only to exchange € to US$ !

This is a LL Decision, not EU regulations!

sorry, but you'r wrong on nearly all. Your points are based on emotions, not facts.
And fees are no taxes, it is LL's earning model.
Importing goods is also not free of tax, if not signaled by the Customs you are normally obligated to declare it yourself. ( of course nobody does that..) but it is law.

The only thing what;s in LL /Tillia's control is the hight of fees and exchange rate. Both start to look greedy.

Edited April 18, 2021 by Alwin Alcott

[Wulfie Reanimator]

I know I shouldn't look at this trainwreck of opinions but I can't look away.

Bless you @Reed Linden for your patience.

Edited April 18, 2021 by Wulfie Reanimator

[Phil Deakins]

5 hours ago, Mari Moonbeam said:

And why are they making a new viewer? Take the FS open source and make a simple version. Strip the options but leave the framework so new people don't have to learn two systems.

LOL. Firestorm IS the LL viewer. The FS people have modified it a bit, that's all. So LL already have the source code lol.

If new people used the viewer they got when they joined, instead of being waylaid into using Firestorm, they wouldn't need to learn the extra parts of Firestorm.

You've got it all totally the wrong way round.

[Love Zhaoying]

1) Let's say, I only buy L$20k-L$30k at a time, every 3-6 months. How will this impact me, vs. another user who buy smaller amounts less often? 
2) Does this impact both the scenario a) where you get the dialog "You don't have enough L$; Buy L$ to buy something now" exactly the same, as the scenario b) where you just go "Buy L$ now"? 
I ask because, I assume most casual users are a) primarily (only buy L$ when buying items).

 

[Mollymews]

45 minutes ago, Rejha Vuckovic said:

No digital good buy on Ebay / Amazon from the USA I have to pay 37,5% additional.

 

Prices listed on Amazon include all national, state and local taxes that are applicable to the transaction/sale

Amazon charge the tax (VAT in your case) to the sellers account (the entity that sold it you). From a bookkeeping pov the seller is Amazon's customer not you. You are the entity's customer.  In the case of their own product sales to you, Bookkeeper Amazon charges Seller Amazon the VAT. Bookkeeper Amazon then pays the VAT to the respective governments.

a thing about Amazon is that it uses a different pricing schedule for different locations even within the same country. Like if I buy the same product as you from the Amazon store, the listed price for me is in NZ dollars including GST. In your case is listed in EUR including VAT. We still pay the GST or VAT it just look like we don't as is not listed as $X plus VAT/GST. Is $X including VAT/GST. Same for Californians. The listed price is $X including sales tax

Linden/Tilia could change to the same type of price scheduling

if Linden/Tilia did the same as Amazon and listed Premium to me in NZD then I would see something like $NZ165.00 including GST

once Tilia gets going as it would like, I think it will go this way. One day I will only ever see everything quoted in my local currency. Premium, tier and L$ purchases

Edited April 18, 2021 by Mollymews
location within

[Love Zhaoying]

9 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

If new people used the viewer they got when they joined, instead of being waylaid into using Firestorm

@Phil Deakins - what about the "gateways" that attract new users, who start out on Third-Party Viewers? Surely not. Anyway, those users may start with Firestorm (or any gateway viewer) when they join. They aren't "waylaid" into it.
 

[Love Zhaoying]

After reading more of this thread, apparently L$ purchases should include a box of tissues to dry those bitter, privileged, tears.