Buy Fee Change Discussion

[Arduenn Schwartzman]

For now, you can compensate some of your future losses by buying Dogecoins. But better hurry. After 4/20, when it has reached its target of 69 US$ cents per coin, it will jump off a cliff, back to its original worth, 0.0001 cents per coin.

[Cynical Cloud]

13 hours ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Type the @ symbol followed by the person's name -- select them from the list that pops up.

Thank you

[Alwin Alcott]

25 minutes ago, Monger Lionheart said:

If you .....

ehm... where did you get all of that? It's "only" about buying L$ ... nothing more this moment.

[Monger Lionheart]

1 minute ago, Alwin Alcott said:

ehm... where did you get all of that? It's "only" about buying L$ ... nothing more this moment.

everything in SL is based upon the Linden; its currency. SO if the cost of a Linden increases how does that not effect the costs across the board? I rent a number of properties so therefore to pay for these lands i must buy Lindens. Now my cost to pay tier goes up. If I shop in SL (beside MP taking 10% from what I am told), those merchants must set up shop and pay tier so their costs go up. If Im a merchant and SELL my Lindens I assume the exchange rate will be in effect there as well? Sadly, I only BUY in SL and from my perspective my SL just got a large cost increase

[Alwin Alcott]

31 minutes ago, Monger Lionheart said:

everything in SL is based upon the Linden; its currency. SO if the cost of a Linden increases how does that not effect the costs across the board? I rent a number of properties so therefore to pay for these lands i must buy Lindens. Now my cost to pay tier goes up. If I shop in SL (beside MP taking 10% from what I am told), those merchants must set up shop and pay tier so their costs go up. If Im a merchant and SELL my Lindens I assume the exchange rate will be in effect there as well? Sadly, I only BUY in SL and from my perspective my SL just got a large cost increase

the costs for buying L$ raise, not the L$ itself. So you as renter (no tier) will have more costs, but your landlord not, because he gets the same amount as always.
Many merchants upped their prices to cover the sales tax... and LL is happy, because the get their 10% on that raise too.. so not the merchant pays.. but the buyer....again you! (we) .. The selling side of L$ doesn't change.

[bigmoe Whitfield]

for those wanting homesteads directly,  I suspect, the would be priced almost the same as a normal sim would be.    Jack and the team had to change how these were being handled back in the day,  it physically ran out servers for it,  aws they can spin up instances, but if they have more instances than money to pay for the instances,  can you see what the result would be?  I can.

[Monger Lionheart]

12 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

the costs for buying L$ raise, not the L$ itself. So you as renter (no tier) will have more costs, but your landlord not, because he gets the same amount as always.
Many merchants upped their prices to cover the sales tax... and LL is happy, because the get their 10% on that raise too.. so not the merchant pays.. but the buyer....again you! (we) .. The selling side of L$ doesn't change.

if a stipend is added to the cost of buying a linden, then a Linden costs more; simple. My current tier obligations are L$38200/wk, which today costs me $154.29. Next week that same purchase will cost me $165.85. An increase of $11.57/wk; $46.29/mo; $601.64/yr. This does no reflect Lindens needed to purchase items in SL either but obvious that is a sizable increase added as well. I am not commenting on my costs is SL but the INCREASED costs. Let me ask this? Will I have a $600 better experience???

[Alwin Alcott]

1 minute ago, Monger Lionheart said:

if a stipend is added to the cost of buying a linden, then a Linden costs more;

nope

[Rowan Amore]

5 minutes ago, Monger Lionheart said:

An increase of $11.57/wk

Which is less than some people spend on fancy coffee or cigarettes, alcohol, fast food in a day in RL.  Seems like a bargain for a weeks worth of SL.

Edited April 17, 2021 by Rowan Amore
Less instead of more

[Solar Legion]

Oh for ....

I am on a fixed income and you don't see me griping .....

All this means is yet another alteration to my patterns/amounts.

[Monger Lionheart]

4 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

nope

ok, is simpler terms. The state I live in charges $.51/gal tax on a gallon of gasoline. This gas costs $2.40/gal before tax is applied; so is my cost for that gallon of gas $2.40/gal or $2.91?

[Monger Lionheart]

4 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Which is more than some people spend on fancy coffee or cigarettes, alcohol, fast food in a day in RL.  Seems like a bargain for a weeks worth of SL.

You are comparing the increase in costs vs the overall costs of $23.57/day. That's a lot of fancy coffee in a day....lol

 

[FairreLilette]

16 minutes ago, Monger Lionheart said:

if a stipend is added to the cost of buying a linden, then a Linden costs more; simple. My current tier obligations are L$38200/wk, which today costs me $154.29. Next week that same purchase will cost me $165.85. An increase of $11.57/wk; $46.29/mo; $601.64/yr. This does no reflect Lindens needed to purchase items in SL either but obvious that is a sizable increase added as well. I am not commenting on my costs is SL but the INCREASED costs. Let me ask this? Will I have a $600 better experience???

Are you able to buy all your lindens for the month instead of weekly?  If once a month, it's $9.99.  And it's capped at $9.99 so if you can afford it you could buy two or three months worth at a time and for three months worth for example it doesn't go past $9.99.

I agree, this is a rather large jump.  $4.99 may have been better but in the discussion it was felt it was going to have to go to $9.99 anyways and sooner than later, so they felt there was no way around it.

I'm sorry this is stressing you out.  My SL has changed drastically too with EEP, as EEP is not working on older GPU's now and I'm not spending 1.5K for a GPU any time soon.  Price gouging is occurring for GPU's right now because of bitcoin/COVID/other issues.

 

Edited April 17, 2021 by FairreLilette

[Alwin Alcott]

8 minutes ago, Monger Lionheart said:

ok, is simpler terms. The state I live in charges $.51/gal tax on a gallon of gasoline. This gas costs $2.40/gal before tax is applied; so is my cost for that gallon of gas $2.40/gal or $2.91?

thats not the same. It;s no added tax but a seperate cost.
The cost in total raise ; yes
the value of L$ stays the same.

[Monger Lionheart]

1 minute ago, FairreLilette said:

Are you able to buy all your lindens for the month instead of weekly?  If once a month, it's $9.99.  And it's capped at $9.99 so if you can afford it you could buy two or three months worth at a time and for three months worth for example it doesn't go past $9.99.

I agree, this is a rather large jump.  $4.99 may have been better but in the discussion it was felt it was going to have to go to $9.99 anyways and sooner than later, so they felt there was no way around it.

I'm sorry.  My SL has changed drastically with EEP, as EEP is not working on older GPU's now and I'm not spending 1.5K for a GPU any time soon.  Price gouging for GPU's right now.

 

Well said Fairre, All Im saying is this is NOT a modest increase! This is a signifigant surcharge and will affect all who purchase considerable lindens

 

[Rowan Amore]

11 minutes ago, Monger Lionheart said:

You are comparing the increase in costs vs the overall costs of $23.57/day. That's a lot of fancy coffee in a day....lol

 

Exactly.  The increase of $11.57/wk is less than some people pay for other luxury items in RL per day.   So, an increase of $1.65 a day?  Really?

[Monger Lionheart]

3 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

thats not the same. It;s no added tax but a seperate cost.
The cost in total raise ; yes
the value of L$ stays the same.

As you said, the cost in total rises. So to the consumer/user, the experience cost has risen. In my case, over $600 US per year! As a consumer I ask this then, what will I get for this increased cost??? This tax needs a lower threshold to max out or a lower overall rate...just saying

 

[FairreLilette]

2 minutes ago, Monger Lionheart said:

As a consumer I ask this then, what will I get for this increased cost??? 

Reed said early on in the thread the higher cost is needed to hire more people to fix the problems as well as to build a new viewer (hopefully), a Vulcan viewer.  

[Monger Lionheart]

6 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Exactly.  The increase of $11.57/wk is less than some people pay for other luxury items in RL per day.   So, an increase of $1.65 a day?  Really?

Yes, $1.65/day seems a small amount; but we are talking the increase not the sum total increase. Wouldnt you complain if your coffee increased $1.65/day. We arent talking total cost we are talking the increase. None of you think an extra $600 per year is a large increase for the same product????

 

Edited April 17, 2021 by Monger Lionheart

[FairreLilette]

7 minutes ago, Monger Lionheart said:

None of you think an extra $600 per year is a large increase for the same product????

I think it is 'but' if you buy all your lindens for one month instead of weekly, and/or no matter the amount, it's $9.99....you could buy what you need for six months of lindens and it would be $9.99.  You could buy one million lindens and the cost would be $9.99.  So, if you don't need to buy weekly and/or can buy a whole lot at once your added cost will not be as high as you are quoting above.  

From the blog:

https://community.secondlife.com/blogs/entry/7770-infrastructure-investment-update-buy-fee-change-effective-april-22/

A: It depends on the size of your Linden Dollar purchase in each transaction. We worked to ensure that most casual purchases will see no change at all.

For example, smaller Linden Dollar purchases (roughly equivalent to about $20 USD or less*) will see no change in cost as the new $1.49 minimum charge is equivalent to the cost of the existing flat fee. 

As another example, a $40 USD purchase of approximately L$10,000*  would be charged a $3 “buy fee” (equal to 7.5% of $40). 

For larger Linden Dollar purchases (approximately $139 or higher*), the 7.5% fee will cap out at $9.99 maximum in a single transaction.

 

Edited April 17, 2021 by FairreLilette

[Orwar]

2 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Which is less than some people spend on fancy coffee or cigarettes, alcohol, fast food in a day in RL.  Seems like a bargain for a weeks worth of SL.

   Some people spend hundreds, if not thousands of dollars daily on food, entertainment, healthcare and beauty products, etc. Good for them, I guess? That doesn't mean that people with low incomes aren't affected by the new fees.

   It's not an issue of me not being able to 'afford' the new fees, but they will certainly impact how much I'll get out of SL for what I put into it. In simple terms, it lowers the value of what I put into SL, which is going to lower the amount I put in - almost certainly at a net loss for LL directly (from me, anyway). And with less L$ on hand, I'll have less to spend on creators' products, which is going to affect their incomes.

   To what extent, we'll just have to see. But the people affected aren't those who can afford to spend $11 on fast food and cigarettes on a daily basis, it's going to affect those who only have $11 or even less a day to live on. A quite large portion of the SL users are students and retirees, and unemployed people living on benefits or sick pension, and people in countries where the daily living costs are closer to $1 than $11. That the users from the American middle-class won't be able to put up with the changes isn't interesting, it's interesting which demographics will be affected to the point that they will reduce or stop contributing to the virtual economy of SL, and what the impacts of that will be in the long run.

   Not all people who are in SL consider it a luxury. I've met a lot of people who are in SL because their RL situation does not permit them to lead a 'normal' life and meet people as 'normal' people would, people who just want to experience everyday things that others could just step outside their houses to do, that they can't. Those will be the people that this affect the most.

   I'm far from the worst affected here, to me SL is entirely a luxury, and I could well do many of the things I do in SL in RL instead - at which point LL wouldn't get a dime out of me.

[Alwin Alcott]

13 minutes ago, Monger Lionheart said:

In my case, over $600 US per year!

so you buy at least weekly...
make that monthly and your cost will only rise 120 .. if you can bare a high amount on your account buy bi monthly and it will be only 60 usd.
Total cost.. you'll have to take the 90 dollars from the current cost off those amounts.

Edited April 17, 2021 by Alwin Alcott

[Rowan Amore]

12 minutes ago, Orwar said:

   Some people spend hundreds, if not thousands of dollars daily on food, entertainment, healthcare and beauty products, etc. Good for them, I guess? That doesn't mean that people with low incomes aren't affected by the new fees.

   It's not an issue of me not being able to 'afford' the new fees, but they will certainly impact how much I'll get out of SL for what I put into it. In simple terms, it lowers the value of what I put into SL, which is going to lower the amount I put in - almost certainly at a net loss for LL directly (from me, anyway). And with less L$ on hand, I'll have less to spend on creators' products, which is going to affect their incomes.

   To what extent, we'll just have to see. But the people affected aren't those who can afford to spend $11 on fast food and cigarettes on a daily basis, it's going to affect those who only have $11 or even less a day to live on. A quite large portion of the SL users are students and retirees, and unemployed people living on benefits or sick pension, and people in countries where the daily living costs are closer to $1 than $11. That the users from the American middle-class won't be able to put up with the changes isn't interesting, it's interesting which demographics will be affected to the point that they will reduce or stop contributing to the virtual economy of SL, and what the impacts of that will be in the long run.

   Not all people who are in SL consider it a luxury. I've met a lot of people who are in SL because their RL situation does not permit them to lead a 'normal' life and meet people as 'normal' people would, people who just want to experience everyday things that others could just step outside their houses to do, that they can't. Those will be the people that this affect the most.

   I'm far from the worst affected here, to me SL is entirely a luxury, and I could well do many of the things I do in SL in RL instead - at which point LL wouldn't get a dime out of me.

I do agree with most of what you've said.  I would consider myself.lower middle class as of now.  As I've said, I have drastically cut down on what I spend in SL recently.  Someone who can afford $150 a week for rent in SL is in a far better position than me.  I've gone from spending roughly $50/wk to maybe $10/wk.  SL in and of itself may not be a luxury for a lot of people as you've said.  Spending money here, however, is a luxury and just like luxuries in RL, if money is tight, you cut back on spending.  

People log in for free.  After that, anything and everything you choose to spend money on IS a luxury.

[FairreLilette]

43 minutes ago, Orwar said:

   Some people spend hundreds, if not thousands of dollars daily on food, entertainment, healthcare and beauty products, etc. Good for them, I guess? That doesn't mean that people with low incomes aren't affected by the new fees.

   It's not an issue of me not being able to 'afford' the new fees, but they will certainly impact how much I'll get out of SL for what I put into it. In simple terms, it lowers the value of what I put into SL, which is going to lower the amount I put in - almost certainly at a net loss for LL directly (from me, anyway). And with less L$ on hand, I'll have less to spend on creators' products, which is going to affect their incomes.

   To what extent, we'll just have to see. But the people affected aren't those who can afford to spend $11 on fast food and cigarettes on a daily basis, it's going to affect those who only have $11 or even less a day to live on. A quite large portion of the SL users are students and retirees, and unemployed people living on benefits or sick pension, and people in countries where the daily living costs are closer to $1 than $11. That the users from the American middle-class won't be able to put up with the changes isn't interesting, it's interesting which demographics will be affected to the point that they will reduce or stop contributing to the virtual economy of SL, and what the impacts of that will be in the long run.

   Not all people who are in SL consider it a luxury. I've met a lot of people who are in SL because their RL situation does not permit them to lead a 'normal' life and meet people as 'normal' people would, people who just want to experience everyday things that others could just step outside their houses to do, that they can't. Those will be the people that this affect the most.

   I'm far from the worst affected here, to me SL is entirely a luxury, and I could well do many of the things I do in SL in RL instead - at which point LL wouldn't get a dime out of me.

While I agree with you Orwar, I just cannot see SL would have had the ability to continue further into the 21st without a new viewer and that is going to cost money.  The time was due and I hope it comes to fruition.

However, some of us cannot afford GPU's at this time due to crazy people conflating the market, let alone any second-hand GPU could be garbage and be blown out.

For some of us, it's a take it slow time. 

I also don't want to spend money on a new GPU at this time until I know what the new specs for a new viewer are going to be.  

All-in-all though, I've heard about inflation happening in real life.  It is the worst time for inflation with fragile economies due to COVID.  I mean we may see banks are bankrupt and collapse again.  

It's a thought of Western society that entertainment and relaxation are necessary for our well being and good mental health.  I agree but some times things go and up and down like a roller coaster when it comes to affording what is considered entertainment.  I plan to take it slow here as I'm kind of out because of EEP and flame wars for GPU's due to bitcoin mania.  I'm going to go on Coffee Pancake's Catznip viewer.  Today I should get it downloaded as I had rl stuff this week.  But, during the Great Recession, people had to cut back.  President Obama even addressed the nation that it was a time to tighten our belts, meaning curtail excess spending and entertainment is usually the first to go.

Edited April 17, 2021 by FairreLilette

[LittleMe Jewell]

1 hour ago, Orwar said:

 To what extent, we'll just have to see. But the people affected aren't those who can afford to spend $11 on fast food and cigarettes on a daily basis, it's going to affect those who only have $11 or even less a day to live on. A quite large portion of the SL users are students and retirees, and unemployed people living on benefits or sick pension, and people in countries where the daily living costs are closer to $1 than $11. That the users from the American middle-class won't be able to put up with the changes isn't interesting, it's interesting which demographics will be affected to the point that they will reduce or stop contributing to the virtual economy of SL, and what the impacts of that will be in the long run.

   Not all people who are in SL consider it a luxury. I've met a lot of people who are in SL because their RL situation does not permit them to lead a 'normal' life and meet people as 'normal' people would, people who just want to experience everyday things that others could just step outside their houses to do, that they can't. Those will be the people that this affect the most.

Possible, but as I mentioned earlier - since the majority of L$ transactions will not be impacted by this fee change (per LL's statement) my guess is that the majority of people with limited funds are buying their L$ in smaller batches, under the $19.88 mark where the fee will now be higher.

Edited April 17, 2021 by LittleMe Jewell