Buy Fee Change Discussion

[FairreLilette]

17 minutes ago, Jenna Huntsman said:

Redesign the destinations floater to make it easier to find content, and list it in a way that makes sense. (I mean, the current one is pretty awful if you're looking for new *interesting* places to go. Not to mention the 'What's Hot Now' page is pretty broken).

I've been in SL before so I knew about the Destinations Guide and simply looked up "Newbie Friendly".  Why not just give a drop down menu at the onboarding place that one can click on for Landmarks to the "Newbie Friendly" places plus a picture to show where the Destination Guide is?  Many users who've been here awhile don't know about the Destination Guide even. So, yeah, this is vital.   I hadn't been on LL viewer for a long, long time...but with it starting showing the pretty places to go made it exciting and made me want to go visit those places, although Editor's Picks has been a long favorite of mine, it still made me excited because the places looked wonderful.   The FS is just blah in it's start-up page.  I know other's will disagree about that but it's just my opinion and doesn't mean all that much anyways.  So, I don't want to argue about the FS start-up page.  It is what it is.

 

17 minutes ago, Jenna Huntsman said:

the Ruth Bento avatars on the MP are good, but why not use that as the default avatar in the first place? Stop confusing newbies!

That's a great idea!  Have to ask whoever makes those as the person who does wants 1 Linden, I think.   But, newbies can earn a bit of lindens after going through the new user tasks.  

As far as the viewer, yeah.  I just need to go real life and ran out of time.

Edited April 19, 2021 by FairreLilette

[Coffee Pancake]

1 minute ago, Jenna Huntsman said:

I think that at least fixing the infrastructure that runs group chats would be a good start.

This and a million other "bug fix" issues will do nothing for growth or retention, ever.

As a core part of the platform is expected that group chat will work. No one decides not to give SL a try because the group chat may or may not work. Same for map tiles or region crossing. These things should not be broken and should not even be brought up in relation to fee increases. 

1 minute ago, Jenna Huntsman said:

Update the system avatar. It doesn't need to be a competitor to mesh bodies per-se

Yes it does. It needs to be the new standard avatar. Otherwise anyone using it still a second class user and there is no point.

We need a standard, well documented, extensible, publicly accessible (no secret dev kits), open source body platform owned by LL that supports the needs and use-cases of actual SL residents. No one should be making or using after market bodies and heads, they should be making mods for the standard body.

The existing avatar & fashion ecosystem is a disaster and directly responsible for large social activities being fundamentally impossible,  it's unforgivable for a social platform to have de-rendering other avatars be the norm!!

 

[Lillith Hapmouche]

I really don't know what to do right now.

Spent all cash I got on rent?

Go on another shopping spree?

Do nothing, leave it where it is? That would also mean no log in, no FlickR ... nothing to enjoy, it would ultimately cost.

I just don't know.

[Jenna Huntsman]

2 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

This and a million other "bug fix" issues will do nothing for growth or retention, ever.

As a core part of the platform is expected that group chat will work. No one decides not to give SL a try because the group chat may or may not work. Same for map tiles or region crossing. These things should not be broken and should not even be brought up in relation to fee increases. 

Yes it does. It needs to be the new standard avatar. Otherwise anyone using it still a second class user and there is no point.

We need a standard, well documented, extensible, publicly accessible (no secret dev kits), open source body platform owned by LL that supports the needs and use-cases of actual SL residents. No one should be making or using after market bodies and heads, they should be making mods for the standard body.

The existing avatar & fashion ecosystem is a disaster and directly responsible for large social activities being fundamentally impossible,  it's unforgivable for a social platform to have de-rendering other avatars be the norm!!

 

Don't get me wrong, I agree with the points you make.

Yes, they shouldn't be broken. 100%. But what's done is done, and creating fixes does cost development time and therefore money to pay employees. Employees have homes to upkeep, families to feed, etc. so the money to spend fixing stuff has to come from somewhere.

The main reason why I say that a new System avatar doesn't need to (directly) compete with mesh bodies is mainly so as to not infuriate people who have spent 5000+ L$ on a body and clothing *and* alienate the developer of the body itself. You'd just end up with hundreds of forum posts of people talking smack about LL actually trying to do something good (Just take a look at the 2FA threads going on right now)

So make the system avatar be a viable option, not an outright replacement for mesh bodies. Bonus points if LL uses that as leverage to encourage current mesh bodies to lower their complexities to create less of a performance impact.

Although agreed r.e. the current practice of de-rendering.

[FireFox Bancroft]

On 4/16/2021 at 9:38 AM, Silent Mistwalker said:

Hi Reed. Nice to have met you. I'm sorry I won't be able to afford being in SL for much longer to get to know you better. I wish I was kidding. I need a new graphics card for my desktop but can't afford one thanks to bitcoin mining. So I suppose the fee rate hikes won't have much effect on me since I won't be able  to log in for who knows how long before bitcoin idiots remember there are other people in the world who need those things they are stock piling for stupid reasons. Money isn't the backbone of the world, it's people.

Bitcoin mining hasn't been done on GPU's since 2012, what you're likely referring to is Cryptocurrency mining. As in they mine other cryptocurrencies with them and buy Bitcoin with those alternate cryptocurrencies. Also the GPU's are not being bought up by miners specifically. It's the Scalpers. They buy up all the GPU's from online stores with bots and then resell them at $100-$200+ over MSRP.

This is why it's difficult to get a GPU right now.

Miners are not the problem. It's scalpers.

[Janet Voxel]

10 minutes ago, FireFox Bancroft said:

Miners are not the problem. It's scalpers.

It's also why I can't get a PS5!!!

😭😭

[Phil Deakins]

2 hours ago, Kimmi Zehetbauer said:

Technically it is --- since it has "games" in it like Greedy Greedy, and the game of keeping your boat afloat crossing sim lines.

No it's not. Greedy Greedy is a game that's played in the SL environment. Similarly, poker is a game that's played in a casino, but a casino isn't a game.

[Jenna Huntsman]

1 minute ago, Phil Deakins said:

No it's not. Greedy Greedy is a game that's played in the SL environment. Similarly, poker is a game that's played in a casino, but a casino isn't a game.

Games within games is an established thing at this point, SL unlike other platforms, say, Unity, has some core 'loops' outside of just pure development, hence why I refer to it as a game. My opinion, of course.

The casino example is a flawed one, as a casino is usually referring to a place. You don't need to be in a casino to play poker. But if I download a 'virtual casino' app on my phone and use it to play poker, I'm playing a game, and poker is the game-within-a-game.

[Rowan Amore]

[Lucielle Littlepaws]

Now that I've talked to some friends the 7.5% buy fee seems to affect renters the most. Peeps start thinking about abandoning their land or spend less on other things. It's basically a tax on rent fort me. I live in Second Norway and I think land sales might drop significantly ... we'll see 🙄

[Solar Legion]

Ah yes, it was only a matter of time before someone would bring up the default avatar and other side "discussions" or pet crusades ....

[Mollymews]

10 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

The spreadsheet itch wouldn't go away, but I didn't get very far before I hit a snag. According to the FAQ in the blog announcement, capping the 7.5% fee at $9.99 means that maximum fee is reached at "approximately $139 or higher*" but there must be something I'm missing because my arithmetic says that maximum should be reached between $133.20 and $133.33, depending how you round the theoretical penny that would take the fee to $10. (Also, that "*" is kind of bogus there because it refers to a disclaimer about fluctuating LindeX exchange rates, but the discussion in this case is all US$-denominated.) Granted, that's only $6 from $139 but that's not rounding error, so somebody is confused, probably me.

(My math: $9.99 / 7.5% = $133.20 and $10.00 / 7.5% = $133.33, and if it's any assurance $1.49 / 7.5% is indeed $19.87 which qualifies as "about $20" in my book.)

i wondered about the $139 or higher claim as well

my arithmetic says the same as yours

for it to be $139 then the arithmetic says the rate would 7.187567451%

$138.99 * 7.187567451% = $9.99

or if $139 is right then the claim 7.5% is wrong

they can only be both right when use some 3 + 2 + f() = 4 method. Where f() is something other than 139 and 7.5 and Linden haven't said

 

[Jaylinbridges]

1 hour ago, Mollymews said:

they can only be both right when use some 3 + 2 + f() = 4 method. Where f() is something other than 139 and 7.5 and Linden haven't said

The simplest answer is a Linden made a typo

 

[Kimmi Zehetbauer]

2 minutes ago, Jaylinbridges said:

The simplest answer is a Linden made a typo

A Linden? Made a typo? Nah! I'll ask my Linden friend who's been working at the Lab since Fred Flintstone worked at the gravel quarry.

[Essence Amore]

Would premium go up to 500 a week like did back then.

[Anna Nova]

On 4/19/2021 at 12:36 AM, Kimmi Zehetbauer said:

Hopefully the new company that took over LL not planning more surprises. Like:

• Log in fee.
• TP fee.
• Purchase transaction fee.
• Per message PM and Group chat fee.
• Fee for having more fees.

Hope I didn't give 'em ideas!

You forgot:

• Sim crossing crash fee.
• Vehicle unseating fee.

[Alwin Alcott]

24 minutes ago, Anna Nova said:

You forgot:

• Sim crossing crash fee.
• Vehicle unseating fee.

pay for more fps
fee for high graphic settings
10 friends for bacics, 25 for premium, want more 5 dollars for each 50

but lets not give them ideas!!
 

[AdminGirl]

On 4/17/2021 at 2:20 AM, Reed Linden said:

Okay! Good morning!  I'm back at the keys, and I'm going to try to get through everything. Starting here.

 

As mentioned above, Oz has explained that our maintenance costs have actually gone UP in AWS, not down. Running our own datacenter was fairly efficient (because we owned the hardware, rather than renting it) so long as the machines were up to date and didn't need to be replaced. However, that does mean that every so often, there's a massive expenditure required to replace all the machines. In the AWS model, that expense is defrayed over time, rather than all at once (plus a surcharge of course for the privilege). The end result from a purely financial perspective is that moving to AWS is more expensive for us month-to-month, but does not require occasional massive one-time cost spikes like running the datacenter did. From an engineering and infrastructure perspective, running Second Life in AWS opens up huge opportunities (and creates additional challenges) that we're only just now beginning to explore.  We're very excited for the future.

Can I ask for more clarity on this because the cost comparison in the above explanation is a bit questionable. If you're to compare monthly costs of running own datacenter vs AWS, shouldn't the monthly depreciation of that "one-time cost spike" (to replace machines) be included in your comparison to monthly expenditure of AWS? The above explanation seems to ignore the costs of replacing machines in the datacenter to then arrive at the conclusion that AWS costs more. What I'm trying to say is, you can't exclude that massive expenditure in replacing machines from your cost comparison and then conclude that AWS month-to-month expenditure is higher. It actually has to be included. Hope that makes sense. Maybe I read your explanation wrong so just asking for clarity. Maybe you're just talking about monthly cashflow?

[Prokofy Neva]

On 4/16/2021 at 1:39 AM, Scott1 Yedmore said:

You write as though you're intimate with LL processes. Is this so?

Datacenter == hot aisle cooling and cold aisle ventilation, so let's wager about 30-35% of total cost; then there is the IT equipment - Cisco is one company that will stop supporting their older gear altogether, forcing a forklift-like overhaul to you networking infrastructure (they will offer a support contract on some aging gear for nearly what the gear originally cost, which is a recurring cost); you mentioned power.. okay let's go with that for just a sec... you pay for the delivery of city utility power... if your dc is full then your electrical cost is running at all-time highs, whereas if it's half full, you're paying to cool empty space... but there isn't just city utility power here - perhaps outside the building you have a concrete slab with a 5 mW diesel generator ready to provide emergency power to your dc... your customers; underneath that slab is a fuel tank carrying enough fuel to power that generator for 3..? 5..? 10 days..? Then the generator feeds into a bank of UPSs inside, which all go to one or more ATS switches (Automatic Transfer Switch) that in turn routes power into your electrical distribution that powers your dc. All of this and *any* modifications require permits, inspections and approvals, including Cat6E/fiber networking runs, which is another topic. Support contracts with one or more companies to come out and fix your infrastructure whenever it breaks is often an overlooked piece of the TCO of running your own datacenter, and those can be extremely expensive, ESPECIALLY on LLs "aging in house servers", you wrote. I equally find it laughable that hosting 30K-50K+ users, around the clock, was the result of magic conjured up by merely a"small maintenance" team sitting around watching the blinking lights of aging, FULLY depreciated servers.

Networking as  I mentioned is yet another topic. There is all of that infrastructure that you also must maintain with the help of all kinds of support contracts, but that isn't all. Your network does not exist in a vacume - you PEER with other networking providers, which involves nominal charges until you start peering with top companies like Level 3, or your backhaul traffic required you to hold subscriptions to backbone services... In other words, networking is a far cry away from wiring up your home router and even that is merely an interface to an ISP that requires monthly, recurring charges. As does the RBOCs, or the Regional Bell Operating Companies, in your area (a snap for San Francisco - what, the honest Pacific Bell in the bay area?).

You can see where this is going and unless you've worked in the industry as I have for 38 years, you really would brush off my earlier comment as arrogantly as you did without telling us your level of expertise and intimacy with LL processes. Now, I'm going to log in to SL to do things AWS no longer raises concerns for LL about. And AWS servers are BLAZINGLY fast and new.

Cheers.

 

[Theresa Tennyson]

On 4/15/2021 at 3:49 PM, Persephone Emerald said:

I suppose if one considers this fee being equivalent to a sales tax, then it isn't so bad. I seldom buy more than $10 worth of lindens myself because I use my Premium stipend for most purchases. Pretty much the only time I buy lindens is to purchase land or a new mesh body. This *will* hit new users harder, which could work against your desire to draw in more new users.  On the other hand, if they enjoy SL enough, perhaps it will also encourage them to go Premium, to get a Linden Home and that nice little weekly stipend.

I got curious about that, and am actually somewhat surprised. This "rapacious new fee" is actually less than many US state's sales taxes when you factor in local taxes as well, including many "deep, deep red" states. And sales taxes don't have a cap:

https://taxfoundation.org/2020-sales-taxes/

Edited April 20, 2021 by Theresa Tennyson

[Rowan Amore]

Sales tax in my state is 5.75%.  The tax on cigarettes (luxury) is 25.75%.  

 

6 hours ago, Alwin Alcott said:

pay for more fps
fee for high graphic settings
10 friends for bacics, 25 for premium, want more 5 dollars for each 50

but lets not give them ideas!!
 

Can we get money back for less than 10?

[Asadora Summers]

On 4/19/2021 at 9:35 AM, Phil Deakins said:

I have to say that that raised my eyebrows, wrinkling my forehead, when I read it in his post.

When I read that, I had to pause to think that bit over. I realise that birthdays are supposed to be extravagant celebrations, but the most attractive feature normally of anything of extravagance at these celebrations are the Shop & Hops or some type of add-on event that involves shopping.

Perhaps to put on these celebrations, it would have been better to save up during the year, without including the costs into the buy fee hike.

 

[Asadora Summers]

 

For the SLB18 as a present that we are going to be paying for ie; the increase of the buy fee, can we new group chats please?
It's one of the consistent problems and has been for years...it would be the best birthday present EVER!

 

 

[Arielle Popstar]

8 hours ago, Christina Mysterious said:

Would premium go up to 500 a week like did back then.

An increase in the stipend if signing up for another year like they do in IMVU, would be a great idea. It would certainly swing me over to renewing for this coming year if they bumped it up to 350 for example whereas as of today I am thinking of letting it lapse for now to see if I would actually miss it. The saving does not seem all that good like it was a 2-3 years ago.

[Seicher Rae]

I haven't read the whole thread, just the first page (I intend to plow through the whole thing later), and people have been making some very good points.

Wasn't the move to the cloud supposed to lower costs? Isn't the 7.5% leap rather steep? It looks greedy. It makes the new owners look greedy. I know that the new structure will impact how I buy Linden$, how much and how often, and that will mean I will be spending LESS on L$. So for me they are going to be getting less revenue flow, and not more, because of the huge spike in fees. I wonder how many others will feel and do the same. Probably not many. Most people don't pay that close attention... or do they?

I wonder what else is coming down the pike "in order to serve you better" (scariest words in English).

Glad I caught this now, and I'm debating whether to put a huge purchase in before the deadline and then say eff-it to further purchases for a long, long while.