Buy Fee Change Discussion

[Scott1 Yedmore]

On 4/16/2021 at 9:20 AM, Reed Linden said:

Okay! Good morning!  I'm back at the keys, and I'm going to try to get through everything. Starting here.

 

As mentioned above, Oz has explained that our maintenance costs have actually gone UP in AWS, not down. Running our own datacenter was fairly efficient (because we owned the hardware, rather than renting it) so long as the machines were up to date and didn't need to be replaced. However, that does mean that every so often, there's a massive expenditure required to replace all the machines. In the AWS model, that expense is defrayed over time, rather than all at once (plus a surcharge of course for the privilege). The end result from a purely financial perspective is that moving to AWS is more expensive for us month-to-month, but does not require occasional massive one-time cost spikes like running the datacenter did. From an engineering and infrastructure perspective, running Second Life in AWS opens up huge opportunities (and creates additional challenges) that we're only just now beginning to explore.  We're very excited for the future.

G'day. Thank you for the reply.

[Love Zhaoying]

5 hours ago, Angelina Sinclair said:

Here are some ideas off the top of my head so this post doesn't sound so whiny:

 

Nice save!

[LittleMe Jewell]

1 hour ago, JamesBoogieman said:

most will now have less L$ to spend

Actually, for MOST folks there will be no change at all.  LL has already said that the majority of the buy transactions are below $20.00 (specifically below $19.88) and therefore will continue to pay $1.49 per transaction.

[Skylar Littlepaws]

On 4/17/2021 at 1:36 AM, Alwin Alcott said:

that is for me still no answer why it has to be on such short time. If your team now knows hów to do it, it also could be implemented in about a month and give the people some time to get used to it. If you can do it in a week, you also can do it in a month.

I'm very sorry to say, but in a lot of answers we see the same old Linden customer approach. Lot of "soons" and not hard promesses or solutions. It's the first time something about the future comes out since the overtake... and "you'r gonna pay more" isn't the best start for a new route.

It makes me question the new owners of Linden Labs.  After all they are a finance company and financial company want money in the investment they bought.  It really doesn't make sense as to why they can't wait at least a month to give us a proper notice or at least stagger the increase for us.  

As I said, I want Second Life to grow and improve on the infrastructure, but doing it in a proper and timely manner.  I'm very worried in where the direction is going.  😞

[Stormy Dench]

I have been a premium member for 14 years.  I have also been someone who has bought my fair share of L$ over the years.  "Recently" you increased premium account fees.  And now this.  It may be that I decide to no longer renew my premium membership so that I can pay for my L$ transaction fees.

[Kimmi Zehetbauer]

Hopefully the new company that took over LL not planning more surprises. Like:

• Log in fee.
• TP fee.
• Purchase transaction fee.
• Per message PM and Group chat fee.
• Fee for having more fees.

Hope I didn't give 'em ideas!

[LittleMe Jewell]

9 minutes ago, Kimmi Zehetbauer said:

Hopefully the new company that took over LL not planning more surprises. Like:

• Log in fee.
• TP fee.
• Purchase transaction fee.
• Per message PM and Group chat fee.
• Fee for having more fees.

Hope I didn't give 'em ideas!

Apparently, long ago (in the dinosaur age or such), there was a TP fee -- back when they could only TP between TP Hubs rather than point to point.

There is a 'purchase fee' for anything bought on the MP that sells for more the L$10, but the seller pays it.

I actually think that the super large groups should be charged a fee, maybe even a tiered fee setup based on the size of the group with anything less than 500-1000 members being free.  Given the chat issues we have and given how often group notices do not get delivered, those super large groups do cause problems.

Edited April 18, 2021 by LittleMe Jewell

[Arielle Popstar]

36 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

 

I actually think that the super large groups should be charged a fee, maybe even a tiered fee setup based on the size of the group with anything less than 500-1000 members being free.  Given the chat issues we have and given how often group notices do not get delivered, those super large groups do cause problems.

Like Firestorm? It is one of the busiest groups on my list but to my mind an invaluable service to the community. I can think of a few other large groups too that are very good at providing help to new and old alike though maybe because they are more commercially oriented, there is some justification.

[Cohen Cloud]

I dropped my Premium so I will be basic again.  That $99 I won't have to pay will now cover the increased Lindens transaction fee and the drop in Lindens per dollar.

 

 

[Qie Niangao]

34 minutes ago, Cohen Cloud said:

I dropped my Premium so I will be basic again.  That $99 I won't have to pay will now cover the increased Lindens transaction fee and the drop in Lindens per dollar.

Is that really how the math works out over a year, say? Intuitively, I'd expect the Premium with stipend to make more sense now, to circumvent the new L$ buy fee, at least in part. But maybe there are some where the opposite obtains, perhaps for some range of L$ buys-per-week.

/me fights back an itchy spreadsheet finger

[Rowan Amore]

17 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Is that really how the math works out over a year, say? Intuitively, I'd expect the Premium with stipend to make more sense now, to circumvent the new L$ buy fee, at least in part. But maybe there are some where the opposite obtains, perhaps for some range of L$ buys-per-week.

/me fights back an itchy spreadsheet finger

I'm sure it doesn't work out like that for most people.  I'd prefer to purchase a few less outfits over the course of a year than cut my premium.  Wonder if people are thinking "if enough of us go back to basic, they'll rescind the new fees".  From the few friends I've talked to, they're more like, " eh, whatever.  What hasn't gone up in price lately?"

Edited April 19, 2021 by Rowan Amore

[Mollymews]

some thoughts

Linden know their numbers and what they hope to get out of this change, but I do wonder why Linden/Tilia didn't go with a more industry standard pricing schedule. Industry meaning money transmitter industry, not game application industry

money transmitter industry standard is (some percentage) + (some fixed fee)

for example: A schedule at 5% + 49c with a upper cap of $9.50 + 49c ($9.99) looks like this
 
        5%  FFee   Total    
$2    0.10  0.49    2.59  22.8%  (59 / 259)
$5    0.25  0.49    5.74  12.9%
$10   0.50  0.49   10.99   9.0%
$20   1.00  0.49   21.49   6.9%
$50   2.50  0.49   52.99   5.6%
$100  5.00  0.49  105.49   5.2%
$190  9.50  0.49  199.99   5.0%
$200  9.50  0.49  209.99   4.8%
$500  9.50  0.49  509.99   2.0%

49 cents is quite high compared to other money transmitters which are more like 30 cents. But to be fair, Linden/Tilia doesn't have the scale (customer numbers) at this time that a company like Paypal for example has

this is the 7.5% schedule Linden/Tilia has decided

$2    1.49    3.49  42.7%  (149 / 349)
$5    1.49    6.49  23.0%
$10   1.49   11.49  13.0%
$20   1.50   21.50   7.0%
$50   3.75   53.75   7.0%
$100  7.50  107.50   7.0%
$190  9.99  199.99   5.0%
$200  9.99  209.99   4.8%
$500  9.99  509.99   2.0%

to calculate potential revenue then multiply each line by the number of anticipated transactions for the line. Do the same for the 1st schedule and the same for the 2nd schedule. Then compare the totals to each other, and then compare to what is being earned under the $1.49 fixed fee schedule

the business judgment is: What is the number of anticipated?

with the 7.5% schedule, Linden are anticipating that the total number of less than $20 transactions won't change any more or less than it would under the old $1.49 schedule

Linden are anticipating that the total number of more than $20 transactions will decline. The anticipation is that while there will be a decline in total transactions, they can extract a greater amount of revenue from the decline. Linden hope that there won't be a decline, they hope there will be an increase. Hope tho is not a business strategy

there is no strategic growth vector in the 7.5% schedule from a marketing pov. No growth vector that Linden Marketing can sell to attract first time customers to dabble in buying in $5-$10-$20, and no vector to encourage an increase in impulse buys of less than $20

with the 5% + 49c schedule there is a potential growth vector. The under $20 purchases are cheaper than they were. Linden Marketing could have run with this

with the 7.5% schedule, all Linden marketing team have is to express the view that should this change result in more revenues then Linden will have more money to spend on improving the product. Every business expresses this hope: Build Better - Sell More. And is pretty much meaningless when the price entry vector is higher than it needs to be, and the growth vector is based on hope

 

i just add on here:

Linden senior people (board/executive) do know all about how to model pricing and revenue schedules. And am pretty sure the finance people modeled up all of the different ways it could be done

I just don't understand why Linden picked the 7.5% one they have. It doesn't make any sense to me, given the alternatives. It might make sense to Linden tho

Edited April 19, 2021 by Mollymews
money

[LittleMe Jewell]

1 hour ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Like Firestorm? It is one of the busiest groups on my list but to my mind an invaluable service to the community. I can think of a few other large groups too that are very good at providing help to new and old alike though maybe because they are more commercially oriented, there is some justification.

I'd probably except the help groups like Firestorm, Builder's Brewery, and other non-profit stuff like that --- the ones that are not stores selling products, clubs & musicians selling their location &/or services, etc...

 

[FairreLilette]

33 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Is that really how the math works out over a year, say? Intuitively, I'd expect the Premium with stipend to make more sense now, to circumvent the new L$ buy fee, at least in part. But maybe there are some where the opposite obtains, perhaps for some range of L$ buys-per-week.

/me fights back an itchy spreadsheet finger

Oh heck no...not for me...I'll pass on this spiffy house (see photo below) I would get for being Premium.  (Yes, this is a joke but not a joke - that is the picture of the house you would get if you went Premium today according to the picture that they show under what you get with Premium right now.)

Premium is not for me.  I like renting where I like to rent, jokes aside.  That house they show is atrocious.  What are they thinking?   But, maybe the new company could put a good picture of the actual house one might get if they do decide to become premium.

To save the extra $1.49 to $3 I may take out for special sales where I'd save a ton anyways, I could just put in a bid and save on the fee by my lindens costing less.  I just bought 7000 lindens at 248 and the wait was 10 minutes.  Saved me almost one dollar.  So, bidding will work better for me. 

How can SL have an ad for Premium right now showing a picture of such a horrible house? 

https://secondlife.com/premium/

The pictures enlarge if you click on them for anyone who wants to see this.  And, the price I just paid is on the right, the lower one.  

Edited April 19, 2021 by FairreLilette

[Rowan Amore]

6 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

Oh heck no...not for me...I'll pass on this spiffy house (see photo below) I would get for being Premium.  (Yes, this is a joke but not a joke - that is the picture of the house you would get if you went Premium today according to the picture that they show under what you get with Premium right now.)

Premium is not for me.  I like renting where I like to rent, jokes aside.  That house they show is atrocious.  What are they thinking?   But, maybe the new company could put a good picture of the actual house one might get if they do decide to become premium.

To save the extra $1.49 to $3 I may take out for special sales where I'd save a ton anyways, I could just put in a bid and save on the fee by my lindens costing less.  I just bought 7000 lindens at 547 and the wait was 10 minutes.  Saved me almost one dollar.  So, bidding will work better for me. 

How can SL have an ad for Premium right now showing a picture of such a horrible house? 

https://secondlife.com/premium/

The pictures enlarge if you click on them for anyone who wants to see this.  And, the price I just paid is on the right, the lower one.  

That picture is from one of the homes on the Horizons region of mainland.  I own a parcel there instead of a Linden home.  The one nice thing is, we don't HAVE to use the homes provided and they're all double prim parcels. Most people don't use the Jetson's houses.  But I agree, not the best picture to show off what's available.

[Claireschen Hesten]

5 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

How can SL have an ad for Premium right now showing a picture of such a horrible house? 

They look like the optional houses on Horizons not any of the old LH or Bellisseria properties and it costs a small fortune just to buy a plot there

[Coffee Pancake]

2 hours ago, Kimmi Zehetbauer said:

Hopefully the new company that took over LL not planning more surprises. Like:

• Log in fee.
• TP fee.
• Purchase transaction fee.
• Per message PM and Group chat fee.
• Fee for having more fees.

Hope I didn't give 'em ideas!

Far worse.

Per state sales tax.

[FairreLilette]

2 minutes ago, Claireschen Hesten said:

They look like the optional houses on Horizons 

They can't do any better than that?  That is a piece of junk.  And, if people don't know anything about it, why would they sign up for Premium with a horrid house like that?  

[Drayke Newall]

2 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

They can't do any better than that?  That is a piece of junk.  And, if people don't know anything about it, why would they sign up for Premium with a horrid house like that?  

As nice as I am sure all the lindens in the Marketing department are - they have always been on the backfoot as far as marketing goes.

There have been numerous threads in the forums where people have suggested ways to improve marketing of which Lindens came in and participated, however nothing has changed. They still advertise with the wrong pictures, they still advertise with the wrong slogans, they still market to a narrow demographic and they also still fail to update the website to a more modern one not something from 2010.

Just one look at the pictures used on the slider of the main homepage in comparison to their individual headers shows this.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Wow. BOTH of those photos are awful, and don't come even close to capturing how good SL can look.

In all seriousness, there are literally hundreds of SL photographers who could produce vastly better pictures with both their eyes closed. Why in god's name doesn't LL make use of the talent available on their own platform???

[Chic Aeon]

8 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Wow. BOTH of those photos are awful, and don't come even close to capturing how good SL can look.

In all seriousness, there are literally hundreds of SL photographers who could produce vastly better pictures with both their eyes closed. Why in god's name doesn't LL make use of the talent available on their own platform???

I have wondered for years about the quality of the advertisements (they WERE better for the most part in Sansar).  My "guess" was that they didn't want the low end computer people to think there had been a bait and switch thing going on :D.   I have been tired of the forum photo for a long while now. There are so many great Flickr photos out there and I am pretty sure that putting anything in the official threads has you agreeing that they can use the photo for whatever.   So really no excuses. 

 

There IS some nice work on the Marketplace and other areas so it isn't an across the board thing.  They could probably get a lot more people in here with a steamy (but arty) shot that said something like "have a virtual relationship" (but a better tag line than that).   Basically most folks here shop, pimp their avatars, make a virtual home, have a virtual relationship, build or take photos.  Some of course also go to clubs NOT looking for a relationship.   

Maybe its time to portray SL as it really is -- well the majority of it anyway.  A novel concept but one that won't work well for Marketing folks LOL.

 

 

[FairreLilette]

14 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Wow. BOTH of those photos are awful, and don't come even close to capturing how good SL can look.

In all seriousness, there are literally hundreds of SL photographers who could produce vastly better pictures with both their eyes closed. Why in god's name doesn't LL make use of the talent available on their own platform???

One couldn't pay me enough to live there and that is the plot of land?  It's way too tiny.  I envisioned something quite different with Premium.

If they need the house to be built with the tools that come in the viewer I could do better than that and prove it too!  I could even do a few faux windows, not to hard to figure out when one understands trompe l'oeil.  

That thing looks like an upside-down teacup with grass on it's roof.   What it looked to me was that they forgot the page was there from 18 years ago!  

[Milk Pixelmaid]

To the lindens, you would make so much money charging people extra for having a excessively large inventory. Just sayin'.

Free members - 10,000k or less

Premium - 100,000k or less

Over 100K items are charged $10 per year per 10K. LOL!!!! Make me MoneyMaking Linden.

[Coffee Pancake]

5 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Wow. BOTH of those photos are awful, and don't come even close to capturing how good SL can look.

In all seriousness, there are literally hundreds of SL photographers who could produce vastly better pictures with both their eyes closed. Why in god's name doesn't LL make use of the talent available on their own platform???

This is what happens when companies switch over to agile and JIRA.

No one updated this because either

• No one has created a task to be discussed at a meeting, no meeting no cost analysis, no prioritizing, no budgeted developer time, nothing gets done because nothing can be done, because it's not on the list.
• Or worse, this has just been added to the a grand sweeping plan to overhaul all web facing parts of the service, an impossibly huge project that will never be started because it can't be easily costed.

(This is also why we don't have vulkan already, it's an uncertainly large job with uncertain business numbers benefits and why Sansar was a soulless husk)

Remember back when the grid could be on fire and the devs were running about all excited having painted the wrenches pink. SL is a child of the love machine.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Just now, Milk Pixelmaid said:

To the lindens, you would make so much money charging people extra for having a excessively large inventory. Just sayin'.

Free members - 10,000k or less

Premium - 100,000k or less

Over 100K items are charged $10 per year per 10K. LOL!!!! Make me MoneyMaking Linden.

I'd be bankrupt in a week.