New Gacha Policy Discussion

[Tari Landar]

2 minutes ago, Stella Davros said:

So mean that if gacha was not transfer will not be gambling? If we look for the meaning of gambling say " play game of chance for money" and don t say "...but if is not transfer everything will be ok"

No, because there is still the random aspect that makes it fall under gambling, it's not the transfer perms that are a problem there. 

[Mollymews]

33 minutes ago, Faly Breen said:

cool. now im right back at the beginning.

ONE says its ok to sell collectables "since they dont count".

ANOTHER one say its not ok since its random.

it seems we have a difference in the understanding of what a collectible is

the different ways in which collectibles can be packaged for sale doesn't change the nature of collectibility,  the different ways only change the nature of the packaging

[Stella Davros]

1 minute ago, Tari Landar said:

No, because there is still the random aspect that makes it fall under gambling, it's not the transfer perms that are a problem there. 

I know but she post me one comment that say that because are transfer and u can resell so u can earn money became more gambling and it s not true

[Finite]

5 minutes ago, Tari Landar said:

No, because there is still the random aspect that makes it fall under gambling, it's not the transfer perms that are a problem there. 

It's really the law that make it gambling and no ones opinion. Using the anything of chance is gambling analogy means you can apply that to literally anything that has an element of chance. Baseball cards, Trading cards, gumball machines, toy machines the grabber games that you might see at a store or arcade all have elements of chance. Until the US clearly states it's gambling it is not gambling in the sense everyone likes to go on about.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Finite

[Drake1 Nightfire]

12 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

You've been in SL long enough to know better than that. Now quick, sweep that back under the sofa before someone sees it and reports it. D'oh! 

🤫

reports what, that is straight from the latest ToS. 

 

[Stella Davros]

6 minutes ago, Finite said:

It's really the law that make it gambling and no ones opinion. Using the anything of chance is gambling analogy means you can apply that to literally anything that has an element of chance. Baseball cards, Trading cards, gumball machines, toy machines the grabber games that you might see at a store or arcade all have elements of chance. Until the US clearly states it's gambling it is not gambling in the sense everyone likes to go on about.

Exactly even if you do like buy 2 pieces and then il gift u somenthing " could be gambling ahahahahaah as u give the chance to buy 2 object for have the 3rd (that you don t know what is ) for free ahahahahahahahahahaaah

[Innula Zenovka]

53 minutes ago, Katherine Heartsong said:

Now really (honestly) confused since I seem to have to buy Lindens with real money, and can also cash out Lindens into real money. I appreciate the Linden view, but I'm not sure my local (tech-stupid) politician will bother with that type of nuance.

Your local politician doesn't need to understand it.     

What matters is that both the specialist lawyers of the kind advising LL and those advising the various regulatory  bodies, both in the US and abroad, understand the the nuances of the relevant laws governing online financial services and that LL's advisors keep Tilia and LL in compliance with them.

 

 

Edited August 5, 2021 by Innula Zenovka

[Marianne Little]

5 hours ago, TDD123 said:

Just on a sidenote here as a mere consumer : I stumbled upon gachas from creators I appreciate, but always looked up the rares on MP and buy them directly if availiable. 

Aside trying a machine once or twice to understand it's concept, I immediately decided for myself back then to never use a machine again to acquire a favoured item.

I for one will not miss them.

I am buying the most of my gacha from resellers on the MP. And not only rares. Maybe I want a common. I have no guarantee that I get that common. I can play as many times for a common as for a rare. It is worth going to the MP and buy the prize, even a common, because I know what I get. Paying more than pull price is still cheaper.

So gacha creators, you will still get sales. I would prefer buying direct from you, instead of a reseller, because I think it's safer. And if you sell copy, I would prefer copy instead of buying a single item from random reseller.

[Arielle Popstar]

6 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

Your local politician doesn't need to understand it.     

What matters is that both the specialist lawyers of the kind advising LL and those advising the various regulatory  bodies, both in the US and abroad, understand the the nuances of the relevant laws governing online financial services and that LL's advisors keep Tilia and LL in compliance with them.

And conveying those nuances to those who now need to find alternative marketing solutions to keep within the new guidelines.

[Kytteh Wytchwood]

5 hours ago, Komarimono said:

I don't think real life applies here.  I was looking for examples based in the Market Place or In World stores.  I see what you're getting out though.  But don't think it really applies well and not what they were referring to at all.  Since buying all the items of the set, and getting a bonus, would be no different then setting it up as a Fatpack to save on the hassle of it.

I already gave you an example, pertaining to SL. It was a very simple and easy to understand explanation. I only incorporated a RL example because I ran out of options to tell. I only mentioned the bonus because that is how it works in RL. I know nowadays creators offer bonus colors and/ or prints if you buy their fatpack but that is not how the fatpack started.

Fatpack= buy everything in 1 purchase for 100-200L off the price.

Set(or Collection)= buy everything in 1 purchase, no discount

Singles= buy everything, 1 by 1

Although nowadays, creators I see, aren't offering all of the singles. they choose certain colors and/ or prints. Then the only way to get everything is to buy the fatpack but the fatpack does not offer a discounted price by paying in bulk aka as 1 purchase for everything.

Do you understand now? It is very frustrating to break it down over and over. I feel you do understand and are just playing mind games with me.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Kytteh Wytchwood
misspellings

[Kytteh Wytchwood]

5 hours ago, Yingzi Xue said:

My post spoke specifically of rares and the fact that the extra work done by the creator to make said rares may not necessarily justify (or most often does not justify) the extra expense a consumer puts into acquiring them.  This in no way negates the worth of gacha products in general, but puts into perspective the minimal effort often put into a rare by the creator (a retexture, for instance) vs the cost to the consumer, which definitely is not worth it to the consumer.

Some of the most innovative products in SL are sold in gachas.  I have no doubt they will continue to sell outside of the gacha mechanism.

 

If you would have mentioned retextures instead of a very broad statement about worth, then I wouldn't have replied to you and said what I said. When I see rares, they are not retextured. It is a completely different product.

[simplemint]

Apologies if these questions have already been addressed in the thread, but there are far too many pages for me to go back and check. I don't see it in the FAQ yet. I'm curious about the following:

1) Is LL planning any further outreach to users beyond an announcement on the forums? Not all users read the forums and so may miss this important news. If users don't see this message, they may not be able to adjust their shops until after the enforcement period begins.

2) Is LL planning to translate this message into languages other than English - or at least outsource the work to residents? Again, this is an important message, but I fear that it's going to be lost among some our non-English speaking friends. 

[LittleMe Jewell]

4 minutes ago, simplemint said:

Apologies if these questions have already been addressed in the thread, but there are far too many pages for me to go back and check. I don't see it in the FAQ yet. I'm curious about the following:

1) Is LL planning any further outreach to users beyond an announcement on the forums? Not all users read the forums and so may miss this important news. If users don't see this message, they may not be able to adjust their shops until after the enforcement period begins.

2) Is LL planning to translate this message into languages other than English - or at least outsource the work to residents? Again, this is an important message, but I fear that it's going to be lost among some our non-English speaking friends. 

1) My guess is YES.  At the very least, they will put some notice on the viewer login windows, but hopefully they also send out an email.

2) No clue on this one, though it was already mentioned by someone way back in the early pages of this thing.

 

ETA:  Actually, this will require a TOS modification, so everyone will have to agree to the TOS again, likely starting Sept 1.  Hopefully when LL pops up the notice, they will highlight the Gacha change at the top of the notice.

Edited August 5, 2021 by LittleMe Jewell

[Fionalein]

3 minutes ago, simplemint said:

Apologies if these questions have already been addressed in the thread, but there are far too many pages for me to go back and check. I don't see it in the FAQ yet. I'm curious about the following:

1) Is LL planning any further outreach to users beyond an announcement on the forums? Not all users read the forums and so may miss this important news. If users don't see this message, they may not be able to adjust their shops until after the enforcement period begins.

2) Is LL planning to translate this message into languages other than English - or at least outsource the work to residents? Again, this is an important message, but I fear that it's going to be lost among some our non-English speaking friends. 

You better alert the authorities as this seems an important question. Make sure they read it by adding a LL employee to your post, like so:

@Patch Linden please look at the post I quoted

[Kytteh Wytchwood]

4 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

I would say that originally gachas in Second Life were created by Japanese/Japanese-influenced creators for whom having gachapon in a virtual world would be as natural as having trees and houses. There was a Japanese creator who had a store full of remarkably good little items at L$1 a pull - when the store closed the full packs could be bought as copy/no transfer for L$99 for their group members.

They became big business after The Arcade event started. I'd say it's really well past its prime by now, and resale locations always had a pretty short shelf life to begin with.

I agree with you, about it being Japanese creators. I said in this thread that SL creators were inspired by the gachapon in Japan. You get a prize in a plastic package or plastic ball. they aren't like the flimsy plastic toys you get at a grocery store. they are much nicer, and many are lined up in retail stores, and retail stores in malls. 

I do remember the 2L - 5L pulls inside mainstores. Then gachas become gacha events but initially wasn't everywhere like it is now. I stopped going to gachas because I want a specific product and can now afford to do that. I shopped gachas in the past because that was all I could afford. I'm happy to see the gacha system leaving SL.

Yeah, I dreaded The Arcade, because it was addictive for me. Although SL itself used to be addictive for me also. Just depends on the person, if you can be easily addicted to entertainment pastimes or not.

[Rowan Amore]

44 minutes ago, Stella Davros said:

I know but she post me one comment that say that because are transfer and u can resell so u can earn money became more gambling and it s not true

Transfer perms on no copy items are PART of the problem.  Not the entire problem.  Which is why they changed the requirements for 7Seas fishing to include 'items going forward must me no transfer.  The randomness when acquiring it plus the transfer perms make it an item that one can make a profit on.  Gambling laws include many caveats and why they are consulting with external counsel.  Lawyers better versed in gambling laws.

[Leigh Tharnaby]

Once upon a time, there was a cute little idea of paying a tiny amount of money and getting a surprise. What you got didn't matter because everything was good. You could even trade the items to get something you wanted more or chase "the rare" which you had a fair chance of getting ahold of. The people loved it and felt like they won every time, just a tiny bit of money and they had something they liked or could trade away. The creators could make small novelties for people to collect and hunt and the income was sustainable. All was good and the wise old Linden let it be.

Then one day someone said "Why don't we create a special experience for getting the rare item? No one can have this experience unless they pull the rare". There were some hrms and hums of disapproval but they did it anyhow. Now the rare was special and everyone wanted it but everything else was still good, just not as good as it was before.

Then one day someone said "Why don't we make it even harder to pull the rare and make all the commons very plain or less desirable colors? Then they'll play the machine more and more". There were loud hrms and hums of disapproval but they did it anyhow. Now the commons were near worthless and next to no one wanted them because that's all anyone got.

Then one day someone said "Why don't we base the entire gacha around the rare? Why don't we make the rare first and make all the common items go with it? Then they'll keep playing until they get the rare". There were very loud hrms and hums of disapproval but they did it anyhow. Now the rare was needed to fully enjoy the other items and everyone had to have it. The other items were disappointing and in some cases, useless without the rare.

Then one day someone said "Why don't we make it near impossible to get anything but commons so that only rares and uncommons are truly valuable? Instead of fun, let's make this about rarity value". There were angry hrms and hums of disapproval but they did it anyhow. Now next to no one got what they wanted unless they were fortunate and dumped a fortune into the machine. No one was happy but the creators making the money and of course the resellers who got those rares and changed serious bank for them.

Then one day the law said "Hey, that's taking advantage of people and that's not cool. You can't do that. Those are all banned now." and the creators cried "What? But how will we make money now! What about the economy?" and then the wise old Linden swept down and told them "If you hadn't made you machines more and more of a money sink and used people unfairly, the law wouldn't exist. You took advantage of people and now, you ruined it for everyone. Now we have to take it away because you turned something that was fun into exploitation."

And the lesson is...

People will always find a way to ruin something for their own gain. This is why we can't have nice things.

[Ted McGregor]

15 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Their goal was differentiating loot boxes from gambling and the ability to trade with other players.

And was to put into place to basically protect minors from insatiable gambling constructions in games made up by adults.

I'm more under the impression here minors are revolting against commercial constructs adults are putting into place to protect them from exploiting eachother. You can still sell your stuff, just not the gacha-way.

Edited August 5, 2021 by TDD123

[CaithLynnSayes]

So, just learned about this. That's absolutely awesome news. Really happy this annoying drivel got stopped.

 

 

 

[Silent Mistwalker]

25 minutes ago, Leigh Tharnaby said:

Once upon a time, there was a cute little idea of paying a tiny amount of money and getting a surprise. What you got didn't matter because everything was good. You could even trade the items to get something you wanted more or chase "the rare" which you had a fair chance of getting ahold of. The people loved it and felt like they won every time, just a tiny bit of money and they had something they liked or could trade away. The creators could make small novelties for people to collect and hunt and the income was sustainable. All was good and the wise old Linden let it be.

Then one day someone said "Why don't we create a special experience for getting the rare item? No one can have this experience unless they pull the rare". There were some hrms and hums of disapproval but they did it anyhow. Now the rare was special and everyone wanted it but everything else was still good, just not as good as it was before.

Then one day someone said "Why don't we make it even harder to pull the rare and make all the commons very plain or less desirable colors? Then they'll play the machine more and more". There were loud hrms and hums of disapproval but they did it anyhow. Now the commons were near worthless and next to no one wanted them because that's all anyone got.

Then one day someone said "Why don't we base the entire gacha around the rare? Why don't we make the rare first and make all the common items go with it? Then they'll keep playing until they get the rare". There were very loud hrms and hums of disapproval but they did it anyhow. Now the rare was needed to fully enjoy the other items and everyone had to have it. The other items were disappointing and in some cases, useless without the rare.

Then one day someone said "Why don't we make it near impossible to get anything but commons so that only rares and uncommons are truly valuable? Instead of fun, let's make this about rarity value". There were angry hrms and hums of disapproval but they did it anyhow. Now next to no one got what they wanted unless they were fortunate and dumped a fortune into the machine. No one was happy but the creators making the money and of course the resellers who got those rares and changed serious bank for them.

Then one day the law said "Hey, that's taking advantage of people and that's not cool. You can't do that. Those are all banned now." and the creators cried "What? But how will we make money now! What about the economy?" and then the wise old Linden swept down and told them "If you hadn't made you machines more and more of a money sink and used people unfairly, the law wouldn't exist. You took advantage of people and now, you ruined it for everyone. Now we have to take it away because you turned something that was fun into exploitation."

And the lesson is...

People will always find a way to ruin something for their own gain. This is why we can't have nice things.

May I offer the tl;dr version?

*clears throat*

Once upon a time, there was a cute little idea of paying a tiny amount of money and getting a surprise.

Then, greed set in.

The end.

[Ted McGregor]

1 minute ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

Then, greed set in.

The end.

To be continued ...

Edited August 5, 2021 by TDD123

[Ted McGregor]

Next : Revival of the SL economy - Gacha Escorting

[Leigh Tharnaby]

3 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

May I offer the tl;dr version?

*clears throat*

Once upon a time, there was a cute little idea of paying a tiny amount of money and getting a surprise.

Then, greed set in.

The end.

Yeah but "People stink" wasn't as entertaining to read

[Silent Mistwalker]

Just now, TDD123 said:

To be continued ...

No. LL said The End.  And that is the moral of the story. Greed kills. Gachas, that is. 😛

[Ted McGregor]

Just now, Silent Mistwalker said:

No. LL said The End. 

Yeah like that' s gonna stop people wishing for a quick buck. Got me ?

Gotcha.