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New Gacha Policy Discussion


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1 hour ago, Mollymews said:

it seems we have a difference in the understanding of what a collectible is

the different ways in which collectibles can be packaged for sale doesn't change the nature of collectibility,  the different ways only change the nature of the packaging

you do know someone else answerd already on my main question, right? thats why i said that literally one said its ok but you said its not. and since they are literally collectables and not "clothes" or something similar in a gacha, they cant be sold without the random factor in mind - and a comment before i also said that i basicly could do it like 7seas than and sell "tokens" for a gacha, making the item people buy not random since they bu the token to get an actual rendom reward with it - thats LLs logic there.

 

said comment i made was let me see...

there. coz this is actually "creating a double standart".

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Just now, TDD123 said:

Yeah like that' s gonna stop people wishing for a quick buck. Got me ? :|

Gotcha.

You know what they say about wish in one hand and something in the other and seeing which hand fills up first? 

Careful what you chose for filling that other hand up with. 

/me whispers Hey! got a paper bag and a match? 🤭

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2 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

/me whispers Hey! got a paper bag and a match? 🤭

We can't do this. All my hands are filled with are coloured gumballs from a gacha machine. I got a rare, but I think it' s just 2 golden half nutshells glued together .. :|

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My neighbor's ex-boyfriend's cousin's mailman's son-in-law's great-uncle six times removed's mistress's jumping spider heard that last week Patch called for an all-staff BYOB meeting on his really big deck where all the Lindens got rip-roaring drunk and had a discussion about the best way to eff with residents and they all put their suggestions into a blingy sculpty boot that was oddly lodged in the back of Grumpity's head after she TPed in and Patch pulled out the winner and it said "banning gachas". 

Actually, it said "bending gorillas" but since he was blurry-eyed hammered, and the hand-writing was a nonsensical drunken mess, he read it as "banning gachas". Rather than admit to his mistake, he decided to go for it and the (virtual) world was suddenly a better place.

Somewhere off in the distance, if you listen very closely, you can hear Ebbe giggling in the wind. 

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1 minute ago, TDD123 said:

We can't do this. All my hands are filled with are coloured gumballs from a gacha machine. I got a rare, but I think it' s just 2 golden half nutshells glued together .. :|

You owe me a roll of paper towels and a cup of decaf.

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Just now, Silent Mistwalker said:

You owe me a roll of paper towels and a cup of decaf.

Now you're just being greedy. Merchant .. :P

 

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2 minutes ago, TDD123 said:

Now you're just being greedy. Merchant .. :P

 

ok then....

Get to work! Clean up the mess you made me spew through my nose! 

You still owe me a cuppa though. 😛

Edited by Silent Mistwalker
having too much fun
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58 minutes ago, simplemint said:

1) Is LL planning any further outreach to users beyond an announcement on the forums? Not all users read the forums and so may miss this important news. If users don't see this message, they may not be able to adjust their shops until after the enforcement period begins.

There was a "Featured News" blog about it,  and if you use the LL viewer or one of the 3rd party viewers which has the same splash screen as the LL viewer, you would see the Blog title ("Policy Change Regarding Gacha") and link on the viewer login screen Blog feed section (which is actually how I first saw this news). 

Also, the Blog title and link are displayed on one's secondlife.com dashboard page Blog Feed section. 

If you "follow" the Featured News section of their blog, you would have received an email with the contents of the "Policy Change Regarding Gacha" blog post as well.  If nothing else, it's worthwhile to follow at least the Featured News section of the blog, because sometimes the blog posts do contain important information. 

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1 minute ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

ok then....

Get to work! Clean up the mess up made me spew through my nose! 

You still owe me a cuppa though. 😛

Wanna bet I can make this next coffee come out of your ears as well ? xD

Oh damn no gambling alllowed .. :|

 

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57 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Transfer perms on no copy items are PART of the problem.  Not the entire problem.  Which is why they changed the requirements for 7Seas fishing to include 'items going forward must me no transfer.  The randomness when acquiring it plus the transfer perms make it an item that one can make a profit on.  Gambling laws include many caveats and why they are consulting with external counsel.  Lawyers better versed in gambling laws.

The transfer PART is totally added from LL cause trading is admitted once you buy legally somemthing and the creator of the object give u permissions don t have nothing to do with gambling thats for sure

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1 hour ago, Kytteh Wytchwood said:

If you would have mentioned retextures instead of a very broad statement about worth, then I wouldn't have replied to you and said what I said. When I see rares, they are not retextured. It is a completely different product.

I did.  Here's a direct quote from my post:

The illusion of value of a rare is what makes gacha so alluring.  Actual value of said rares vary.  Some rares are just a retexture, while others are unique models.  The amount of time a creator spends on a rare might be a few seconds to a few hours.  Sometimes the rare is worth it, but most of the time it's not.

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1 minute ago, Stella Davros said:

The transfer PART is totally added from LL cause trading is admitted once you buy legally somemthing and the creator of the object give u permissions don t have nothing to do with gambling thats for sure

However, when I was reading about some of the gaming loot box regulations that have been put in place in some countries, at least one only considered the loot box as gambling if the game had the possbility that prizes could be sold for real money either in the game, or outside of the game (which in SL would correspond with selling the gacha item for linden dollars and cashing out for real money).  So, the transfer part may not be "totally added" from LL, but may be one of the nuances that they are looking at in how various governmental jurisdictions are looking at a similar situation. 

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13 minutes ago, MoiraKathleen said:

If you "follow" the Featured News section of their blog, you would have received an email with the contents of the "Policy Change Regarding Gacha" blog post as well. 

That one isn't reliable. I Follow all of the blog sections, but did not get an email on this.

 

13 minutes ago, MoiraKathleen said:

There was a "Featured News" blog about it,  and if you use the LL viewer or one of the 3rd party viewers which has the same splash screen as the LL viewer, you would see the Blog title ("Policy Change Regarding Gacha") and link on the viewer login screen Blog feed section (which is actually how I first saw this news). 

While it is on the Second Live Viewer login screen, it won't take but a couple more blog posts to scroll that off the visible part.  It doesn't show on my Firestorm viewer login screen at all.  That viewer defaults to Firestorm info and the Grid Status, though there is a link to the LL Blog.

 

13 minutes ago, MoiraKathleen said:

Also, the Blog title and link are displayed on one's secondlife.com dashboard page Blog Feed section. 

You know, while I know that section is there, I never really "see" it.  The only time I go to my Dashboard is to do things from the links on the left side, primarily account specific stuff.

 

 

Hopefully, LL will blast out an email to everyone since a large part of the user base does not use the SL Viewer and, given the questions we get here in the forums, many don't have a clue about most of the things available via their Dashboard.

 

Edited by LittleMe Jewell
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1 hour ago, Finite said:

It's really the law that make it gambling and no ones opinion. Using the anything of chance is gambling analogy means you can apply that to literally anything that has an element of chance. Until the US clearly states it's gambling it is not gambling in the sense everyone likes to go on about.

This is untrue. Chance can be calculated. I have a total number of items. I could for instance calculate the chance to pull the even numbers 10 times in a row.

That' s, again, not the case with gachas. It' s not transparent. You don't know the total amount of products you are collecting from. You do not know the number of commons ( one which is copied ) and the number of rares ( one which is copied ). The script of the gacha machine is not calculating the number of availiable rares against a number of availiable commons or is deciding a fair spread.

It' s gambling alright.

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23 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

My neighbor's ex-boyfriend's cousin's mailman's son-in-law's great-uncle six times removed's mistress's jumping spider heard that last week Patch called for an all-staff BYOB meeting on his really big deck where all the Lindens got rip-roaring drunk and had a discussion about the best way to eff with residents and they all put their suggestions into a blingy sculpty boot that was oddly lodged in the back of Grumpity's head after she TPed in and Patch pulled out the winner and it said "banning gachas". 

Actually, it said "bending gorillas" but since he was blurry-eyed hammered, and the hand-writing was a nonsensical drunken mess, he read it as "banning gachas". Rather than admit to his mistake, he decided to go for it and the (virtual) world was suddenly a better place.

Somewhere off in the distance, if you listen very closely, you can hear Ebbe giggling in the wind. 

I've missed you in the forums.

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10 minutes ago, Stella Davros said:

The transfer PART is totally added from LL cause trading is admitted once you buy legally somemthing and the creator of the object give u permissions don t have nothing to do with gambling thats for sure

The transfer part IS part of the problem and why other countries are addressing the issue.  LL is being proactive as more and more countries follow these guidelines when enacting new laws.  LL didn't make up the rules other countries are following nor will the make up any rules in the US but they will have to follow them.

Gachas are being defined as loot boxes.

 

 

The Netherlands Gaming Authority conducted a study on video game loot boxes in 2018. The survey considered eight different games. They didn’t reveal which games, though.

Their goal was differentiating loot boxes from gambling and the ability to trade with other players. According to Dutch laws, here’s what they concluded:

Loot boxes that grant items you can’t trade with other players are gaming, not gambling.

Crates of loot granting items you can trade is illegal, and thus gambling.

Randomized boxes are forbidden under gambling regulations and laws if the items from the boxes are transferable.

Loot boxes that work as a game of chance need a gambling license. High-risk/high-reward gambles with real currency can only happen under strict regulations.

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8 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

The transfer part IS part of the problem and why other countries are addressing the issue.  LL is being proactive as more and more countries follow these guidelines when enacting new laws.  LL didn't make up the rules other countries are following nor will the make up any rules in the US but they will have to follow them.

Gachas are being defined as loot boxes.

 

 

The Netherlands Gaming Authority conducted a study on video game loot boxes in 2018. The survey considered eight different games. They didn’t reveal which games, though.

Their goal was differentiating loot boxes from gambling and the ability to trade with other players. According to Dutch laws, here’s what they concluded:

Loot boxes that grant items you can’t trade with other players are gaming, not gambling.

Crates of loot granting items you can trade is illegal, and thus gambling.

Randomized boxes are forbidden under gambling regulations and laws if the items from the boxes are transferable.

Loot boxes that work as a game of chance need a gambling license. High-risk/high-reward gambles with real currency can only happen under strict regulations.

In the end put gachas ( with other name)into the skill game machines and the problem is finish,  if not one day someone will find the solution and will come out with somenthing different and will be the same 

Edited by Stella Davros
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1 minute ago, Stella Davros said:

In the end put gachas ( with other name)into the skill game machines and the problem is finish,  if not one day someone will find the solution and will come out with somenthing different and will be the same 

Nothing goes into Skill gaming without first proving the Skill that is involved.

Perhaps you could explain that Skill here.

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2 minutes ago, Stella Davros said:

In the end put gachas ( with other name)into the skill game machines and the problem is finish,  if not one day someone will find the solution and will come out with somenthing different and will be the same 

If LL's legal team tells them it's ok for LL to do that, they probably will. If not, anything on the grid after Sept 1 that even resembles a gacha will be grounds for account suspension/termination. Why risk it?

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10 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Nothing goes into Skill gaming without first proving the Skill that is involved.

Perhaps you could explain that Skill here.

Skill is for example simulate the zyngo game or somemthing similar or like dice game where u have the possibility to play for win one prize and put clothes or item instead of win money...rare as bonus and full set as Jackpot......example u have prize with numbers, each "gacha" is one number , let s say 32 item, you have 4 dices and spin , its coming out with amount of the dices 12 and suppose that 12 is 1 common and u don t like you hold 3 dices and one you ca spin again and Comin out one 6 so now you have  15 and is the equivalente of another common that u win....sorry for my english lol

Edited by Stella Davros
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24 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

That one isn't reliable. I Follow all of the blog sections, but did not get an email on this.

 

While it is on the Second Live Viewer login screen, it won't take but a couple more blog posts to scroll that off the visible part.  It doesn't show on my Firestorm viewer login screen at all.  That viewer defaults to Firestorm info and the Grid Status, though there is a link to the LL Blog.

 

You know, while I know that section is there, I never really "see" it.  The only time I go to my Dashboard is to do things from the links on the left side, primarily account specific stuff.

 

 

Hopefully, LL will blast out an email to everyone since a large part of the user base does not use the SL Viewer and, given the questions we get here in the forums, many don't have a clue about most of the things available via their Dashboard.

 

True,  and we went through similar stuff when the new Linden Homes were released and people said they never saw any notices.    If the email from following the blog sections isn't reliable, I don't know if any other type of email blast would be any more reliable - or if people who don't come to the forums or don't look at their dashboard would receive and then read an email from LL.  I think they only email out to confirmed emails, as well, so that's another spot where email communication could break down, if someone hadn't logged into their dashboard and confirmed their email.   

I don't follow SL on Twitter, Instagram or FB, so I don't know if there were any links to the announcement blog on those other social media platforms.

 

13 minutes ago, Stella Davros said:

In the end put gachas ( with other name)into the skill game machines and the problem is finish,  if not one day someone will find the solution and will come out with somenthing different and will be the same 

Online skill gaming is regulated as well.  There is a LL application process for getting a new skill game approved,  there's an application process for being a skill game operator (running a skill game region), there are fees and additional costs for having a skill game region, there are requirements as to which residents are able to visit a skill game region...   I don't think converting some existing skill game to give out gacha objects instead of linden dollars would be a walk in the park, even if LL was able to modify their policy to include that type of skill game and still be in compliance with the various U.S. state and international online skill gaming regulations.  

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1 minute ago, MoiraKathleen said:

True,  and we went through similar stuff when the new Linden Homes were released and people said they never saw any notices.    If the email from following the blog sections isn't reliable, I don't know if any other type of email blast would be any more reliable - or if people who don't come to the forums or don't look at their dashboard would receive and then read an email from LL.  I think they only email out to confirmed emails, as well, so that's another spot where email communication could break down, if someone hadn't logged into their dashboard and confirmed their email.   

I don't follow SL on Twitter, Instagram or FB, so I don't know if there were any links to the announcement blog on those other social media platforms.

 

Online skill gaming is regulated as well.  There is a LL application process for getting a new skill game approved,  there's an application process for being a skill game operator (running a skill game region), there are fees and additional costs for having a skill game region, there are requirements as to which residents are able to visit a skill game region...   I don't think converting some existing skill game to give out gacha objects instead of linden dollars would be a walk in the park, even if LL was able to modify their policy to include that type of skill game and still be in compliance with the various U.S. state and international online skill gaming regulations.  

Of course will not be easy and faster but can be possible , so can be one solution

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2 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

And conveying those nuances to those who now need to find alternative marketing solutions to keep within the new guidelines.

That, I think, is what Patch and LL are trying to do with the FAQ that they're compiling.

I think, though, that they've already made it pretty clear.

If you pay L$ and receive either L$ or something that can be sold, and thus converted into L$, in return, and there's an element of chance about what what/how much you receive, then the strong presumption is that it's banned.   

Edited by Innula Zenovka
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17 minutes ago, Stella Davros said:

In the end put gachas ( with other name)into the skill game machines and the problem is finish,  if not one day someone will find the solution and will come out with somenthing different and will be the same 

That might work if every merchant applies and is approved to operate a skilled (have to prove that first) game.  Rules apply and there are quarterly fees although I can't find where they list those fees..  A $250 non refundable license application fee also.  Which means you must pay simply to apply with no guarantee of acceptance.  

Proving it qualifies as a skilled game is the first hurdle.

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