New Gacha Policy Discussion

[Shirley Marquez]

On 8/2/2021 at 2:14 PM, DeeJay Peapod said:

lmao LL doesnt get paid for gacha machines....they get paid for the mesh and texture uploads and that's where it ends so unless a reseller is putting it on the MP 

Also for the land rental to put the machines on.

[ChicYoda]

What about the Lelutka powder pack sold in the market place. The ad states you buy a box and it's a mystery pack. You do not know what you are getting. It is sold for a crazy amount of money. I'm sure there are many similar products sold like this. Is this now illegal, against second life policy?

[Kyle Beckett]

Just now, ChicYoda said:

What about the Lelutka powder pack sold in the market place. The ad states you buy a box and it's a mystery pack. You do not know what you are getting. It is sold for a crazy amount of money. I'm sure there are many similar products sold like this. Is this now illegal, against second life policy?

No, these are allowed because everyone gets the same mystery contents.

[Da5id Weatherwax]

1 hour ago, TDD123 said:

To be continued ...

The only thing "to be continued" is forum whingeing until the Lindens manage to peel their fingers away from the collective facepalm and hit the "delete thread" button.

Gacha are toast. They aint coming back after this "grace period" ends. Anyone trying to bring them back via some "clever" workaround to the rules is going to find themselves in something deep, brown and malodorous.

 

And for heaven's sake can we just STOP trying to argue "but it isn't gambling" please? It is pure random chance like a slot machine or a roulette table. There isn't even an element of skill in it like there is to most card games and I hope nobody is going to argue that playing cards for money isn't gambling?

If I sat down at the same table as a competitive poker player, I'd lose my shirt because he's better at the game -ie better at judging the odds to minimise his risk of loss and maximise his chance of a win. That's still gambling. I would suspect that, as a compitetive bridge player - a game where "competitions" are decided by playing "duplicate", you win the contest by doing better than other partnerships who are given the exact same hands to play as you are - if I and my regular partner were to sit down and play for money with most of the folks on here we'd not go home with less than we started. (our best nights playing moderate-stakes tables we went home having nearly doubled our $2k table buy-in, our worst were rarely more than a couple of hundred down) Even with that level of skill modifying the random fall of the cards it's still gambling. Gacha are one-armed bandits and they are configured for stingy payouts. Walk up to a gacha machine with $L in your hand and your odds are usually worse than they would be taking your RL dollars to the pull-tab booth in your neighborhood dive bar. It's gambling. And its gone.

[Stella Davros]

8 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

That might work if every merchant applies and is approved to operate a skilled (have to prove that first) game.  Rules apply and there are quarterly fees although I can't find where they list those fees..  A $250 non refundable license application fee also.  Which means you must pay simply to apply with no guarantee of acceptance.  

Proving it qualifies as a skilled game is the first hurdle.

Sure but before shoul be a plan well definited

[Rowan Amore]

4 minutes ago, ChicYoda said:

What about the Lelutka powder pack sold in the market place. The ad states you buy a box and it's a mystery pack. You do not know what you are getting. It is sold for a crazy amount of money. I'm sure there are many similar products sold like this. Is this now illegal, against second life policy?

Q: How are subscription boxes affected?

A: Subscription boxes are not affected as long as all subscribers are getting the same content box. Different items being sent to different subscribers on a chance basis is not allowed. 

The items are also no transfer

Edited August 5, 2021 by Rowan Amore

[Ted McGregor]

2 minutes ago, ChicYoda said:

 Is this now illegal, against second life policy?

Are you aware how these 2 states are not mutually inclusive ? LL might act on legislation from the outsideworld, like now, yet not have active policies in place for activities still redeemed illegal in RL.

[MoiraKathleen]

6 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Q: How are subscription boxes affected?

A: Subscription boxes are not affected as long as all subscribers are getting the same content box. Different items being sent to different subscribers on a chance basis is not allowed. 

The items are also no transfer

Just wanted to add, that this part about ALL subscribers getting the same content is another nuance  - in this situation, a GOOD nuance, because it means at this time, subscription boxes that provide the same no-transfer content to all purchasers are not likely to be affected.   

(and hopefully it remains not affected, going into the future).

[Patch Linden]

Hey everyone!

The FAQ's have been updated again and we hope this further helps with more clarity on some specific items.  
 

I wanted to thank everyone for the thoughtful discussion to date, along with the many suggestions and questions regarding the policy.  In general, we will not be monitoring this thread as closely and as we see any other areas that we need to cover, we will continue to keep the FAQ updated.  

[Kyle Beckett]

6 minutes ago, Patch Linden said:

Hey everyone!

The FAQ's have been updated again and we hope this further helps with more clarity on some specific items.  
 

I wanted to thank everyone for the thoughtful discussion to date, along with the many suggestions and questions regarding the policy.  In general, we will not be monitoring this thread as closely and as we see any other areas that we need to cover, we will continue to keep the FAQ updated.  

Q:  Could a “conveyor belt” system work?  

Example:  The vendor board selects an item at random and displays it for purchase.  That item remains on display and available for purchase until a buyer touches the vendor which locks it to them for purchase.  This allowed the buyer to purchase the item and deliver it.  The vendor unlocks and then selects another item at random and displays it for purchase and the cycle repeats.

Example image here and credit to Nadi Vemo for the approved vendor design.

A:  Yes, as long as the item currently being purchased is known. Note however that you should discontinue the use of the “gacha” term for these sales. 

 

Thank you for working with creators and residents to find a solution!

I am happy to see a vendor like this is approved and am excited for the future!

Although gachas are dead, a phoenix has risen from the ashes

Edited August 5, 2021 by Kyle Beckett

[bigmoe Whitfield]

1 minute ago, Kyle Beckett said:

Q:  Could a “conveyor belt” system work?  

Example:  The vendor board selects an item at random and displays it for purchase.  That item remains on display and available for purchase until a buyer touches the vendor which locks it to them for purchase.  This allowed the buyer to purchase the item and deliver it.  The vendor unlocks and then selects another item at random and displays it for purchase and the cycle repeats.

Example image here and credit to Nadi Vemo for the approved vendor design.

 

Thank you for working with creators and residents to find a solution!

I am happy to see a vendor like this is approved and am excited for the future!

Although gachas are dead, a phoenix has risen from the ashes

As long as people follow the rules and guidelines and does not skirt the rules, all it's going to take is one bad actor and out it goes.

[Anairah Galicia]

I think it's the recent class-action lawsuits filed against major companies which support lootboxes that convinced LL to retire gacha. Gachas are akin to lootboxes since they work the same way: players pay to receive random items.

In recent years, many countries have cracked down on these games of chance. Likely, LL's decision to retire gacha was a pre-emptive measure taken to avoid having the government step in and regulate policy, which would have happened eventually given the numerous countries in which it has already happened and the numerous gaming companies that have been affected by it.

Wikipedia has a dry, yet informative, page dedicated to lootbox policy and regulation. Check it out, if you're interested.

[simplemint]

Good news about the conveyor belt system! It sounds like an interesting way to add some randomness/rarity into purchases for those who might be interested in offering it.

It reminds me of discount roulettes - the customer pays the full price set but the roulette spins giving an opportunity for the customer to get various discounts from 10% off to 100% off. 

[Rosa Hexem]

Heyyyyy, so it turns out the convey belt system IS okay! Funny that's what I thought would end up being okay all those posts ago, now lets get to discussing the finer points of how to make the conveyor system work: what potential issues might it have and how might we solve them?

[Alice Aurelia]

6 часов назад Роуэн Аморе сказал:

В виде @LittleMe Jewellбесчисленное количество раз говорит, очевидно, безрезультатно. Это не имеет значения. Юристы LL НЕ будут читать ваше оправдание и говорить: «Ей-богу! Ты прав! Это не азартная игра! Пусть гача вернется! »  

Продавайте свои вещи, как это делали все с момента основания SL. Реселлеры? Извините, но зарабатывать деньги (если вы их зарабатывали) на чужом тяжелом труде закончилось.

 

 

[Alice Aurelia]

6 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

В виде @LittleMe Jewellбесчисленное количество раз говорил, очевидно, безрезультатно, что никто не спрашивает чье-либо мнение о том, являются ли гачи азартными играми или нет. Это не имеет значения. Юристы LL НЕ будут читать ваше оправдание и говорить: «Ей-богу! Ты прав! Это не азартная игра! Пусть гача вернется!»  

Продавайте свои вещи, как это делали все с момента основания SL. Реселлеры? Извините, но зарабатывать деньги (если вы их зарабатывали) на чужом тяжелом труде закончилось.

 

Resellers sold RARE for mostly at a price of 200 to 1000, but they won it by spending 10,000, and commons often does not cover this amount-and the buyer pays for the right to choose-unlike a reseller who never knows what he will pull out. One pull can cost from 50 to 100 linds, and the item obtained as a result is often sold for 10-30 linds. Resellers were engaged in honest business, do not spoil your karma by saying evil about good people - especially since you do not understand the issue.

[CelestineDemetria]

18 minutes ago, Patch Linden said:

Hey everyone!

The FAQ's have been updated again and we hope this further helps with more clarity on some specific items.  
 

I wanted to thank everyone for the thoughtful discussion to date, along with the many suggestions and questions regarding the policy.  In general, we will not be monitoring this thread as closely and as we see any other areas that we need to cover, we will continue to keep the FAQ updated.  

Q. So a Breedable box from the Creator that says Random breedable at time of sales is Okay? As long as you know it's a EX.cat in the box.

Because most Breedables, not all but some give only that much to work with just a (animal) in a box all other things randomized at time of purchase so you don't know if it's that Blue cat or that Brown cat, it's a surprise.

[Coffee Pancake]

I disagree with the "roller" style machines.

You're buying an item AND a random roll. 

This is only slightly better than a blank vendor that sells you a blank warm up product to then get into then having a chance of the "rare".

There is no way in hell we wont see vendors coded to revert to a common item when left alone a while and hidden mechanics like "buy 6 commons to get a chance of the rare".

[simplemint]

6 minutes ago, Viche Hexem said:

Heyyyyy, so it turns out the convey belt system IS okay! Funny that's what I thought would end up being okay all those posts ago, now lets get to discussing the finer points of how to make the conveyor system work: what potential issues might it have and how might we solve them?

Thinking as a consumer:

• Potential traffic problems. Assuming the conveyor belt is popular enough, it may need to be set somewhere that many avatars could crowd around without blocking other products - similarly to how some stores organize their lucky letter and Midnight Mania boards. 
• Potential drama? Say, one person gets mad that another 'steals their item'. I suppose the belts could be set up in such a way that multiple people can buy the item within a set time period, or that the last person who purchases an item has the machine locked to them for x seconds similarly to how they do it in Skill Gaming regions. 
• Determining the optimal time for changing over an item. What if an item stays locked on the board for hours or even days? Should there be a mechanism put in place to automatically rotate an item out after x period if time should no one purchase it?
• What mechanisms for gifting an item to another avatar would be put in place? I know people liked transferring gachas, and based on the FAQ I'd assume that transferrable items sold in this format are fine.
• And of course, teaching customers how the new mechanism works.

[Elyssa Artis]

4 minutes ago, CelestineDemetria said:

Q. So a Breedable box from the Creator that says Random breedable at time of sales is Okay? As long as you know it's a EX.cat in the box.

Because most Breedables, not all but some give only that much to work with just a (animal) in a box all other things randomized at time of purchase so you don't know if it's that Blue cat or that Brown cat, it's a surprise.

Nope, the way they say it's okay is you will have to know the color you are getting. Other things like tails and ears can be random, but color/coat will have to be known.

[Anairah Galicia]

2 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

I disagree with the "roller" style machines.

You're buying an item AND a random roll. 

This is only slightly better than a blank vendor that sells you a blank warm up product to then get into then having a chance of the "rare".

There is no way in hell we wont see vendors coded to revert to a common item when left alone a while and hidden mechanics like "buy 6 commons to get a chance of the rare".

Like, the more items you buy, the greater the chance of having the rare become available for purchase? If so, I agree, I can totally see people exploiting this to make more money off the buyer.

[Bree Giffen]

A conveyer belt sounds like fun. If we can also ride on the conveyor belt it could become the unstoppable replacement of gachas. 

[Elyssa Artis]

1 minute ago, simplemint said:

Thinking as a consumer:

• Potential traffic problems. Assuming the conveyor belt is popular enough, it may need to be set somewhere that many avatars could crowd around without blocking other products - similarly to how some stores organize their lucky letter and Midnight Mania boards. 
• Potential drama? Say, one person gets mad that another 'steals their item'. I suppose the belts could be set up in such a way that multiple people can buy the item within a set time period, or that the last person who purchases an item has the machine locked to them for x seconds similarly to how they do it in Skill Gaming regions. 
• Determining the optimal time for changing over an item. What if an item stays locked on the board for hours or even days? Should there be a mechanism put in place to automatically rotate an item out after x period if time should no one purchase it?
• What mechanisms for gifting an item to another avatar would be put in place? I know people liked transferring gachas, and based on the FAQ I'd assume that transferrable items sold in this format are fine.
• And of course, teaching customers how the new mechanism works.

1. Show friends only
2. Machine could be scripted to stay locked to the previous buyer for 30seconds to give them first option at the next up item.
3. Seems like it will change only upon buying
4. Yeah, seems like tfr will still be okay with this conveyor system
5. Yeah, always an issue with new things, thankfully there's enough people following all this, shouldn't be too difficult.

[Coffee Pancake]

2 minutes ago, Elyssa Artis said:

Nope, the way they say it's okay is you will have to know the color you are getting. Other things like tails and ears can be random, but color/coat will have to be known.

No that is not what they are saying.

You have to know the core features of the item you're buying. This is not just limited to it's color.

 

That would be like having a gacha that always gave you the green dress, but randomly chose what body it was rigged for.

[Coffee Pancake]

2 minutes ago, Anairah Galicia said:

Like, the more items you buy, the greater the chance of having the rare become available for purchase? If so, I agree, I can totally see people exploiting this to make more money off the buyer.

We already have gacha machines that punish/milk players who have shown interest in repeat plays.

There are EVIL gacha machines and we will see EVIL rollers.