New Gacha Policy Discussion

[So Whimsy]

1 minute ago, Sinvares Tenk said:

And what you claimed is..... Btw just to let you in a little secret i have gotten reares and ultra rares in just a metter of a few plays. Its not that dificult like them no devil games you play.

There is no difficulty in chance.

[LittleMe Jewell]

30 minutes ago, Alaintha Loring said:

I now wonder what else LL is going to be doing to ruin our fun... ????

Yes, LL is definitely doing this to ruin everyone's fun............... because that is the best way to stay out of legal trouble and grow SL.

[Katherine Heartsong]

46 minutes ago, ZacharyFen said:

Gotchas are a 1 set price item, most of which if you play an x amount of times your guranteed a rare.

Nope. That's not how random/chance works.

You flip a coin and gets heads. What are the odds of getting heads on your next flip?

Your rare?

Let's say it's a 1/100 chance to get one on a pull. Your first pull you don't. Your next pull? It's not 2/100 now, it's still 1/100.

You are never guaranteed that rare without infinite pulls (at 50L a pop, btw). That's why sellers like gachas. People keep pulling. That's the draw. The allure. The slight-of-hand. The false sense we all fall prey to that insidiously whispers "one more pull and I know I'll get it this time".

It's why lotteries exist. Human nature is a cruel mistress.

[Alwin Alcott]

11 minutes ago, Alaintha Loring said:

 LL has taken the "Fun" out of shopping for me..

what did you not understand yet about they háve to, or it will be the end of total SL?

[Athyssa Seafarer]

11 minutes ago, Komarimono said:

I'd have to disagree, since the Gacha currently do not guarantee a sale for what you want.  I literally just tested it.  75L a pull.  Tried 30 times.  Did not get a single Rare from the Machine.  Sure, that's only what... $10 USD?  But that's over 2K L that someone won't get back.  It's a gamble, on what you get.  Saying otherwise is a lie.

Is it? here is a picture of a recent gacha I played:

Corwin creates some of the most fantastic fun fantasy items! Every thing that is in the machine is on the AD for it! it states there are 3 Rares! You are Guaranteed an item with each purchase. Simply because you spent 2k trying to get the rare is your choice! I pay because I find them so adorable and silly! I am happy with any of them, I did receive the MechaChonk but I wished I could have received the City!!! I also spent Epiphany points to get the Pink Elusive Chonkzilla She runs around the house.

As long as you recieve a prize, it isn't gambling.

 

[Katherine Heartsong]

1 hour ago, CathrynDawn said:

I can't believe they are trying to say that gachas are gambling.

They are no different than the gumball machines I used to drop coins in as a child.

Gambling. Definition. Gambling is the wagering something of value (Lindens) on an event with an uncertain outcome (you do NOT know what will come out of the gacha with certainty) with the intent of winning something of (dubious) value.

I highlighted the parts that make gachas gambling.

Gumball machine. Place money into slot, twist, hear rattle, hope the door holds the gumball in and it doesn't fly onto the floor, get a gumball. You bought a gumball, not a CHANCE of a gumball.

You seriously can't see the difference?

[So Whimsy]

On the upside, I got my jumping spider set complete<3 Gacha's can go away now.

[So Whimsy]

1 minute ago, Alaintha Loring said:

As long as you recieve a prize, it isn't gambling.

 

 

2600 posts later and people still don't realize it very much is. Losing my faith in humanity here.

[Katherine Heartsong]

Just now, So Whimsy said:

On the upside, I got my jumping spider set complete<3 Gacha's can go away now.

I got three different Hellhunds, so I'm good too!

Though I technically needed only one since I'm buying different skin textures from vendors.

[So Whimsy]

I can't be bothered to sell my multiple's so if anyone wants a random animesh jumping spider you hold in your hand for free just let me know and I'll send on your way<3 No gambling needed!

[Silent Mistwalker]

22 minutes ago, Sinvares Tenk said:

Well lets just put it this way then, your donating to that vendor and in return your getting a random Free gift you can continue to donate to that vendor and continue to recieve a random Free gift. Now its no longer considered gambling. Now you can resale that FREE gift on the market to recieve some money back.

 

Problem solved. (drops Mic)

anything you buy on the marketplace is a gamble simple fact.

Random is chance. Chance has been banned. Eliminate the random and it is no longer considered gambling.

[LittleMe Jewell]

41 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Well we don't know to what extent people have complained about them. I have in past though never officially and looking at the number of posters who are ecstatic about their demise, I suspect a fair number have not liked them in past so maybe for LL this was an opportunity to get rid of something that was questionable and now had a potential legal issue behind it to put some weight behind their decision.

Lots of folks complain about many aspects of SL.  Over the years, I had heard far more complaints about various aspects of the sex industry in SL and complaints about the simulated abuse in SL.  Those are areas that also involve some legal aspects in some locales around the world.  Hell, a-g-e play was disallowed specifically because of the legal issues around the world.  Lots of people complained about gambling, but I'm pretty sure that was only disallowed (and partially restructured to 'skill gaming') because of the regulations around online gambling - not because people complained.

LL makes money off of gachas -- the MP resell commissions, the purchase of regions and mainland that are used to host the various events & stores where gachas are sold, the people that buy L$ to buy the gachas, the people that sell L$ from gacha sales, the people that cash out the USD balance that came from gacha sales.  

I honestly cannot see them getting rid of gacha for any other reason than legal stuff that is coming down the pipe.

 

 

41 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Regardless it is a discussion thread that is allowing some to vent their frustrations at the decision and to potentially look for alternative methods of being able to market what are in many cases superior products, for a fair price to both creator and consumer. If it is considered a rare item that obviously increases its value. 

I don't get this having to jump on every poster who is unhappy about the decision to stop this. Most to my mind are simply going through the stages of letting go: 1. Denial, 2. Anger, 3. Bargaining, 4. Sadness, 5. Acceptance. The more their concerns are minimized and trivialized, the longer it will take.

The thread is not here specifically for folks to vent.  It is hear to discuss & question the full ramifications -- what else might be impacted - and to discuss options.

I'm not jumping on people for venting.  I'm simply posting corrections to the misinformation when folks state that LL is doing this because some people don't like gacha.  Some people not liking something is most definitely not going to cause LL to throw away all of the income they receive from something.

And I will continue to correct the ones that can't seem to figure out that this is not "all about them".

 

Edited August 5, 2021 by LittleMe Jewell

[LittleMe Jewell]

35 minutes ago, Sinvares Tenk said:

Given the fact id have to agree that gochas just are not gambling, Its what we call a great marketing oppurtunity, While you can resale them and possibly not of the same gatcha price you can safely say you will get something back in return. In gambling it always involves losing most if not all, prize giving isn't entirely gambling ok you see something your like so you try a few times. While your not losing money because each turn your winning an item sometime the same but most of the time its something diferent. The chances of not getting a rare is not insanly high, and not all items of rare people want. At the point that all of the items are resalable and Marhetable makes it a non Gambling item. There is no work around on this. The point that if it was a no transfer item making it a gamble yes that is very correct, but since these items are tradable and resalable doesnt make it a game it makes it a market.

The truth of the matter is that it would not matter if everyone in SL agreed it was not gambling.  It wouldn't matter if LL agreed that gacha is not gambling.  

The only thing that matters is what the various laws are and what LL's legal folks say about how those laws might or might not apply to SL.

[Rowan Amore]

As @LittleMe Jewellhas said countless times, apparently to no avail,  no one is asking anyone's opinion on whether gachas are gambling or not.  It's irrelevant.  LL's lawyers are NOT going to read your justification and say,  "By god!  you're right!  It's not gambling!  Let the gacha return!"  

Sell your stuff like everyone else has done since SL began.  Resellers?  Sorry, but making money (if you did make any) off the hard work of others is over.

 

[Silent Mistwalker]

7 minutes ago, So Whimsy said:

On the upside, I got my jumping spider set complete<3 Gacha's can go away now.

Send a postcard please. 🤭

[Katherine Heartsong]

11 minutes ago, Alaintha Loring said:

As long as you recieve a prize, it isn't gambling.

So wrong.

If you do not know the prize you are getting, it is gambling. Any chance element that is introduced to what you receive is considered to be gambling. You may not think so, but every dictionary I have in my house (seven of them, in fact) disagrees with you.

Again ... what I know is gambling is what the dictionary defines it as ...

Gambling is the wagering something of value on an event with an uncertain outcome with the intent of winning something of value.

This is where so many of the disagreements are stemming from in this thread, because we as a group can not seem to agree on the fundamental definition of gambling. I know I have made that mistake (apologies, dear @Finite).

My definition is posted above, taken from the Oxford dictionary. The bold part is what makes gachas gambling. A prize is not the same as prize X, Y, or Z.

Feel free to disagree though.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Katherine Heartsong

[Silent Mistwalker]

6 minutes ago, So Whimsy said:

I can't be bothered to sell my multiple's so if anyone wants a random animesh jumping spider you hold in your hand for free just let me know and I'll send on your way<3 No gambling needed!

ok Then. To heck with the postcard! lol If you have any left that is. 

[Fionalein]

15 minutes ago, Katherine Heartsong said:

Nope. That's not how random/chance works.

You flip a coin and gets heads. What are the odds of getting heads on your next flip?

Your rare?

Let's say it's a 1/100 chance to get one on a pull. Your first pull you don't. Your next pull? It's not 2/100 now, it's still 1/100.

You are never guaranteed that rare without infinite pulls (at 50L a pop, btw). That's why sellers like gachas. People keep pulling. That's the draw. The allure. The slight-of-hand. The false sense we all fall prey to that insidiously whispers "one more pull and I know I'll get it this time".

It's why lotteries exist. Human nature is a cruel mistress.

To be fair I indeed remember one obsure shopowner who once had his gachas "rigged" in favour of his customers, he indeed guaranteed a rare on the so and soth pull - but that is not how regular gacha machines work.

related:

https://dilbert.com/strip/2001-10-25

Edited August 5, 2021 by Fionalein

[Finite]

1 minute ago, Katherine Heartsong said:

 

This is where so many of the disagreements are stemming from in this thread, because we as a group can not seem to agree on the fundamental definition of gambling. I know I have made that mistake (apologies, dear @Finite).

 

None necessary. I enjoy debating. 

[So Whimsy]

Just now, Silent Mistwalker said:

ok Then. To heck with the postcard! lol If you have any left that is. 

Send me a nudge in world, I can't find you in search!^^

[LittleMe Jewell]

4 minutes ago, Katherine Heartsong said:

This is where so many of the disagreements are stemming from in this thread, because we as a group can not seem to agree on the fundamental definition of gambling.

That and the fact that so many apparently think that the definition matters here.

[Kathlen Onyx]

14 minutes ago, So Whimsy said:

I can't be bothered to sell my multiple's so if anyone wants a random animesh jumping spider you hold in your hand for free just let me know and I'll send on your way<3 No gambling needed!

ohhhh, I want one! lol

[Athyssa Seafarer]

2 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

The truth of the matter is that it would not matter if everyone in SL agreed it was not gambling.  It wouldn't matter if LL agreed that gacha is not gambling.  

The only thing that matters is what the various laws are and what LL's legal folks say about how those laws might or might not apply to SL.

After 13 years, it has come down to SL is a business, no longer an imaginative world but just another world like our real lives. I once enjoyed playing here. I was amazed at the creativity, the imagination of so many people, awed by the depth and detail of places I've visited. I have made friends as well as enemies and some friends are now part of my real life. I've watched how people have grown and changed; as well as watching creators excell at their designs! Now, I see it for what it really is *sighs*. The rose colored glasses have been removed...

 

[Fionalein]

11 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

That and the fact that so many apparently think that the definition matters here.

But that is exactely the problem. In an international business endeavour as SL the many many definitions of gambling matter. ALL OF THEM – AT ONCE! Each and every jurisdiction's definition whereever you try to do business in.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Fionalein

[Theresa Tennyson]

1 hour ago, CathrynDawn said:

I can't believe they are trying to say that gachas are gambling. They are no different than the gumball machines I used to drop coins in as a child. Are you telling me that I started gambling at that age of 3 or 4? However old I was when I got my first bright shiny penny to put in the machine? (Yeah, I know... that means I am OLD). Seriously, those crane games you walk past in Walmart before you even get to the carts are much more of a gamble than a gacha is. With a gacha, I am getting something in return with each purchase I make. With those crane games, you are lucky if you walk away with a 50 cent toy after dropping $5, taking one turn after another. This is absolutely idiotic. 

Now let's step into the Food Town Casino, also known as the entrance to the local grocery store. There are a variety of vending machines there.

One is full of Eye of Terror gumballs - all basically identical chewable bloodshot eyes, same color. All outcomes of putting in a coin are effectively the same. Not gambling.

One is full of giant gumballs of various colors, but basically identical otherwise. Any given gumball has identical value as a chewable object. Assuming that there isn't some non-standard motive - i.e. you want to dye your tongue a specific color for some reason - probably not gambling.

Next is the NFL football helmets in capsules. Exactly the same size, weight, and materials; identical in market value and rarity; but for various reasons the quarter-owner may want some teams more than others. This probably is gambling - using money to cause a random outcome where some outcomes are better than others to the person spending the money.

Now the next capsule machine has various different stuff in it, ranging from crappy rubber aliens to (as the quarter-owner's heart starts beating faster) temporary tattoos. The temporary tattoos are much less common than the rubber aliens, as well they should be. Now we're flat-out into gambling. Really can't say otherwise.

Now, it's not illegal gambling because the stakes aren't high enough to attract legal attention. People say that "gambling is illegal", when usually what they mean is that it is regulated. In most jurisdictions it's legal to have friends over to gamble but not to run a business for the purposes of gambling.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Theresa Tennyson