New Gacha Policy Discussion

[Ceka Cianci]

2 hours ago, Minx Kurosawa said:

 I hope so.. and I just hope they clean it all up completely.. it's not just gachas that are the problem.

Those on the market place are not using the gacha system, that's just how those store owners obtained those items.

So if nobody ever bought anymore of those items that are on the market place that were obtained from the gacha system to resell. They would remain because they are not against the rules..

[Arielle Popstar]

40 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

 

You trashed an outfit just because an accessory you bought separately didn't work out? And you didn't bother to look for something else that might have worked even better?

Must be nice to have money to burn like that. We truly do live in a throw away society.

As I pointed out in a couple of other previous posts, the picture of the outfit ad and the demo both showed the attachment to make it look like it was included. It was after buying the outfit that I realized it was an attachment that had to be bought separately. The demo was only one color and therefore was not able to see that the attachment was not color coordinated with the colors of the outfit. Deceptive to put it politely. It made the attachment useless since it was no mod and only allowed the mismatched colors of the hud.

S/L by its nature is throwaway. It awaits the day someone trips over the cord and plunges the world into darkness. That is why I also have my own private grid for the past 12 years.

[Madelaine McMasters]

7 hours ago, Innula Zenovka said:

On 8/11/2021 at 6:56 PM, Mollymews said:

picking up on this. A consideration for shopkeepers

the fatpack price should be the sum of the single pull probabilities of the items in the machine

for example with the 22 item set:

18 * 5 = 90
 1 * 4 =  4
 1 * 3 =  3
 1 * 2 =  2
 1 * 1 =  1
        ---
        100
 
pull price L$20. 100 * 20 = L$2,000

when the fatpack price is greater than this then is not a good deal. Better off to play the machine

when the machine approaches infinity (as it is designed to do) then the expectation is that the return will be 90,4,3,2,1 for every 100 pulls. 100 * 20 = L$2,000

the consideration for the shopkeeper is that players will take the fatpack price as the indicator of the probability table in the machine (in the absence of any other information)

for example:  Pull price L$20. Fatpack price: $3,000. 3000 / 20 = 150. This indicates that the machine is expected to pay out the 1 rare every 150  pulls. When this is not the case in the example table above

How do I go about calculating the likely range of pulls it's going to take to collect a full set?   

If I'm incredibly lucky, and get item different one each pull, it's going to take me 22 pulls.  But to achieve that I have to pull a different item each time, which is very unlikely to happen.     There's a probability curve there somewhere, but I don't know how to calculate that.   

Can anyone assist me?   What's the sort of median spend if I try to collect a full set?  

I haven't been following this thread, but it seems that a random vendor would peeve people pretty quickly by selling them things they'd just bought. In Molly's example of a 22 item fatpack, over the course of 22 draws, there would be 22^22 possible combinations, or about 3.4e29. Most of those would contain unacceptable repeats. If we don't allow them, there are 22 acceptable outcomes for the first pull, 21 for the second, 20 for the third and only one acceptable outcome for the last. So, the total combination of acceptable pulls in 22 tries is 22 factorial, or about 1.1e21. So, the probability of pulling all 22 items from the machine in only 22 draws is about 1 in 300 million.

A a check, this is somewhat like the birthday problem. Here's a calculator for that...

https://www.dcode.fr/birthday-problem

If I check "THAT NOT ANY ONE", "A SAME DAY", set N=2, people in the group = 22 (the number of different items we want from the fatpack), and days in a year to 22 (the total number of different items in the fatpack), I get a probability of 0.00000000329, or about 1 in 300 million.

But, that's not what you're asking. You want to know how many times you have to play to get the entire set. It's less than 300 million times, but you probably don't need complete certainty, do you? So, this is really the coupon collector's problem, and there's a calculator for that, too...

http://www.distributome.org/js/calc/CouponCollectorCalculator.html

If you set the population size (the number of items in the fatpack) to 22 and the stopping point to 22 (you stop when you get them all) and set your acceptable probability of success to 99% (p=0.99), you see that it will take around 166 pulls, giving you 144 duplicates. If you'll settle for just a 50% chance of getting the entire set, you'll still need 76 pulls, with 54 duplicates.

How'd your intuition do, Innula?

Edited August 13, 2021 by Madelaine McMasters
"Cleanup in paragraph five."

[Maryanne Solo]

3 hours ago, Da5id Weatherwax said:

Thank you @Kirsten Linden - The posts of mine you found it necessary to clear out were pure ridicule of another poster and I accept that it was needed to clean those up to tidy the thread. Can we have the REST of the ad-hom attacks and conspiracy theories by one particular "respected forum member" cleaned up too?

Yes thank you.
I don't bite bait often but when I do I go in hard.
Deservedly so.

[Faly Breen]

Ok, today i was actively checking places for gachas since i was on a Sim and they linked to an event calling "goodbye gacha" in which some people sell now all their gacha stuff for a super low price of ~25L$ for each role.

if you wanna know more about it, check it here https://www.theepiphanysl.com/goodbyegacha

 

But im actually not here to make advertising for that...

I was more someone who, so i thought, saw a lot gachas already and went for the "human mind" thing - thats also a reason why i complained first and formost about the smaller gachas like collecting cards, bubblegum gachas or similar since im sure those would not be a reason that LL "suddendly" creates such harsh rule...

But after just exploring the list i liked there from top down to the letter "B" by now...

I mean NOW i can totally understand why people dislike gachas and im really with them. I mean, as i said before, it is a dang shame that such smaller gachas LIKE bubblegum gachas, collecting cards AND similar suffer such fate only coz of people which literally put dress ups - PIECE BY PIECE -, HAIRCUTS and freaking POSES into a gacha!

 

No im srs, i totally understand the people which hated gachas coz THIS is really something i thought i will not see. Pose gachas? HAIRcut gachas?? Seriously???

Again, If such stuff is gone, i dont cry after them but its again a shame for collecting cards and like. LL should maybe overthink their rules there coz those sure doesnt hurt anyone but THOSE others? Nope. Glad they are gone soon. SUCH stuff C-A-N at least be sold without a random system behind, for real, you dont need to sell "haircuts or poses at RANDOM". Collecting- & Trading cards in the other hand will still be hard to sell if they are not random.

Edited August 13, 2021 by Faly Breen

[Irina Forwzy]

4 hours ago, Minx Kurosawa said:

 I hope so.. and I just hope they clean it all up completely.. it's not just gachas that are the problem.

Hold up. What is the problem now?   Gachas will remain in the marketplace, because they are not sold by the creator but rather from end users.  Thus not breaking the rules. As for other items filter can help. And what one may not like, someone else may like.

Edited August 13, 2021 by Irina Forwzy

[Irina Forwzy]

5 hours ago, Finite said:

It's pretty common. Especially with clothing since you cannot get access to popular rigs unless you are an established vendor. Nearly every clothing vendor started off with premade.

As for 3rd party there is still a decent amount of work in getting them into secondlife. It's not a simple save as DAE process.

This is what happens when you keep sophisticating Sl design process.  Before it wasn't mesh and someone could learn easily.  With mesh and physics that came with that, many of the individuals had to learn at the very level of graphic designers. And not everyone has the time, patience, or the $$$ to go for that career type to only earn peanuts in SL because everyone wants things at 50 to 75 Lindens unless you are in 20 events per week.

[Leo Llewelyn]

What's the word on performer tipjars that give out random tat with amusing chat messages to people who tip? The payment is a donation to support the performer, rather than to obtain the gift; does that insulate it enough so as not to run afoul of the gacha ban?

[Mollymews]

7 minutes ago, Leo Llewelyn said:

What's the word on performer tipjars that give out random tat with amusing chat messages to people who tip? The payment is a donation to support the performer, rather than to obtain the gift; does that insulate it enough so as not to run afoul of the gacha ban?

this is a good question for @Patch Linden

[Finite]

56 minutes ago, Irina Forwzy said:

This is what happens when you keep sophisticating Sl design process.  Before it wasn't mesh and someone could learn easily.  With mesh and physics that came with that, many of the individuals had to learn at the very level of graphic designers. And not everyone has the time, patience, or the $$$ to go for that career type to only earn peanuts in SL because everyone wants things at 50 to 75 Lindens unless you are in 20 events per week.

Hmm I've taken graphic design, never took 3D. 3D is more game design or architectural. 2 fields that pay pretty well. Is why most of the really good original creators in SL do it mostly for fun.

Maya is preferred software (I believe) but Blender is good and free and there are tons of Blender guides on Youtube. Also, the learning curve in blender is about the same if not less steep as working with prims in SL. You're building like your normally would in blender or other 3d software rather than trying to wiggle a shape to do what you want using buttons.

Edit: Realizing its been 10 years since I took graphic design it's possible there is some crossover with 3D design since 3D print is more prevalent nowadays.

Edited August 13, 2021 by Finite

[Coffee Pancake]

58 minutes ago, Finite said:

Hmm I've taken graphic design, never took 3D. 3D is more game design or architectural. 2 fields that pay pretty well. Is why most of the really good original creators in SL do it mostly for fun.

Maya is preferred software (I believe) but Blender is good and free and there are tons of Blender guides on Youtube. Also, the learning curve in blender is about the same if not less steep as working with prims in SL. You're building like your normally would in blender or other 3d software rather than trying to wiggle a shape to do what you want using buttons.

Edit: Realizing its been 10 years since I took graphic design it's possible there is some crossover with 3D design since 3D print is more prevalent nowadays.

Maya's dominance is coming to an end, blender is the raising star and is attracting substantial industry support. Being able to demonstrate skill and a portfolio in blender is sufficient to open the door for commercial work regardless of what an employer may use internally, the high level skills translate.

1 hour ago, Irina Forwzy said:

This is what happens when you keep sophisticating Sl design process.  Before it wasn't mesh and someone could learn easily.  With mesh and physics that came with that, many of the individuals had to learn at the very level of graphic designers. And not everyone has the time, patience, or the $$$ to go for that career type to only earn peanuts in SL because everyone wants things at 50 to 75 Lindens unless you are in 20 events per week.

All high level skills take time and dedication to develop. If someone want's to be a painter or musician, they have to put the time in.

SL might not be an attractive end goal for the career minded, but there is no reason it can't nurture those skills and provide purpose.

The best kept secret is that you don't need anyone's permission or training to take control of your own education, advancement and goals. The journey, rather than the direct or immediate    end result is the reward.

[Silent Mistwalker]

4 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

As I pointed out in a couple of other previous posts, the picture of the outfit ad and the demo both showed the attachment to make it look like it was included. It was after buying the outfit that I realized it was an attachment that had to be bought separately. The demo was only one color and therefore was not able to see that the attachment was not color coordinated with the colors of the outfit. Deceptive to put it politely. It made the attachment useless since it was no mod and only allowed the mismatched colors of the hud.

S/L by its nature is throwaway. It awaits the day someone trips over the cord and plunges the world into darkness. That is why I also have my own private grid for the past 12 years.

I can read. 

That isn't what is meant by throwaway society. It's real life that is the throwaway society so of course humans behave the same way in SL. It's really a no brainer.

[Ceka Cianci]

4 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

As I pointed out in a couple of other previous posts, the picture of the outfit ad and the demo both showed the attachment to make it look like it was included. It was after buying the outfit that I realized it was an attachment that had to be bought separately. The demo was only one color and therefore was not able to see that the attachment was not color coordinated with the colors of the outfit. Deceptive to put it politely. It made the attachment useless since it was no mod and only allowed the mismatched colors of the hud.

S/L by its nature is throwaway. It awaits the day someone trips over the cord and plunges the world into darkness. That is why I also have my own private grid for the past 12 years.

If it is as you say and you were tricked, then that sounds more like fraud than a gacha game.

[Arielle Popstar]

27 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

If it is as you say and you were tricked, then that sounds more like fraud than a gacha game.

It wasn't a gacha but pointing out that regular marketplace items can be just as much of a gamble and deceptive as gachas.

[Lillith Hapmouche]

Borked logic be borked.

[Ted McGregor]

24 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

It wasn't a gacha but pointing out that regular marketplace items can be just as much of a gamble and deceptive as gachas.

That is why direct sales are bound to rules and transparency by legislation which gachamachines are not offering.

 

Besides, gamble and deceptive the way you use it, points to equal disappointment on the end of the consumer. The discussion however applies to how you sell and not to how you buy.

Edited August 13, 2021 by TDD123

[Ceka Cianci]

15 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

It wasn't a gacha but pointing out that regular marketplace items can be just as much of a gamble and deceptive as gachas.

I don't think it's just as much of a gamble if it's not an every time thing like gachas are vs when shopping from a regular vendor.. Most sellers give a pretty good description of what comes with what they are selling..

some may put it in small print, but most times it's there..

Myself, I like the buy option over the pay option.. It gives me a good look at whats in the package..

As much as people sell single items when showing a full outfit, I make sure I check the cards in the demo packs and anyplace on the add or around it where a full outfit may be on display just to make sure what I'm getting..

I don't get fooled much at all these days..hehehe

[Arielle Popstar]

15 minutes ago, TDD123 said:

That is why direct sales are bound to rules and transparency by legislation which gachamachines are not offering.

S/L does not have rules or legislation insisting on transparency on any other part of the market so it begs the question of why are they starting now on gacha's when there is as yet no concrete legislation even in the real world to limiting them.

[Ceka Cianci]

2 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

S/L does not have rules or legislation insisting on transparency on any other part of the market so it begs the question of why are they starting now on gacha's when there is as yet no concrete legislation even in the real world to limiting them.

Could be because of all the lawsuits going on with similar things..

I don't believe they waited until gambling laws had passed before removing gambling back when that was going on.

[Alwin Alcott]

20 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

 when there is as yet no concrete legislation even in the real world to limiting them.

that's irrelevant. A market can always restrict sales methods or items. In europe it's not uncommon.

[Finite]

1 hour ago, TDD123 said:

That is why direct sales are bound to rules and transparency by legislation which gachamachines are not offering.

 

Besides, gamble and deceptive the way you use it, points to equal disappointment on the end of the consumer. The discussion however applies to how you sell and not to how you buy.

SL's direct sales aren't bound to any of those. Maybe rules but not transparency. They aren't even required to list what in the picture you are buying. Some do say such and such not included or whatever but SL doesn't require it. Some don't even list the permissions anymore. Which I kind of find funny when I get  snotty response (if i get a response at all) to "hey is this mod?". Like if you stated such I wouldn't have asked.

Edit: I think MP has more strict rules but it's not applied in world for whatever reason.

Edited August 13, 2021 by Finite

[Ted McGregor]

For those believing there are  no rules on selling a product inworld : Rez a box, let it have a hovering text "Pay me and you will receive something", set it to pay and wait for the AR to arrive with you ( Yes, the box gives you nothing at all ).

And secondly , will LL act upon 0 Linden, 1 Linden or any other amount or at all ?

Edited August 13, 2021 by TDD123

[Finite]

1 hour ago, TDD123 said:

For those believing there are  no rules on selling a product inworld : Rez a box, let it have a hovering text "Pay me and you will receive something", set it to pay and wait for the AR to arrive with you ( Yes, the box gives you nothing at all ).

And secondly , will LL act upon 0 Linden, 1 Linden or any other amount or at all ?

Well that would be obvious and applied even to gacha since it is fraud and is in the TOS. But otherwise there's not a whole lot listed restricting sellers or the manner of which they display or advertise what they're selling. There's nothing in the Selling Objects, the TOS nor the Community Standards. In fact the only thing remotely close to a rule is directed towards buyers not sellers.

"Buyer Beware

Linden Lab does not exercise editorial control over, and is not obligated to review, the content offered through the Service. We will investigate and respond to all properly filed intellectual property complaints pursuant to the Intellectual Property Infringement Notification Policy.

Additionally, Linden Lab does not certify or endorse the operation of any games, vending machines, or retail locations offered on the Service. Any refunds must be requested from the owners of such objects directly."

Edited August 13, 2021 by Finite

[Patch Linden]

As it seems this topic has outlived it's usefulness and most of the useful parts of the discussion have concluded, plus the fact that it seems like there is increasing difficulty to stay on topic.  This thread is now closed.  Thank you to everyone who provided thoughtful insight, proposals and engaging conversation that helped us navigate the situation with everyone involved.