I Will not accept Tilia

[Garnet Psaltery]

[Coffee Pancake]

All the Tilia threads after the town hall.

[Fionalein]

7 minutes ago, CoffeeDujour said:

All the Tilia threads after the town hall.

One possible outcome. The other is they turn into terror birds.

Edited July 12, 2019 by Fionalein

[Polenth Yue]

The official thread looks fierce! I've met some of those owls, and they always look at you like they'll mess you up if you get any closer.

[Selene Gregoire]

43 minutes ago, Polenth Yue said:

The official thread looks fierce! I've met some of those owls, and they always look at you like they'll mess you up if you get any closer.

Say wha?

[Kimmi Zehetbauer]

3 hours ago, Fionalein said:

what is that? Sounds like Facebook's very own cryptocurrency

Let's keep Zuck's hands off of SL. If he had his way everything you do on the web would go through him.

[Orwar]

[Sylvia Tamalyn]

2 hours ago, Polenth Yue said:

The official thread looks fierce! I've met some of those owls, and they always look at you like they'll mess you up if you get any closer.

I agree! I love photos of stroppy owls. 

[Orwar]

4 minutes ago, Sylvia Tamalyn said:

I agree! I love photos of stroppy owls. 

[Marx Dudek]

I just had a horrendous experience trying to withdraw funds from Second Life.

I was interrogated basically like a suspected criminal, and finally I was told I could not withdraw the funds. And then the Tilia rep closed the ticket so I could not respond.

If this is the future of Second Life, I have no intentions of putting any more money into Second Life.  And I'm reconsidering some major musical events I had planned.

[bigmoe Whitfield]

37 minutes ago, Marx Dudek said:

I just had a horrendous experience trying to withdraw funds from Second Life.

I was interrogated basically like a suspected criminal, and finally I was told I could not withdraw the funds. And then the Tilia rep closed the ticket so I could not respond.

If this is the future of Second Life, I have no intentions of putting any more money into Second Life.  And I'm reconsidering some major musical events I had planned.

well LL is gonna have to follow the law of the land and those laws say they must collect what they must collect and do what they must do and if that means you must do just this, than that is what you are going to do.   They can not play favorites with this, as it's required now by law.

[Kia Kiyori]

36 minutes ago, Marx Dudek said:

I just had a horrendous experience trying to withdraw funds from Second Life.

I was interrogated basically like a suspected criminal, and finally I was told I could not withdraw the funds. And then the Tilia rep closed the ticket so I could not respond.

If this is the future of Second Life, I have no intentions of putting any more money into Second Life.  And I'm reconsidering some major musical events I had planned.

I'm so sorry to hear you were treated that way. It just isn't right to let officious little dweebs loose on residents and it breaks my heart to hear you're reconsidering your events. 

Collecting info demanded by the law is one thing, how you treat others in the course of doing so, is quite another.

[Zeta Vandyke]

1 hour ago, AnyaJurelle said:

Collecting info demanded by the law is one thing, how you treat others in the course of doing so, is quite another.

Its a bit like when crossing border checkpoints at international airports. I understand they have to ask questions about why you visit and even about your financial status to decide if your not coming in for illegal work and such. But most of the times they do it in a way that makes you feel like you are actually hiding something and can consider yourself lucky to be allowed in. It's probably procedure they must follow, but its quite unsettling and unwelcoming.

[Kia Kiyori]

2 minutes ago, Zeta Vandyke said:

Its a bit like when crossing border checkpoints at international airports. I understand they have to ask questions about why you visit and even about your financial status to decide if your not coming in for illegal work and such. But most of the times they do it in a way that makes you feel like you are actually hiding something and can consider yourself lucky to be allowed in. It's probably procedure they must follow, but its quite unsettling and unwelcoming.

Yes, it's called 'getting too big for their britches'. My Grammie would have set them straight with a slap upside of their heads - you better believe it! haha (Gosh I miss her)

[Zeta Vandyke]

4 minutes ago, TheDarkhand said:

and act like some how they are being intruded on.

Well to be honest, if you are all of a sudden asked to hand over ID, social security and other private information, Its not strange to feel your privacy is being intruded on.

But its directed by law, so accept and go on playing, it or not accept it and stop playing. And if you really not agree on the laws that force them to do this, vote on politicians who would steer towards different laws instead of attacking LL for following the law. That's about all you can do about it really.

[AyelaNewLife]

5 hours ago, Marx Dudek said:

I just had a horrendous experience trying to withdraw funds from Second Life.

I was interrogated basically like a suspected criminal, and finally I was told I could not withdraw the funds. And then the Tilia rep closed the ticket so I could not respond.

If this is the future of Second Life, I have no intentions of putting any more money into Second Life.  And I'm reconsidering some major musical events I had planned.

Did you actually provide the information requested?

Or did you go full "muh freedoms", refuse to follow some basic legal procedures, and then do the surprised pikachu face when your request was denied; and then came to the forums to claim false victimhood?

(Hint: it's almost certainly the latter)

[Wulfie Reanimator]

6 hours ago, AnyaJurelle said:

I'm so sorry to hear you were treated that way. It just isn't right to let officious little dweebs loose on residents and it breaks my heart to hear you're reconsidering your events. 

Collecting info demanded by the law is one thing, how you treat others in the course of doing so, is quite another.

Ah yes, let's believe anything that is said at face-value and no evidence. Surely they wouldn't lie or twist the truth to suit their own narrative?

[TheDarkhand]

1 hour ago, Zeta Vandyke said:

Well to be honest, if you are all of a sudden asked to hand over ID, social security and other private information, Its not strange to feel your privacy is being intruded on.

But its directed by law, so accept and go on playing, it or not accept it and stop playing. And if you really not agree on the laws that force them to do this, vote on politicians who would steer towards different laws instead of attacking LL for following the law. That's about all you can do about it really.

It's an everyday thing from my cable tv provider to a gift card purchase, my information and almost everyone can be easily found with a little google searching.

It's nothing new to anyone that's cashed out L$ from 2013 until today, that would be me my first account in 2013 I was lucky to be able to cash out a few L$ and they froze even my ability to log until I completed the ID send, It was not a large amount of money but seemed perfectly sensible they ask.

The fact you can buy L$ and send to others who do cash worldwide is a perfect way to launder money and it's 100% natural for most governments to want to protect a currency with a small amount of oversite when dealing with international companies exchanging Digi currency with some real currency.

[Zeta Vandyke]

14 minutes ago, TheDarkhand said:

It's an everyday thing from my cable tv provider to a gift card purchase, my information and almost everyone can be easily found with a little google searching.

It's nothing new to anyone that's cashed out L$ from 2013 until today, that would be me my first account in 2013 I was lucky to be able to cash out a few L$ and they froze even my ability to log until I completed the ID send, It was not a large amount of money but seemed perfectly sensible they ask.

The fact you can buy L$ and send to others who do cash worldwide is a perfect way to launder money and it's 100% natural for most governments to want to protect a currency with a small amount of oversite when dealing with international companies exchanging Digi currency with some real currency.

Oh I am not disagreeing. I had to webcam and show passport with my face for certain online payment services. I agree its needed and required by law. In my business we require clients to send copies of IDs, personal and chamber of commerce information too for certain services. Its perfectly normal and agreeable for me.

I just said I can see how for some people it feels intrusive if they think they have to give up all sorts of personal info (even if they probably don't have to, or already had to in the past).

[Kia Kiyori]

4 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

Ah yes, let's believe anything that is said at face-value and no evidence. Surely they wouldn't lie or twist the truth to suit their own narrative?

Ah yes - I quite forgot the 'guilty until proven innocent' mindset.

In that instance, of course I'm entirely wrong. We'll have to agree to disagree, Wulfie, because in situations like this, I will always - always - give residents the benefit of the doubt against corporate nonsense.

In any event, why on earth would someone with a reputation they've worked to maintain and who relies upon said reputation to earn their income, lie?

Oh never mind - I'm sure 'guilty until proven innocent' has a suitable 'tar & feather' retort for that, too.

Moving right along....

[Drayke Newall]

15 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said:

It's been said several times, but I will repeat, since it's clear that a lot of folks have not been listening.

YOU ARE ALREADY DOING BUSINESS WITH TILIA.  Take a look at MoiraKathleen's screenshot two posts up.  This has been the case for three years now!

LL is now asking you to agree to a second set of terms and conditions because of US laws that now require a somewhat greater separation between Second Life and LL's Tilia subsidiary, which handles the money.,

Everyone must agree to the Tilia terms in order to continue using SL.  Selene, just by having an SL avatar account, you DO have a financial account, although there might not be any money in it.  Because of that, you do have to agree to the terms and conditions of that account.  However, you do not have to provide any additional personal information EXCEPT if you wish to do a Process Credit transaction and take money out of SL back into RL.

Having money processed through Tilia as it is now is vastly different to having an account automatically created for you, separate from your current and only account with Labs (although tied to) of which can also have its TOS changed independently from Second Life. For example, if now or in the future Labs or you ties your Tilia account to another game or service (if labs expand the Tilia Service to other games/services) and somehow something happens on that other game/service that gets you into trouble with Tilia and forces your Tilia account to be terminated, what will happen to your SL account which is separate from the before mentioned incident? Will it also be terminated, resulting in loss of potential income to those that use SL as a business outlet and not a game? If I lost access to paypal (i.e. banned) would I have also lost access to ebay when it was owned by ebay? No and vice versa.

The TOS at the moment states that your Tilia account can be closed. Does this mean the account can be closed and still allow access to Second life? The fact that I need to agree to both TOS's on the 1st August makes me think no. But the TOS does not imply as such.

You also mention US laws making a separation necessary, however if this was the case, linden $ processing, which is handled though Tilia according to that screenshot, would (I would have thought) be equally liable for the same separation laws and trackability. For example if I purchase a parcel of land and pay tier in linden dollars, in some cases I may be able to claim that tier as a tax deduction, given it is a payment necessary to ensure my business in SL runs properly. Wouldn't this also be subject to those processing laws? I'm not from the USA so don't know tax law but seems really odd to require one thing and not the other.

Furthermore, if such a separation was required by law, why will the Tilia account be only accessible through the Second Life dashboard, there certainly isn't an option to login to an account through the Tilia-inc website...

Additionally, you also state that I have a financial account with Labs by having a SL avatar account. I would beg to differ. If I have no payment info in file, how can I have a financial account with them? The SL TOS certainly does not imply that a financial account is created automatically upon creation and also specifically states that linden dollars are not a currency or financial instrument. I may, if I have payment info on file, pay them a single amount to get something in return i.e. Lindens, but nor does that imply a Financial Account. Do you have a financial account with your local supermarket? No, you are a customer paying a once of payment just like any other business transaction. A transaction is different to a financial account by a long way.

It is easy for you to say its all roses, but when an independent TOS is agreed upon it can turn ugly, especially given the very vague legalise the Tilia TOS is written in. Either the TOS needs to be changed to ensure no misunderstanding can occur or the SL TOS needs to also be updated accordingly to ensure that both tie in together answering the very questions that are left open due to the vague nature of the document. Promises in forums or Town Halls mean nothing when such things can magically disappear.

Sure the sky is falling on SL ATM and this is just another thing to contribute to such claims, but such changes without specific answers to questions when the service goes live in just over 15 days is terrible business planning. Not to mention that it uses the same password and username as your SL account a massive no-no in cyber security for different accounts.

All in all, it should be opt-in and opt-in only when you process credit/cash out or specifically opt-in. I don't want or need an account with Tilia, but if I am reading things correctly, even if I don't agree to the Tilia TOS an account will still be created tied to my SL account without my permission as I have seen no indication of otherwise.

That said, I'm playing it by ear but the RL business owner me (if I was operating a business in SL), says not to touch this even with a 10ft pole until there is real written clarification on what happens with accounts etc.

[Selene Gregoire]

17 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

Having money processed through Tilia as it is now is vastly different to having an account automatically created for you, separate from your current and only account with Labs (although tied to) of which can also have its TOS changed independently from Second Life. For example, if now or in the future Labs or you ties your Tilia account to another game or service (if labs expand the Tilia Service to other games/services) and somehow something happens on that other game/service that gets you into trouble with Tilia and forces your Tilia account to be terminated, what will happen to your SL account which is separate from the before mentioned incident? Will it also be terminated, resulting in loss of potential income to those that use SL as a business outlet and not a game? If I lost access to paypal (i.e. banned) would I have also lost access to ebay when it was owned by ebay? No and vice versa.

The TOS at the moment states that your Tilia account can be closed. Does this mean the account can be closed and still allow access to Second life? The fact that I need to agree to both TOS's on the 1st August makes me think no. But the TOS does not imply as such.

You also mention US laws making a separation necessary, however if this was the case, linden $ processing, which is handled though Tilia according to that screenshot, would (I would have thought) be equally liable for the same separation laws and trackability. For example if I purchase a parcel of land and pay tier in linden dollars, in some cases I may be able to claim that tier as a tax deduction, given it is a payment necessary to ensure my business in SL runs properly. Wouldn't this also be subject to those processing laws? I'm not from the USA so don't know tax law but seems really odd to require one thing and not the other.

Furthermore, if such a separation was required by law, why will the Tilia account be only accessible through the Second Life dashboard, there certainly isn't an option to login to an account through the Tilia-inc website...

Additionally, you also state that I have a financial account with Labs by having a SL avatar account. I would beg to differ. If I have no payment info in file, how can I have a financial account with them? The SL TOS certainly does not imply that a financial account is created automatically upon creation and also specifically states that linden dollars are not a currency or financial instrument. I may, if I have payment info on file, pay them a single amount to get something in return i.e. Lindens, but nor does that imply a Financial Account. Do you have a financial account with your local supermarket? No, you are a customer paying a once of payment just like any other business transaction. A transaction is different to a financial account by a long way.

It is easy for you to say its all roses, but when an independent TOS is agreed upon it can turn ugly, especially given the very vague legalise the Tilia TOS is written in. Either the TOS needs to be changed to ensure no misunderstanding can occur or the SL TOS needs to also be updated accordingly to ensure that both tie in together answering the very questions that are left open due to the vague nature of the document. Promises in forums or Town Halls mean nothing when such things can magically disappear.

Sure the sky is falling on SL ATM and this is just another thing to contribute to such claims, but such changes without specific answers to questions when the service goes live in just over 15 days is terrible business planning. Not to mention that it uses the same password and username as your SL account a massive no-no in cyber security for different accounts.

All in all, it should be opt-in and opt-in only when you process credit/cash out or specifically opt-in. I don't want or need an account with Tilia, but if I am reading things correctly, even if I don't agree to the Tilia TOS an account will still be created tied to my SL account without my permission as I have seen no indication of otherwise.

That said, I'm playing it by ear but the RL business owner me (if I was operating a business in SL), says not to touch this even with a 10ft pole until there is real written clarification on what happens with accounts etc.

I am so relieved someone else finally gets what I've been trying to say.  I was beginning to think I was the only one not wearing blinders.

[Wulfie Reanimator]

1 hour ago, AnyaJurelle said:

Oh never mind - I'm sure 'guilty until proven innocent' has a suitable 'tar & feather' retort for that, too.

Sure thing, Ms. "LL/Tilia is guilty until proven innocent."

[Drayke Newall]

1 hour ago, Selene Gregoire said:

I am so relieved someone else finally gets what I've been trying to say.  I was beginning to think I was the only one not wearing blinders.

I'm sure there are others that feel the same. When it comes to peoples personal details or the creation of accounts for them by other parties without your input it opens a can of worms. We recently had a big to-do in Australia where the government wanted to automatically create an account for all Australians with our medical records on it accessible supposedly to only medical practitioners. As you can imagine it went down pretty similar to this announcement by labs and resulted in the government making it opt-out before a set date by which if you opted out in time no account was created.

[Fionalein]

3 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

Sure thing, Ms. "LL/Tilia is guilty until proven innocent."

Er, yes? It is a profit oriented company - what other reaction were they expecting? Sorry but expecting any other reaction is delusional...