I Will not accept Tilia

[MoiraKathleen]

Another interesting point from the Town Hall meeting was that if you are a premium member, you are considered 'active'.  So if you have a USD balance larger than $0,  between either being a premium member and/or logging into your web dashboard and looking at your account page at least once during a 12-month period, it seems pretty easy to avoid being classified as inactive.

 

[Drake1 Nightfire]

2 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

The official thread is only for questions. It was regularly pruned, not merely of comments, but of both questions that were deemed, for whatever reason, unnecessary, undesirable, or irrelevant, and of answers, including a number of mine, all of which actually quoted the official FAQ.

And the answers to her questions were far from clear when she posted this. And, of course, the game has changed since then: she'll no longer need to accept the Tilia TOS, which she did, as of a week ago.

The communication of information on this subject here has been an utter mess. Try not to think like a forumite, Drake! Not every SL residents wants to trawl through pages and pages of confused and sometimes misleading posts to find simple answers! And they shouldn't have to -- not if LL knew what it was about.

As of her posting of this on thursday which was 2 days ago not a week, 

"If I’m only using Linden Dollars, does this impact me at all?
No. If you are only using Linden Dollars, and do not have a USD balance, the ID requirements and the inactivity fee has no impact on your ability to continue using Second Life. For example, it doesn’t impact or change your ability to pay for Land Tier or other activities with Linden Dollars." 

 

[Fionalein]

9 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

As of her posting of this on thursday which was 2 days ago not a week, 

"If I’m only using Linden Dollars, does this impact me at all?
No. If you are only using Linden Dollars, and do not have a USD balance, the ID requirements and the inactivity fee has no impact on your ability to continue using Second Life. For example, it doesn’t impact or change your ability to pay for Land Tier or other activities with Linden Dollars." 

 

Aha drake - now please point me out where that explanation reads - "you do not have to accept the Tilia TOS in that case" go spot it... and don't dare to return before you found it

 

[Chic Aeon]

7 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

Aha drake - now please point me out where that explanation reads - "you do not have to accept the Tilia TOS in that case" go spot it... and don't dare to return before you found it

 

Actually Grumpity said that twice in the video. Someone here said Patch said it also, but I don't recall him doing so.  I don't think we have a transcript yet. Maybe Monday.   If you have NO USD balance in your account, you will not even SEE the TILIA TOS to accept. That's what she told us. You can see it on the video. I was listening 'cause I was HAPPY.  That is my plan.    That was certainly NOT THE ORIGINAL NEWS when the Tilia change was unveiled in the blog post on July 1. This was one of the "new news" things from the video.    

 

Note though that you will only be able to pay tier with Linden Dollars so that means renting from an estate or mainland rental company.  There "might" (very much a might it sounded like to me from Patch's voice) be an option to pay mainland tier with Lindens in the future[this said towards the end of the Town Hall video. That would mean that you could charge your membership to Paypal or whatever and STILL keep your premium status and still be able to own mainland and pay for it with lindens you have earned. That would be a big deal for me (and likely other creators) as it would let them own mainland (not a linden home where there is no tier) and pay the tier with lindens. Honestly I have absolutely NO idea what I am going to do with my lindens LOL, but hopefully I will find a new project to spend them on. 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

7 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

Actually Grumpity said that twice in the video. Someone here said Patch said it also, but I don't recall him doing so. 

What Fiona means is that it's not to be found in the FAQ on the official Tilia thread. Or, it wasn't when the OP posted this thread.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

23 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

Aha drake - now please point me out where that explanation reads - "you do not have to accept the Tilia TOS in that case" go spot it... and don't dare to return before you found it

 

You could easily infer from that answer that if you do not have a USD balance you dont need to accept it as it says, "has no impact on your ability to continue using Second Life." 

[Annie Nova]

27 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

Honestly I have absolutely NO idea what I am going to do with my lindens LOL, but hopefully I will find a new project to spend them on. 

Oooh!! Oooh!!! I know! I know!!! You can give them to me???? *Laughs* 

[Drake1 Nightfire]

34 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

What Fiona means is that it's not to be found in the FAQ on the official Tilia thread. Or, it wasn't when the OP posted this thread.

Perhaps, instead of freaking out and rage quitting, they could have asked in that thread..

[Talligurl]

3 hours ago, DilliDallagio said:

Yes, the nitpickers will pick but it was pretty evident to me that a zero $ balance will not bring forth the ToS.

Oh darn, I was really hoping this would weed out a lot of the stupid people.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

3 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Perhaps, instead of freaking out and rage quitting, they could have asked in that thread..

Well, yes. Probably they should have done that.

But they didn't, did they? And a whole lot of other people won't either.

It doesn't matter what you or even LL think they should have done: what matters is what they actually do. And what a lot of them have been doing over the last week is throwing up their hands in rage or confusion and walking away without learning more. Many of them will undoubtedly stay in SL, dissatisfied and angry, and that's not going to help the platform much, will it? And others will unquestionably leave. Among those who go will be creators, landlords, renters, RPers, DJs, artists, and, maybe most importantly, consumers. And whether you think they are a loss to the community as a whole or not, Second Life, and its economy, is going to feel that.

There's a real irony here: I'm the actual, literal socialist in this conversation, but apparently I am the one who has to draw your attention to two basic principles of good business practice.

The first is Corporate Public Relations 101: control the narrative. That means, when you announce a change, especially one likely to be contentious, have all the information in place ahead of time so that you aren't leaving others to make it up themselves, and creating an unflattering counter-narrative in the process. Make sure that information is accessible, credible, and, most importantly, that it makes your company look good. There is some reason to hope that maybe LL has begun to move on this front, but their attempts to control the narrative over the past week and a half have been utterly woeful.

The second is, if you want people to use your product, make it simple to access, and easy to use. If you're selling computers to the general public, don't provide instruction manuals that only someone with a computer science degree will understand. And, to this point, LL has not made understanding the Tilia thing at all easy. As things stand right now, those who want to understand what Tilia means to them have to come to a place -- the forums -- that most never even knew existed, and plough their way through competing lengthy and confusing threads, or they have to watch a one hour video featuring static avatars sitting on a stage. LL really really needs to make this information more accessible, and a hell of a lot more digestible, or people simply won't do it. And, again, that means residents who are ignorant and/or angry, or who are likely to actually walk away from the platform altogether.

So, yeah, be as disapproving as you want of those who can't afford, or won't take the time and effort to find out all the facts. Your contempt of them matters not in the least if the platform ends up suffering because no attempt was made to accommodate them.

Edited July 14, 2019 by Scylla Rhiadra

[ThorinII]

1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

The second is, if you want people to use your product, make it simple to access, and easy to use. If you're selling computers to the general public, don't provide instruction manuals that only someone with a computer science degree will understand.

And yet, Blender is pretty successful.

So what's wrong with something more complicated than some stupid video game? If the manual for <whatever> is too complicated for you (the general "you") to understand, then there's Google or other search engines that will lead you to forums and/or youtube tutorials about <whatever> helping you to understand it. You only have to show some interest and actively look for it. And I think that's something that can be expected nowadays. I think that no info about any product have to be spoon-fed to the prospective user at all. You don't understand the manual? Sorry, then the product isn't meant for you to use.

Anyway, I think Second Life in general is easy enough to access and to use, and has been forever.There's been NOTHING - from creating the account to doing anything inworld at all that has been really complicated. Not with Viewer v1.x, not with V2.x or any other version... Those who still think it's too complicated and has a too steep learning curve, are either too lazy to think, and too lazy to ask for help, or too willfully ignorant to go look for it - and  sorry (not sorry), but whenever one of them leaves, it's no big loss.

Edited July 14, 2019 by ThorinII

[Scylla Rhiadra]

10 minutes ago, ThorinII said:

And yet, Blender is pretty successful.

So what's wrong with something more complicated than some stupid video game? If the manual for <whatever> is too complicated for you (the general "you") to understand, then there's Google or other search engines that will lead you to forums and/or youtube tutorials about <whatever> helping you to understand it. You only have to show some interest and actively look for it. And I think that's something that can be expected nowadays. I think that no info about any product have to be spoon-fed to the prospective user at all. You don't understand the manual? Sorry, then the product isn't meant for you to use.

Anyway, I think Second Life in general is easy enough to access and to use, and has been forever.There's been NOTHING - from creating the account to doing anything inworld at all that has been really complicated. Not with Viewer v1.x, not with V2.x or any other version... Those who think it's too complicated and has a too steep learning curve - sorry, but whenever one of them leaves, it's no big loss.

Well, ok. Except that we're not talking about people leaving because the platform is too difficult to use. The issue is that, in essence, the paperwork -- in this case, the information about Tilia -- is too hard to find and understand. The people who are here complaining and threatening to leave aren't having problems with the software, they're being frustrated (or mislead) by the obstacles that have been put into their way to accessing the platform. Some of these people are probably superb at "using" the software: they may be really talented creators, or popular musicians or DJs. But they're being turned off because of something entirely incidental to the software itself.

And the real key here is that it doesn't need to be difficult. The Tilia stuff is easy to understand. As of yesterday, it won't even affect more than, say, 5%-10% of the resident population. The "difficulty" involved in communicating this really simple, easy-to-grasp information is entirely artificial and unnecessary.

There is absolutely no reason why the basic information that almost everyone needs to know -- and that would quell the outrage and the panic -- couldn't be condensed into a 100 word communication that is easy to find, quick to read, and simple to understand. Instead, we have hour long videos, or forum threads with 150 or more posts to wade through.

If we're losing people because they are finding SL too hard to use . . . well, that's one thing. As you say, maybe they shouldn't be here.

But losing them because LL can't get its act together and communicate basic but vital bureaucratic information to them is just plain stupid.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

33 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Well, ok. Except that we're not talking about people leaving because the platform is too difficult to use. The issue is that, in essence, the paperwork -- in this case, the information about Tilia -- is too hard to find and understand. The people who are here complaining and threatening to leave aren't having problems with the software, they're being frustrated (or mislead) by the obstacles that have been put into their way to accessing the platform. Some of these people are probably superb at "using" the software: they may be really talented creators, or popular musicians or DJs. But they're being turned off because of something entirely incidental to the software itself.

And the real key here is that it doesn't need to be difficult. The Tilia stuff is easy to understand. As of yesterday, it won't even affect more than, say, 5%-10% of the resident population. The "difficulty" involved in communicating this really simple, easy-to-grasp information is entirely artificial and unnecessary.

There is absolutely no reason why the basic information that almost everyone needs to know -- and that would quell the outrage and the panic -- couldn't be condensed into a 100 word communication that is easy to find, quick to read, and simple to understand. Instead, we have hour long videos, or forum threads with 150 or more posts to wade through.

If we're losing people because they are finding SL too hard to use . . . well, that's one thing. As you say, maybe they shouldn't be here.

But losing them because LL can't get its act together and communicate basic but vital bureaucratic information to them is just plain stupid.

Except it's not hard to find the info about Tilia.. It's on the dashboard.  

last item lists where to find the forum post about it and many other links with pertinent info.. Including a quick and easy to read FAQ. Which was posted on the 1st of July. So yes the info was there to begin with. Ranting about it rather than looking for the info is sheer laziness. 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

7 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Except it's not hard to find the info about Tilia.. It's on the dashboard.  

last item lists where to find the forum post about it and many other links with pertinent info.. Including a quick and easy to read FAQ. Which was posted on the 1st of July. So yes the info was there to begin with. Ranting about it rather than looking for the info is sheer laziness. 

Drake, you're so far from understanding my point that it's like we're engaged in two different conversations.

I'm going to say this one more time only in the hope that you understand. And if you don't, it doesn't much matter anyway.

Yes, maybe she and the myriad of other angry, confused, and upset people who've been responding to Tilia, are "lazy." Maybe they're also "stupid," or "incompetent," or "impatient," or any combination of derogatives that you want to hurl at them.

It doesn't matter what you think of them.

What does matter, and what LL should be (and probably is) worried about, even if you aren't, is that there is a really large and vocal body of SL residents, contributing members to this community and platform, who are deeply alienated from and angry with LL. And some of them may very well leave.

And that is what matters.

I'm glad, I suppose, that it makes you feel better to yell insults at them as they head out the door, but a smart company is going to do what it can to address their alienation, rather than take cold comfort, as concurrency drops and the SL economy suffers, from the fact that they are "lazy."

[Selene Gregoire]

As long as I have been in SL, even I am still learning about things I didn't know existed.

And yes, if LL hadn't backed off of forcing everyone to have a financial account they don't need or want and have to be legally responsible for, I would have left SL again. The next time I do leave, because LL can't seem to get their act together even after 15 years, will be permanent. Not that anyone cares if I come or go. That isn't the point. The point is LL is driving their own customers away by their cackhanded way of doing things.

[Luna Bliss]

10 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

a smart company is going to do what it can to address their alienation, rather than take cold comfort, as concurrency drops and the SL economy suffers, from the fact that they are "lazy."

So true -- for a corporation's success public perception can be more important than the facts.

[Fionalein]

12 hours ago, Talligurl said:

Oh darn, I was really hoping this would weed out a lot of the stupid people.

Sadly it didn't, they are still around. Legalese does not care wether a balance is positive, negative or balanced - that would be 0.00 - whatever it is - it still is a balance. If the terms of use are that everyone with a balance gets a Tilia accout without exceptions for 0.00 balances, the 0.00 balances will be affected. But of course that is only the reasoning of the "stupid people", right  ?

Be careful, Talligurl, be very carefull - one day the "studip people" like lawyers and judges might have a get on you because once again you will have assumed something that just was not layed down in the legalese at all.

There is a good reason lawyers and businessmen are so nit picking ...

Edited July 14, 2019 by Fionalein

[Selene Gregoire]

8 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

There is a good reason lawyers and businessmen are so nit picking ...

Yes but it would be better if they were honest and had some scruples while avoiding federal prosecution.

[Love Zhaoying]

16 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Yes but it would be better if they were honest and had some scruples while avoiding federal prosecution.

Then they would be scrupulous.

[Selene Gregoire]

3 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Then they would be scrupulous.

Which is better than scruple-less.

Edited July 14, 2019 by Selene Gregoire

[Love Zhaoying]

Just now, Selene Gregoire said:

Which is better than scruple-less.

Or even unscrupulous.

[Selene Gregoire]

2 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Or even unscrupulous.

Some scrupulous scrutators scrutinize scrutable scrutineers unscrupulously.

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Some scrupulous scrutators scrutinize scrutable scrutineers unscrupulously.

They screw ya, any way ya look at it.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

1 hour ago, Selene Gregoire said:

As long as I have been in SL, even I am still learning about things I didn't know existed.

And yes, if LL hadn't backed off of forcing everyone to have a financial account they don't need or want and have to be legally responsible for, I would have left SL again. The next time I do leave, because LL can't seem to get their act together even after 15 years, will be permanent. Not that anyone cares if I come or go. That isn't the point. The point is LL is driving their own customers away by their cackhanded way of doing things.

You will still have the account, even if you never use it..

[Fionalein]

1 minute ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

You will still have the account, even if you never use it..

but she would have never accepted the Tilia TOS even though she had an account... duh