I Will not accept Tilia

[Sammy Huntsman]

10 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Which is precisely what they should have done in the first place.

Probably three quarters of the residents of SL don't even known that there IS a forum here.

They already did that today, I even attached the video to my reply.

[DilliDallagio]

25 minutes ago, Tarina Sewell said:

respectfully, if you are not premium, o not pay tiers, or rent and have a 0 USD balance then are you really a contributing member of SL? Do you have 0 L balance to?

I realize this comment was not directed to me but it pushed a button so I will say my piece.

I am not a Premium Member. I believe that if the service does not officially support my computer platform (linux) with the SL branded viewer that is on par with the Windows platform, I will not get the same level of technical support from Linden Labs that Windows or macOS users get. Sure I can use a TPV but they do not allow one to upload mesh as they do not contain the Havok physics engine code due to licensing restrictions.

As a result of not being a Premium Member, I cannot purchase land to pay tier. Not an option.

Yes, I have rented from landowners in the past (not this current avatar account but previously).

I have a zero dollar balance as I have never intended to use Second Life as real life income. Perhaps some day in the future but as of right now, nope.

As a matter of fact, yes my L$ balance is now down to zero because I spent yesterday draining it out by tipping live music venues with the small balance I had in it. I did so because up until earlier today, it was stated that EVERY Second Life resident was going to have to accept the Tilia ToS, which was something I was seriously thinking of not doing. Now that such acceptance is not a concern for those not carrying a US$ balance... well... I guess I will have to start building my L$ balance back up by experiential means.

Now, as to your general premise that those who do not buy L$ with fiat currency are not contributing members... I believe you are WAY off the mark. I know many Basic Members, such as myself, who are very active in various groups. They provide customer assistance for those confused about mesh avatars. They help those who feel clueless about how their viewers work with valuable guidance and examples. I have seen Basic Members work as hosts, hostesses, greeters, and tour guides on various sims. Some have graced us with very artistic places built with care and detail strictly because they enjoy doing so. A few may have even touched our hearts and emotions with various other forms of art, including photography or machinima. So, are all those Basic Members not really contributing members?

Just something to think about.

Edited July 13, 2019 by DilliDallagio

[Selene Gregoire]

14 minutes ago, halebore Aeon said:

They already did that today, I even attached the video to my reply.

Today isn't in the first place. Today is several days late and many dollars short... meaning they should have done the Town Hall when they made the announcement.

Edited July 13, 2019 by Selene Gregoire

[Selene Gregoire]

11 minutes ago, DilliDallagio said:

Sure I can use a TPV but they do not allow one to upload mesh as they do not contain the Havok physics engine code due to licensing restrictions.

Not true. Most of the TPVS, if not all, have that feature.

[Sammy Huntsman]

Just now, Selene Gregoire said:

Today isn't in the first place. Today is several days late and many dollars short... meaning they should have done the Town Hall when they made the announcement.

They already did one, and this should be enough.

[Selene Gregoire]

4 minutes ago, halebore Aeon said:

They already did one, and this should be enough.

The last Town Hall didn't cover Tilia. They hadn't made the announcement yet.

Or else you are completely missing what is being said.

[Sammy Huntsman]

2 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

The last Town Hall didn't cover Tilia. They hadn't made the announcement yet.

Or else you are completely missing what is being said.

This one covered TIllia, like they answered questions, and explained it in a bit more detail. This is the one, that just happened today.

[Selene Gregoire]

25 minutes ago, halebore Aeon said:

This one covered TIllia, like they answered questions, and explained it in a bit more detail. This is the one, that just happened today.

I know that. I've known that since they announced the Town Hall this past Monday (it's Friday). That isn't what was being said. 

Go back and re-read what Scylla said and maybe you'll start to understand what "in the first place" means.

[Fionalein]

1 hour ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Today isn't in the first place. Today is several days late and many dollars short... meaning they should have done the Town Hall when they made the announcement.

The town hall can be later - giving people time to prepare is nothing wrong. But I agree they should have prepared a better press release when breaking the news.

[Selene Gregoire]

39 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

The town hall can be later - giving people time to prepare is nothing wrong. But I agree they should have prepared a better press release when breaking the news.

I probably should have been a little more specific. They needed to do more than just having a better press release. They needed to have the information ready to go when they made the announcement and they did not. Again. And they obviously didn't do some of the needed research into it either. 

Remember the surveys we used to get on log in once in a while? How long has it been since anyone has seen one? I haven't gotten one since I started logging in again back in September/October and we used to get them a few times a year... maybe once a quarter? I forget. Anyway. If they stopped doing them because not enough people were bothering with them, maybe instead of doing them every so often and asking the same questions over and over, only do them when they have something they are going to roll out for the grid to get feedback before ever making a "this is how it is and this is how it's going to be" announcement that turns out portions of either aren't good policy or legal.

At this point, almost anything would be better than what we've been getting. Almost anything. Almost. Horseshoes. Hand grenades. Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

[Drayke Newall]

8 hours ago, Selene Gregoire said:

From the official thread:

Q:
Will EVERYONE who uses Second Life have to agree to the new Tilia TOS and Privacy Policy - or just those who use credit processing in USD?

A: Only those who have a USD wallet need to consent to Tilia’s ToS. If you have a USD wallet, these will be presented to you when you log in to your SL account on the web.

Good to hear, though if this was what they said from day 1 of the announcement, 99% of all issue with the with Tilia integration wound have been non existent. It sounds like they rushed the announcement like usual without thinking ahead about what the backlash would be and it took hundreds of posts to change their minds. Hopefully they have learnt from this.

What am I saying, its Linden Lab... I give it half a year for it all to happen again. 

[Selene Gregoire]

5 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

Good to hear, though if this was what they said from day 1 of the announcement, 99% of all issue with the with Tilia integration wound have been non existent. It sounds like they rushed the announcement like usual without thinking ahead about what the backlash would be and it took hundreds of posts to change their minds. Hopefully they have learnt from this.

What am I saying, its Linden Lab... I give it half a year for it all to happen again. 

I give it about 3 months. They seem to be batting a thousand for quarterly.

[Drayke Newall]

6 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

uI give it about 3 months. They seem to be batting a thousand for quarterly.

Probably. I forgot about the premium group saga a few weeks ago.

Now all they need to do with this Tilia nonsense is confirm when these now named "Bank Accounts" will be created. If they are created automatically for every resident irrespectively of agreement to the TOS, of which I would assume to be illegal, then it opens up a whole new can of worms.

Unless I am interpreting Labs' responses and info incorrectly and there is no new account created and they mean just our SL accounts.

Edited July 13, 2019 by Drayke Newall
added something.

[Selene Gregoire]

29 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

Probably. I forgot about the premium group saga a few weeks ago.

Now all they need to do with this Tilia nonsense is confirm when these now named "Bank Accounts" will be created. If they are created automatically for every resident irrespectively of agreement to the TOS, of which I would assume to be illegal, then it opens up a whole new can of worms.

Unless I am interpreting Labs' responses and info incorrectly and there is no new account created and they mean just our SL accounts.

Basically, if you have never withdrawn, you shouldn't have a Tilia account so you shouldn't even see the popup on August 1st. 

I have to admit though, I'm wondering how many people have never looked and might actually have a small balance. The few times I've ever happened to notice the USD balance on my "profile" on the SL website it's always been $0.00 because I've never withdrawn or converted Ls to USD to pay premium. If you have done either you have an account already.

[Drayke Newall]

19 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Basically, if you have never withdrawn, you shouldn't have a Tilia account so you shouldn't even see the popup on August 1st. 

I have to admit though, I'm wondering how many people have never looked and might actually have a small balance. The few times I've ever happened to notice the USD balance on my "profile" on the SL website it's always been $0.00 because I've never withdrawn or converted Ls to USD to pay premium. If you have done either you have an account already.

I have withdrawn years ago, but didn't have any indication that a separate account had been created. So if this is the case and one was created without my permission, not only is it wrong but if it will mean me having a TOS popup for Tilia I wont be accepting now that it is being labeled a Bank Account. Already have enough of those in my own country. Certainly don't need one in the USA to complicate things.

[Selene Gregoire]

23 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

I have withdrawn years ago, but didn't have any indication that a separate account had been created. So if this is the case and one was created without my permission, not only is it wrong but if it will mean me having a TOS popup for Tilia I wont be accepting now that it is being labeled a Bank Account. Already have enough of those in my own country. Certainly don't need one in the USA to complicate things.

Easiest way to be sure is to log into the SL website and see what the USD balance is. If it's been long enough ago, prior to the creation of Tilia, you won't necessarily have an account. 

Maybe file a support ticket and ask? It wouldn't take them 5 minutes to look up the info.

Hopefully you won't be one of the ones that "falls through the cracks".

Edited July 13, 2019 by Selene Gregoire

[Scylla Rhiadra]

4 hours ago, halebore Aeon said:

This one covered TIllia, like they answered questions, and explained it in a bit more detail. This is the one, that just happened today.

 

3 hours ago, Selene Gregoire said:

I know that. I've known that since they announced the Town Hall this past Monday (it's Friday). That isn't what was being said. 

Go back and re-read what Scylla said and maybe you'll start to understand what "in the first place" means.

What Selene said.

LL announced Tilia, what, a week and a half ago? Since then, they have released information about it in dribs and drabs, including a 5 day period, at the height of people panicking, when there was no new information at all. Yes, that hiatus was because of the July 4 holiday, but the point is that LL should have had the answers to all of these questions available from the outset. Had they done so, and communicated them clearly, widely, and in Real People Speak, they would have saved everyone, including themselves, a lot of trouble and angst.

I think that the Town hall was a good thing: they need to reach out through as many channels as possible. And I applaud them for backing away on the requirement that everyone agree to the Tilia TOS: it's good to see them being responsive.

But the hard part is still to come: the vast majority of residents still have no idea of what Tilia even is, yet alone where to find information about it. I myself have been contacted by three residents i don't even know off-forum in the past week, asking me (of all people) for more information, because they couldn't find what they needed to know easily on the official Tilia thread. I'm sure I'm not alone in that.

The recording of the Town hall is great, but 1) very few people know that it exists, and 2) almost no one is going to sit through 35 excruciatingly boring minutes of video to get the answers they need to understand what Tilia is, and how it does or does not affect them. LL needs to produce a crystal clear, brief (well under 100 words), and unambiguous communication that goes out, at the very least, to everyone who has a credit processing history or a USD balance, about what is going to happen on 1 August. If they don't, the turmoil you've seen here will seem small stuff compared to the reaction on the grid as a whole.

[CheriColette]

2 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

..........

I applaud them for backing away on the requirement that everyone agree to the Tilia TOS: it's good to see them being responsive...........

I second this. A good outcome. It may not have start out well but those of us that read the forum frequently have been enlighten by the discussions and are well equipped to help others who are just hearing about Tilia.  

Its good that a big company, like Linden Lab, can (not exactly) (admit they made an error of judgement) re-evaluate a situation and change a policy they had thought to be 'cast in stone'. 

Thanks for listening LL 

[MissNomer Gothly]

7 hours ago, Tarina Sewell said:

respectfully, if you are not premium, o not pay tiers, or rent and have a 0 USD balance then are you really a contributing member of SL? Do you have 0 L balance to?

Respectfully, yes we're really contributing members of SL. Any other dumb questions?

[Drayke Newall]

7 hours ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Easiest way to be sure is to log into the SL website and see what the USD balance is. If it's been long enough ago, prior to the creation of Tilia, you won't necessarily have an account. 

Maybe file a support ticket and ask? It wouldn't take them 5 minutes to look up the info.

Hopefully you won't be one of the ones that "falls through the cracks".

Unfortunately, no such support ticket option exists for a general enquiry that I could find.

Though seems like the dashboard is broken at the moment as it states that the last time I "processed credit" was in 2013 which would be about right, but for some reason also lists the same transaction as being made in 2007 lol.

I assume 2013 is well before Tilia, as people have mentioned it being implemented 3 years ago. Hopefully this is the case and means I don't have an account.

[Theresa Tennyson]

9 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

Good to hear, though if this was what they said from day 1 of the announcement, 99% of all issue with the with Tilia integration wound have been non existent.

 

You sadly underestimate the ability of Second Life users to jump to unsupported conclusions.

[Drayke Newall]

13 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

You sadly underestimate the ability of Second Life users to jump to unsupported conclusions.

Perhaps, however if you make it clear what the intentions are from the start it would certainly alleviate most of the issues. As far as Lab announcements go, generally they are as clear as mud and always have been.

The problem with this whole announcement is that the official Tilia thread answers where written badly or in some cases not at all. There are still questions that are yet to be answered even though Lindens have been posting in the thread and have held a town hall. Whilst they may be oblivious to the questions (highly doubtful), you would think that they would have assigned a Linden to specifically answer ALL questions irrespective if they were repeats. A simple copy and past of "this has already been answered refer to the OP" would have sufficed. Instead they deleted the questions causing more confusion and angst. You would also have thought that they would have written all the questions in the forums down to address them in the Town Hall but apparently not.

Instead they confuse the situation entirely speaking of two accounts but only one account to login to and then change account in the town hall to bank account, further compounding the issues.

Considering the repeated questions that have still gone unanswered it is starting to look more of Linden Lab dancing around the main issues arrogantly rather than just an oversight.

Additionally, whoever wrote the official blog post should never have that duty assigned to them again. Looking over the blog again it contradicts the answers given in the official Q&A thread quite a lot and simply was baiting a PR nightmare for them.

Edited July 13, 2019 by Drayke Newall

[Alwin Alcott]

9 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

like usual without thinking ahead

if we do this on the forum we have a temp ban/suspension dumped on the head.. perhaps some have a red flag on their desks for a week now : no cookie for you for two days... but i'm affraid after 16 year not a lot changed

[Qie Niangao]

So it turns out the Lab shouldn't have communicated anything about any of it, at all -- least of all to the general SL population.

You want the truth? You can't handle the truth.

They'd have fared much better being much less transparent, only presenting USD wallet-bearers with an ultimatum when they login: Continuing to use this service constitutes agreement to the ToS of our shiny new subsidiary, Tilia. Here's the text. Get over it or get lost.

And 99.9% of the SL population would never need to pretty their troubled little heads over any of it.

[DilliDallagio]

I have no idea what the numbers would be but I am certain that 99.5% of the SL population STILL does not know what is going on. Just a wild and very unscientific guess based upon those I meet inworld.