New Gacha Policy Discussion

[Darius Wilberg]

I honestly don't see how this is some sort of an illegal thing that needs to be shut down.  Can you point out which states in the US have outlawed gumball machines ? I ask because that is basically what a gacha is. every time you spin that wheel you get a prize.

I found this to be a fun activity that allowed me to go to a gacha event and buy presents that I can give out to friends at a later date because they're transfer. 

[Lillith Hapmouche]

 

[Faly Breen]

1 minute ago, Crim Mip said:

Then they won't sell and/or other creators will make similar items to compete.

which will again cost something to create and it will again end up in a circle of copy/pasting so that every creator will end up creating something similar and we will end up with 1 avatar which has just a lot different creators and stuff like that. great, than i would rather buy a gacha item from one "good" creator where i know the item will at least end up in "good" quality.

 

as i said with my first comment here (

)

I think the rules should be way more specific.

[PatrickR Bleac]

7 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

No, that's not true. Russia has draconian speech and media laws, for example, but Russians in SL have not been liable to them and LL does not do Russia's enforcement for it. That's not how international law works.

Theoretically, a Japanese prosecutor could prosecutor a Japanese citizen for their gatchas within SL, but they have not done so to my knowledge, the amounts are too small.

German prosecutors have shown zeal for prosecuting their laws against child pornography in SL, but if they have a gatcha law/policy/thing, I haven't seen them do that. 

You can't look at law literally as a self-executing machine like Internet bans and content removal. It has to be adjudicated. For that, it needs a venue. International courts are not going to take gatcha law suits, they don't have the charter or the standing.

LL can afford to ignore Russian laws. The amount of customers they have in Russia is probably relatively small and what those customers spend relatively insignificant. The EU is one of the largest (and more importantly) richest collection of (potential) customers. LL can't afford to lose those.

I'm not sure if LL ever published demographics of SL users but in my personal experience it something like 40% Europe, 40% North America, 20% rest of the world. 

[Lewis Luminos]

1 hour ago, Roxy Bergiere said:

This is a terrible decision. 

It's not a decision made by Linden Lab, except the decision being that they don't want the company to be shut down altogether. The alternative is to pay a 10 million Euro fine and more fines weekly if they don't comply. There is no way Second Life would survive at all. 

So the choices are:

1) No gachas

2) No Second Life.

[Deathly Fright]

1 minute ago, Darius Wilberg said:

I honestly don't see how this is some sort of an illegal thing that needs to be shut down.  Can you point out which states in the US have outlawed gumball machines ? I ask because that is basically what a gacha is. every time you spin that wheel you get a prize.

I found this to be a fun activity that allowed me to go to a gacha event and buy presents that I can give out to friends at a later date because they're transfer. 

There are places that aren't the US. SL would be a very worse place if it was US only.

[Experimental Scientist]

1 hour ago, Prokofy Neva said:

I'm happy to say I was wrong about LL's ability to become skittish in "climate change" as distinct from law, but I will point out that gloating about this now means taking glee in real harm to creators, many of whom make a living in SL. When the gambling law induced an end to chance gambling, only partially mitigated by "games of skill", and the policy to end banks and stock markets and such went down, some people including war veterans and people in impoverished third-world countries lost their livelihoods. I can't be happy about that even though I want LL to abide by the law and enforce its TOS, it's better for the economy ultimately.

 

Do you also feel sad whenever a nigerian prince scammer gets caught? If someone makes their livelihood through scams, I don't give a f what their background is.

[Crim Mip]

3 hours ago, Krow Ames said:

Lots of opinions here.

The reality is, this change is unneeded unless your local grocery store is also going to get rid of their quarter machines in the front. It is exactly the same concept. Like it or not, gacha is huge. You are made aware before you ever spend money that you only have a chance to get one of the items. The only people that agree with this change are the ones that want items from gachas, but don't want to play the game.

Content creators should absolutely make money for their hard work. They were taking a chance as well. The super cool rare item that's probably worth 500 or more? They're risking that you'll get it for a single 25L roll and be on your way. This change does nothing but limit people. It adds nothing and removes a choice. Let people be free and make their own choices on where to spend their money.

There are actually states in the US that ban those quarter machines as gambling devices.

[ItHadToComeToThis]

Super. No issue with this. Gacha are a pain in the a**. Prevent developers from ripping people off.

[Kitteh Whiskers]

4 hours ago, Linden Lab said:

For details about our new policy change regarding gacha, read our blog post. 

For further questions, please join the conversation in this post. 

 

***UPDATE: Due to the sheer volume of responses, it will be difficult for us to attempt to answer all questions in this thread in a systematic way, so we will put put together an FAQ and update the main blog post with it shortly.

There's so many people that make a living off of creating/selling gachas. I'm deeply saddened by these news but try to understand it. I hope those that depend on gachas, won't be greatly affected although I doubt it. 

As a customer, I depended on them too. I depend on basically getting a nice item for less, for me or to resell,  no matter my luck.  I know I  won't be buying any fatpacks simply because I can't. $10+ for a fatpack is too much (for me) 

I don't think LL realized how many jobs they just ruined. Ya know?

[Frankie Antonioni]

My store has 7 gacha machines. I make very little from those. I make most of my money from the sell of drugs. I do have a random prize machine called Magic Bottle. You pay 10L$, and you get a random prize. Will it affect those?

What about vending machines? I have one that sells vehicles. Another one sells t shirts. Will those be affected? Will LL come after drugs next? Where does this end?

[Prokofy Neva]

12 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

Still LL has to collect the EU's VAT as long as they offer their service in the EU.
So I guess they have to comply with all kinds of other international rules as well to keep SL open for an international public.

Collecting VAT is something they do as merchants, as a business.

They are not prosecutors, however, with international standing, and cannot prosecute another country's laws on their behalf.

What they can do is make a policy about anything they like, for any reason or no reason, as a private company. So they have. Most likely because Elizabeth Warren's protégé among the new owners of LL cast his eye on this, for a variety of political and cultural reasons.

Many people have ideas about how laws are executed internationally that are utterly ignorant of how such things work. Laws are not electronic machines that self-execute. You need a prosecutor, a judge, a court with standing, etc.

Example: as we see Canada passed an anti-gatcha law in *2010*. Canadians went on pulling levers in SL for 11 years afterward. Nothing changed in Canada. There isn't some judge eyeing SL as far as we know. Possibly Japanese regulators did? But I'm willing to bet there was no actual RL prosecutor contacting SL, it was just produce on their part. They have not cited their legal thinking on this, merely alluding vaguely to a "regulatory climate" which in fact does not yet exist in the SL, absent a law *and its application*. Remember, the US is common law, i.e. law is interpreted by a judge and past rulings form the basis for future prosecution.

[Faly Breen]

1 minute ago, Katt Dragoone said:

 I hope those that depend on gachas, won't be greatly affected although I doubt it.

Yu-gi-ho card creators: thanks. my family will die.

[Prokofy Neva]

2 minutes ago, Crim Mip said:

There are actually states in the US that ban those quarter machines as gambling devices.

Quarter machine gambling devices, illegal in NYS but seen in many a bodega still, are not the same, as in SL you do get something for the quarter you put into the machine, just not the rare necessarily.

[LipstickAndDreams]

16 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Wait !! 

I've got the solution !!

Break llFrand() to always return 0 !!

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LlFrand

Hypothetically random numbers could still be generated by using llGenerateKey(), converting the first hex value to an integer, and normalizing it to whatever max value needed for the gacha machine. And if all methods of RNG are broken, people could still use bots.

Edited August 2, 2021 by LipstickAndDreams

[LittleMe Jewell]

6 minutes ago, Darius Wilberg said:

I honestly don't see how this is some sort of an illegal thing that needs to be shut down.  Can you point out which states in the US have outlawed gumball machines ? I ask because that is basically what a gacha is. every time you spin that wheel you get a prize.

Your opinion of what a Gacha is doesn't matter.  What matters is how they are interpreted by the legal statutes of various countries - not just the US even.

 

[Stephy Silvercloud]

1 hour ago, Deathly Fright said:

I haven't read the whole thread but my only question is what happens to gatchas that are inworld and the makers have gone and the store is a zombie?

 

Also, I feel sad that a lot of the stuff that was in gatcha will probably just go away.

 

57 minutes ago, Deathly Fright said:

Anybody have an answer to my question?

Are you referring to stores where the creators are rarely on to monitor their store or no longer creating new items? The answer to that is simple. If they have gachas out, they will have to be picked up. It's their responsibility to keep up with the current TOS and abide by them.  

Why do the items have to go away?  It's ultimately up to the creators whether they want to continue to sell it in the allowed way, or retire the items.  Some stores have already started to set them out. This is what I would expect most stores to start doing, if they want to continue making money off the items.  However, if they choose to retire them, then we'll live.  Stores retire older items all the time.  Many stores also offer Limited Time offers and Exclusive Event items as well, that are gone after the time period or event is done. You know the old saying, nothing lasts forever.

[Prokofy Neva]

4 minutes ago, Experimental Scientist said:

Do you also feel sad whenever a nigerian prince scammer gets caught? If someone makes their livelihood through scams, I don't give a f what their background is.

I fail to see how a merchant in SL -- mainly female, mainly not rich in RL but usually low income, often minorities -- is engaged in a "scam". You get something you pay for -- a couch for $50 instead of $150. You don't get the rare fireplace, but then you can buy that on the MP. And still can. And I hope merchants will now make $100 formerly rare gatcha fireplaces that we used to sometimes get for $50 -- AND PUT THEM ON TRANSFER.

[Crim Mip]

3 hours ago, Chouji Cookie said:

Guessing breedables will be next since getting the traits and such are a gamble each time. Breedables are just as addictive if not moreso than gachas IMO.

Except when you buy a breedable, you know what you're getting. Breeding itself doesn't cost anything and is totally voluntary on the part of the owner so not the same thing at all.

[LittleMe Jewell]

4 minutes ago, Frankie Antonioni said:

I do have a random prize machine called Magic Bottle. You pay 10L$, and you get a random prize. Will it affect those?

Yes - they will not be legal as of Sept 1.

 

5 minutes ago, Frankie Antonioni said:

What about vending machines? I have one that sells vehicles. Another one sells t shirts. Will those be affected?

Assuming the vending machine is showing the customer EXACTLY what they will get for their money, then they will still be allowed.

[Drakkhis]

1 minute ago, Crim Mip said:

Except when you buy a breedable, you know what you're getting. Breeding itself doesn't cost anything and is totally voluntary on the part of the owner so not the same thing at all.

Technically when you buy a breedable like a cat you don't know what traits it will have so it is a gamble.

[Prokofy Neva]

7 minutes ago, PatrickR Bleac said:

LL can afford to ignore Russian laws. The amount of customers they have in Russia is probably relatively small and what those customers spend relatively insignificant. The EU is one of the largest (and more importantly) richest collection of (potential) customers. LL can't afford to lose those.

I'm not sure if LL ever published demographics of SL users but in my personal experience it something like 40% Europe, 40% North America, 20% rest of the world. 

There are actually a lot of Russian residents and some quite good designers, some of the most famous at the best merchant events. They may not advertise their country of origin.

The EU does not have some blanket law against gatcha machines or loot boxes such that you can point to this as a reason for LL's decision (which they can make absent a law, of course). You can point to laws in Canada not enforced in SL for 11 years? A Belgian law that people aren't sure applies? Etc. 

I can't state it enough: LL is not an international prosecutor in the Hague. It cannot prosecute other countries' laws merely because they have players from those countries. And you can't even show an actual case of a German prosecutor, for example, or a Japanese prosecutor -- where there really is a well-defined law -- that has *reached into SL and gone after a Japanese resident in a Japanese court of law*. Do cite such a case, I'll wait.

I can't waste any more time trying to convey to people who law works at home and abroad, something I myself know as a human rights activist for many decades, although not a lawyer. Happy to see LL's lawyer or new owner who worked at the Department of Justice in the past speak up on their interpretation of the law which informed this decision. Everything else is conjecture.

[Kyrah Abattoir]

52 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

This is a US based company with no offices any more in Asia or Europe. A German law cannot be enforced on US soil.

At the end of the day, the United States of America is not an island isolated from the rest of world.

[belladonna Wexhome]

11 minutes ago, Darius Wilberg said:

I honestly don't see how this is some sort of an illegal thing that needs to be shut down.  Can you point out which states in the US have outlawed gumball machines ? I ask because that is basically what a gacha is. every time you spin that wheel you get a prize.

I found this to be a fun activity that allowed me to go to a gacha event and buy presents that I can give out to friends at a later date because they're transfer. 

wanting a couch and getting a rug is not the same thing. 

[Deathly Fright]

3 minutes ago, Stephy Silvercloud said:

 

Are you referring to stores where the creators are rarely on to monitor their store or no longer creating new items? The answer to that is simple. If they have gachas out, they will have to be picked up. It's their responsibility to keep up with the current TOS and abide by them.  

Why do the items have to go away?  It's ultimately up to the creators whether they want to continue to sell it in the allowed way, or retire the items.  Some stores have already started to set them out. This is what I would expect most stores to start doing, if they want to continue making money off the items.  However, if they choose to retire them, then we'll live.  Stores retire older items all the time.  Many stores also offer Limited Time offers and Exclusive Event items as well, that are gone after the time period or event is done. You know the old saying, nothing lasts forever.

yea I know. I really don't like gatchas and didn't really do them, but the $50L items on the marketplace was cool