New Gacha Policy Discussion

[Dorientje Woller]

Just now, ZenCho Balhaus said:

Well I for one enjoyed playing gachas, end of the day its a personal choice as to if you played or not,  and yes I sell my extras on MP, but not at the exorbitant prices of some folk..I think LL have their hands tied on this matter. I feel sorry for all the places like Arcade and Epiphany who tailored their events round Gachas

Maybe they can ask if Gachas will be allowed on those special for gambling created sims/lands ? And hold their events there.

[Faly Breen]

@Patch Linden

Being honest here, i can understand that gachas should be closed IF they work with a "rarety system" in their mind. Their are tones of creators, mostly clothes, which make 5 versions of X dress and ONE version has maybe a droprate of 5% if even.

Such should be stoped and i can legit understand that.

But what i dont like is that people which create "bubblegum" gachas where the chances are literally equal are also now putted on the black list.

As sample, Lets say i create collecting- and trading cards (you know, something like pokemon-, magic- or yu-gi-oh cards). Those things are sold for maybe 5-20L$ for a card. The machine is literally a bubblegum automat where you put in some L$ and get one random card out of x cards. So you know:

- You will get a card

- the chances are equal to each card (so NO rarety system)

- Which card you get is random

 

By this new rules, it would mean such cardgames simply cant exist in sl anymore since the system behind such bubblegum automats is literally the randomness behind the "TRADING" and "COLLECTING" part - i mean think about booster packs you buy for your card game, you know you will get a set number of cards but the cards are always random - and they literally HAVE TO BE else the system makes no sense at all.

So to be fair here, i think the rules for such are kinda very losely by literally banning everything which is luck based.

Look at old games like 7Seas, as one good sample, it "basicly" is a gacha than as well since you dont even know if you get a fish or not - and it has a rarety system as well. Same would actually be Blind/black box sales and things like breedables which can also basicly count as gachas shince they are also somewhat based on a "random base" there.

With that said, i think the rules should differ some things and should be more "specific", IF thats even possible:

- Gachas with rarety systems (aka different droprates or similar) should be forbitten.

- Gachas which have more than 1 different kind of item inside (aka if its not just pants but also panties, hats, jeans, etc in one gacha) should be forbitten.

 

- Gachas which offers 1 item in JUST different variations should still be ok since the costumer will still end up with the item he sees.

- Gachas where the droprates are equal with every "draw" the costumer takes should still be ok since all the chances are still equal and there is no rarety behind the system.

 

So again, i dont disagree that gachas should be gone but i think that the rules might need more specification so that such things like tradingcards or simple similar things doesnt have to close their business doors forever.

 

Edited August 3, 2021 by Faly Breen

[Kricket Calamity]

How is gacha any different from someone buying a pack of Pokemon cards. You know what you could get but don't know what's in the pack you've picked and you have the chance of getting rare cards or not getting any rare. 

Almost all of the money I cash out is from people playing my gachas. This is what I earn my living from. I spend weeks and months, often having 12-16 hour days meshing, resizing and rigging to 5+ bodies, texturing, taking photos, boxing everything up and if I make it a gacha instead of a normal release I get 6x the linden and people can sell, gift or trade their doubles. Also customers are only paying 50L for items that would have been like 200L if they where sold separately and they win an item every time they play. You can even create your own business selling the gachas you win. People who don't like gachas didn't have to play it or could just buy it from marketplace.

Saying all of this we are still grossly underpaid for the amount of work we do. I'm doing 60+ hour weeks for less than half of minimal wage. But at least gachas give us some more money for what we do.

First you upped the amount of money is taken when we cash out and now this. If banning gachas was a decision you guys chose and not one implemented by different governments, please consider everyone's feedback and what I've put here, we're a huge community and it's important that we support the creators who have made it what it is.

[Rathgrith027]

Just now, Prokofy Neva said:

There isn't a law, though. Note the post says "regulatory climate" which is not a law.

It is already illegal in the Netherlands and Belgium, as well as having extensive regulation in Japan.

https://screenrant.com/lootbox-gambling-microtransactions-illegal-japan-china-belgium-netherlands/

[Adeon Writer]

Just now, Faly Breen said:

But what i dont like is that people which create "bubblegum" gachas were the chances are literally equal are also now putted on the black list.

 

Because it's too easy to make a loophole. If you say it's ok to have random colors as long as they are all equal chance, what stops you from making 30 different colors: 1 pink, and 29 different unique shades of brown? No rares, right?

[Prokofy Neva]

10 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

 

You assume much that isn't in my post. 

I was referring to creators I know that have known this was likely to happen for years yet they did nothing to prepare for it. No one else. They didn't listen. They know who they are and I don't need to say anything. So I haven't and I won't. I'm not cruel like that, much to your chagrin.

There isn't any actual data to point to, to say "this is likely to happen". There still isn't a law in the US, for example. I think a lot of people especially in civil-law countries in Europe don't realize how law works in the common-law US, where you need the ruling of a judge and the body of decisions built up over time to really speak of a true "regulatory climate".

I couldn't blame any creator with skill for not making a gatcha machine, given all the difficulties they face in this controlled economy with high costs for business. They can't be blamed for not preparing, either, they have to do what makes sense today.

Also think about how breedables are also likely to fall under this axe. I can't see how it won't. It's true that when I buy a pair of mutts, I see what I get, but I'm buying them possibly for the rare gem they may produce down the line, which I can re-sell.

Will land on the auctions fall under this axe? No, because you can see what you are getting. So people with a yen for gambling and money to spend will crowd the LL auctions to buy land they can flip now. Good for LL's bottom line.

[Shannon Nohkan]

Been in SL for many, many years. Never saw the point of Gacha so never used it. So, certainly won't miss it.

[DeeJay Peapod]

5 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

There isn't a law, though. Note the post says "regulatory climate" which is not a law.

Petition No 0373/2019 by I.O. (German) on the need to put the content of ‘gacha’ games on the same legal level as those known as ‘loot boxes’ in mobile apps

check google

[OkamiTenshi]

This is going to be a long post. I know this probably isn't going to add anything new to the discussion but, personally, I like this decision. I feel that Gachas are or at least have become predatory, with all of the good or desirable items only being given at a small percent. If gachas had only items of equal value no rares, I wouldn't be against them. In that case it really would be like a "gumball machine," as some have put it. But that's usually not the case, so the gumball analogy doesn't work. Same with grab bags because, in general, all items are of equal or similar value.

I've also seen some say that it's not gambling because you always win a prize. I can't really argue for or against whether or not that's true by definition, but if you put money in with the hope of getting a desired item and almost always end up with an item of lesser worth or is undesired, I would consider that losing. You've lost Linden for an item you don't want. I personally hate when an outfit I really want is only achievable by a small percentage amongst several accessories of varying colors, and I have to try over and over for it while instead repeatedly getting accessories I already have or in colors I don't want. It's frustrating to me and I don't like that creators are leaning into that mechanic to gain a profit. I feel it's taking advantage of peoples' desire for the rare item. I appreciate that they sell fatpacks of the items, however, even though I usually can't afford them. My favorite stores and creators have been doing this as well, and I've bitten the bullet and sank a lot of L$ into their gachas because I love their products. But luck-based selling gimmicks are unfair. There is the option to resell these prizes but when the common items are undesirable, they don't sell well. I admit I did like the idea of being able to trade the items too.

Some have said that, casinos, claw machines and other carnival games with chance-based prizes should also be banned IRL if gachas are to be banned as well; I think they're trying to use that as an argument against the ban, but I actually agree with that idea too. They're also predatory and I'd be happy if they were done away with.

They're especially predatory to those who are prone to addiction and/or are addicted to gambling. Even just the thrill of hoping to get a desired outcome or prize is a defining factor of such an addiction.

That being said, my heart genuinely goes out to creators who are going to be badly impacted by this; I especially feel awful for gacha events such as The Epiphany or The Arcade. However if a creator has made a business solely of gachas with tiny percent chances to get the only desirable product, they should be cracked down on. I truly hope that they are all able to find a way to work around this and change the way they sell these items. A machine with a queue as to what item is next seems like it would be better to me, though that depends on LL. I want to support creators wholeheartedly by purchasing clothes and items sold normally, not by gachas.

TL;DR: I support this decision because gachas are at their core a gambling mechanic which tends to be harmful and predatory especially to those with addictive personalities, but I feel deeply for the people who will be negatively impacted by this in terms of profit and income.

[Kimmi Zehetbauer]

1 minute ago, Adeon Writer said:

Because it's too easy to make a loophole. If you say it's ok to have random colors as long as they are all equal chance, what stops you from making 30 different colors: 1 pink, and 29 different unique shades of brown? No rares, right?

Why they need to be banned. Should've been done long ago and also should've been a 30 day thing here. Give like 3 days and boom-gone!

[Prokofy Neva]

Just now, DeeJay Peapod said:

Petition No 0373/2019 by I.O. (German) on the need to put the content of ‘gacha’ games on the same legal level as those known as ‘loot boxes’ in mobile apps

check google

2 minutes ago, Rathgrith027 said:

It is already illegal in the Netherlands and Belgium, as well as having extensive regulation in Japan.

https://screenrant.com/lootbox-gambling-microtransactions-illegal-japan-china-belgium-netherlands/

This is a US based company with no offices any more in Asia or Europe. A German law cannot be enforced on US soil.

[Alan Cyr]

8 minutes ago, Caprisin said:

Wrong, did you just pick to read parts of what I said .. i mean I thank you for catching my mistake with the might get thing, but you totally missed the point.

"Gachas are indeed just a quarter machine as we call them mostly here in the states anymore. You get a toy (or in this cause a item) and it could be something of value at one point like any collectable. (which the figures we used to get in the 90s being moved to blind bags now and costing way more)" 

I had my insert on the machine just like the gachas in world has a picture of what you might get. It was a always a chance of my quarter crank if I was going to get a figure I haven't gotten yet or a dupe .. However unlike sl I had no one to give them to or trade with cause I was the only kid into these things. 

Now said figures like I said have been put into blind bags instead of the quarter machines 
 

 

As I understand it, from a strictly legal point of view, there is no difference here. If you can't guarantee you know what you're getting for your money, then that's seen as gambling.

Taking your example, that might be seen as being a bit stupid. And I wouldn’t disagree. But what we have here is a situation where legislators have come up with what could be easily argued as an over-big stick to clamp down on the problems caused by rare items being necessary to progress in a game

(or to complete a collection, or be the only thing worth having).

LL however must run its business inside the regulatory climate as it sees it. That’s just the way that is.

[Faly Breen]

6 minutes ago, Adeon Writer said:

Because it's too easy to make a loophole. If you say it's ok to have random colors as long as they are all equal chance, what stops you from making 30 different colors: 1 pink, and 29 different unique shades of brown? No rares, right?

what you said is basicly "creating a own rarety sytem". again, think about trading cards like pokemon or yu-gi-ho. If you buy a booster of those you will always have a set number of cards in it and also a set number of commons and uncommons (and so on). you will always know "basicly" what you will get since the chances are equal.

 

what you basicly said is if i make a cardgame where i make one super strong powerful card and 99 other cards which i literally "super similar" but just sh*t. thats literally creating a own rarety system which should of course also forbitten.

Edited August 2, 2021 by Faly Breen

[Charlotte Bartlett]

33 minutes ago, Vanity Fair said:

I also have bought a fatpack of all the gacha items when it is available. The message I want to send content creators is that I would rather pay more for one individual item I want, rather than endlessly (and sometimes fruitlessly) play a gacha machine.

On a related note, I *did* finally go drop some Lindens at few of the gachas at my friend's gallery, and I am quite happy with the results! 🙂

 

I nearly fell out of my chair - is  Cosmo Wenman presenting his scanned NEFERTITI bust on SL? There is such a cool story about how there was a 3 year fight with the museum over usage rights.    He now makes it available so anybody can download so maybe it's a third party version.   If you want to read about it - > https://reason.com/2019/11/13/a-german-museum-tried-to-hide-this-stunning-3d-scan-of-an-iconic-egyptian-artifact-today-you-can-see-it-for-the-first-time/

Do you have his creator name?  I would love to take a look if he put his other items up from his SketchFab store just in case - I remember following this as it was a huge deal for 3d scans of items and getting them out to the public to use! ❤️

Edited August 2, 2021 by Charlotte Bartlett
typo

[Rathgrith027]

Just now, Prokofy Neva said:

There isn't any actual data to point to, to say "this is likely to happen". There still isn't a law in the US, for example. I think a lot of people especially in civil-law countries in Europe don't realize how law works in the common-law US, where you need the ruling of a judge and the body of decisions built up over time to really speak of a true "regulatory climate".

I couldn't blame any creator with skill for not making a gatcha machine, given all the difficulties they face in this controlled economy with high costs for business. They can't be blamed for not preparing, either, they have to do what makes sense today.

Also think about how breedables are also likely to fall under this axe. I can't see how it won't. It's true that when I buy a pair of mutts, I see what I get, but I'm buying them possibly for the rare gem they may produce down the line, which I can re-sell.

Will land on the auctions fall under this axe? No, because you can see what you are getting. So people with a yen for gambling and money to spend will crowd the LL auctions to buy land they can flip now. Good for LL's bottom line.

 

1 minute ago, Prokofy Neva said:

This is a US based company with no offices any more in Asia or Europe. A German law cannot be enforced on US soil.

That doesn't stop these authorities from banning users from accessing Second Life and or punishing those who do engage in Gacha-related activities. Also, just because your company doesn't have a physical presence in a country doesn't mean that you can't be sued or charged for engaging in criminal activity in that territory and punished in some fashion (as mentioned prior) for violating them.

[Prokofy Neva]

2 minutes ago, DeeJay Peapod said:

Petition No 0373/2019 by I.O. (German) on the need to put the content of ‘gacha’ games on the same legal level as those known as ‘loot boxes’ in mobile apps

check google

I've been Googling ever since the hysteria on this subject began by those who reside outside the US, sometimes in countries with actual laws on gatcha, some not. LL is based in the US and subject only to US law.

[Dorientje Woller]

Just now, Prokofy Neva said:

This is a US based company with no offices any more in Asia or Europe. A German law cannot be enforced on US soil.

Mind you something different: in order to be on the European or whatever market other then the US, Linden Lab has to comply to the laws of that market. So, if the EU considers Gacha as illegal gambling, then Linden Lab has 2 options: either they remove the gachas or they, Linden Labs, removes themselves from that market and if they don't do either of the both options, they risk to be blocked from that market. That is the simple and pure reality of doing international businesses.

[Caprisin]

6 minutes ago, Alan Cyr said:

 

As I understand it, from a strictly legal point of view, there is no difference here. If you can't guarantee you know what you're getting for your money, then that's seen as gambling.

Taking your example, that might be seen as being a bit stupid. And I wouldn’t disagree. But what we have here is a situation where legislators have come up with what could be easily argued as an over-big stick to clamp down on the problems caused by rare items being necessary to progress in a game

(or to complete a collection, or be the only thing worth having).

LL however must run its business inside the regulatory climate as it sees it. That’s just the way that is.
 

 

THING IS you don't need any of the items to progress anywhere in sl CAUSE THERE is no real progression thats the point of the whole toy machine thing. BUYING things from gachas in sl just that .. We don't gain no advantage over anyone, we are not locked behind a pay wall or anything like in actual video games... AND IF THEY want to crack down so hard on this then like I said they need to take out everything related.

 

Edited August 2, 2021 by Caprisin

[Alan Cyr]

8 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

There isn't any actual data to point to, to say "this is likely to happen". There still isn't a law in the US, for example. I think a lot of people especially in civil-law countries in Europe don't realize how law works in the common-law US, where you need the ruling of a judge and the body of decisions built up over time to really speak of a true "regulatory climate".

I couldn't blame any creator with skill for not making a gatcha machine, given all the difficulties they face in this controlled economy with high costs for business. They can't be blamed for not preparing, either, they have to do what makes sense today.

Also think about how breedables are also likely to fall under this axe. I can't see how it won't. It's true that when I buy a pair of mutts, I see what I get, but I'm buying them possibly for the rare gem they may produce down the line, which I can re-sell.

Will land on the auctions fall under this axe? No, because you can see what you are getting. So people with a yen for gambling and money to spend will crowd the LL auctions to buy land they can flip now. Good for LL's bottom line.

What about this as posted above? https://www.abc.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Law-Enforcement-Advisory-Illegal-Gambling-Devices-1.pdf

[Shuichi Shinji]

Not sure if this has been asked already... if so, it could be interesting for the FAQ maybe ^^

1) Is it still allowed to give out random items as a result of payment if their chances and approximate vaules are the same? I guess not, since it's hard to verify.

2) Is it allowed to sell gacha or random item giver scripts, as long as they offer a method of using them "legally", e.g. without payment, but also offering soon-to-be "illegal" options, or do the latter options have to be removed from the scripts? I already made my Raffle script conforming a while ago, and I guess I need to change other scripts as well now...

3) As long as you see exactly what you get when you pay, e.g. on a Lucky Chair that requires payment, I assume that is ok, even tho some luck is involved with your letter being drawn?

[DeeJay Peapod]

6 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

This is a US based company with no offices any more in Asia or Europe. A German law cannot be enforced on US soil.

No but it is accessible within those places as well which means its still under the jurisdictional law as well as the LL owned servers maintained in those places

[Kathlen Onyx]

The gacha people will still profit and gacha addicts will still buy. The only difference is that for rare items you will be paying an huge amount up front.  The new name will be "collectibles".

Edited August 2, 2021 by Sam1 Bellisserian

[Faly Breen]

1 minute ago, DeeJay Peapod said:

No but it is accessible within those places as well which means its still under the jurisdictional law as well as the LL owned servers maintained in those places

imagen you going to jail there only coz you sold some pokemon booster packs...

[DeeJay Peapod]

2 minutes ago, Faly Breen said:

imagen you going to jail there only coz you sold some pokemon booster packs...

i mean i think its stupid as hell....doesnt make it any less the law

[ConnieG Sorbet]

1 hour ago, Omegaslayer said:

I'm really glad they are doing this, i rarely play gachas and i am not addicted to them in the slightest. But they are just gambling and a crack down needs to happen, some people put hundreds into second life playing for worthless pixels. Because at the end of the day that's all they are, pixels.

I love Gacha... I play machines to get great awesome looking items at a brilliant price.. I often click them knowing anything i get in it fits a theme.. ie when I in wild west..  *Af* the cabin ... and when it was christmas I'd go see what stag from Jinx I could get for 75 lindens...  and I'll give it away for xmas etc if I get a duplicate... I'm not a gambler thanks very much.. I'm a money saver!