New Gacha Policy Discussion

[Adeon Writer]

2 minutes ago, Crim Mip said:

They are in some states believe it or not.

And in some, like Arizona, which outlaws gambling entirely, still has claw machines, because no money payout = not gambling.

[Kyrah Abattoir]

5 minutes ago, Faly Breen said:

i duno if you know avatars like the ones from Nutbusterz which creates super cute gacha avatars and are heavily animated, have a working battle system, have handdrawn/created textures and use full functional AOs ever saw (not making avertising here but im making a point here) but...i guess you never saw them.

An exception doesn't change the general trend. This is the kind of product that will do just fine when sold normally.

[Crim Mip]

3 hours ago, Torric Rodas said:

How about a hover text:  Current Prize is:   "whatever"  .. up to the user if they pay 50L for what is shown.

They may have to play umpteen times until the prize they want comes up..  but you could never say it was random, since the resident would know exactly what they were purchasing each time they pay the machine.

As long as the random roll was done before the sale, that would probably be ok, but we both know a lot of the 'common' items in current gachas are absolute crap. While people might be willing to get crap if there had been a chance of getting something good, if they know for sure they will get crap, they might be less inclined to pay.

[Scum Pond]

21 minutes ago, LipstickAndDreams said:

Hypothetically random numbers could still be generated by using llGenerateKey(), converting the first hex value to an integer, and normalizing it to whatever max value needed for the gacha machine. And if all methods of RNG are broken, people could still use bots.

or you know just use llListRandomize

 

regardless, f*** gatchas

Edited August 2, 2021 by Scum Pond

[Drakkhis]

1 minute ago, Frankie Antonioni said:

So, I see that a lot of people on here don't like gachas. I have never played a gacha machine. I say to each their own. I do have them in my store, but I make very little from them. All items on them were made by Feelgood Trip, and his ex wife. I could sell them on the MP, and Caspervend, and I might make more money. But everything is set for transfer, no copy. So I may have to change the perms. But I still don't know where LL is saying changes in  legislation. What  legislation? I don't know of any new rules for prize machines.

It looks like Second Life is just like real life. Too many busy bodies.

For me its not that i dont like or do Like gatchas, I just see this as a gateway to start to regulate everything and take away everything that has chance in it like raffles, or lotteries.

[Da5id Weatherwax]

Ok, lets break this down to rawest principles...

1: $L are directly convertible to and from $US and so to a regulator they are "real money" assets, in spite of any "in-game token" language. Anything you pay for with $L will be viewed as a "real money transaction" by those regulators and their enforcement arms.

2: loot boxes, ie random rewards for a fixed payment in-game, which can be purchased with "real money" are being regulated and/or banned at a swift clip around the world in many jurisdictions including several US states. These jurisdictions almost uniformly class such things as "gambling" and draw their regulation and enforcement authority from the laws that exist almost everywhere to control gambling. Loot boxes for real money are regarded as equivalent to slot machines.

3: Gatcha machines are loot-box vendors in which the chances of a particular item and the relative value of the items it is possible to get are completely outside LL's control.

4: Whether such a definition as in #2 above is right or not is irrelevant. It either is, or is becoming, the legal lens through which such things are viewed almost everywhere. As such, LL MUST become compliant with those laws and regulations. Since they CANNOT regulate Gatcha machines to the extent required for their existence to be compliant, due to their lack of control over their configuration, they are gone. Period.

5: Merchants who "make more money from Gatchas than I ever would selling the individual items" are not victims here. They are the "poster children" for the predatory nature of a gambling-based sales model, setting the reward odds to "favor the house" every time. If selling the individual items as known items for a price commensurate to their actual value leads to lower profits, that difference in profit level is entirely due to the odds favoring the house in the gambling element. As such rather than protesting they should be allowed to continue fleecing their marks it would be better to zip it, quietly fold their tents and go looking for the next bunko game that hasn't been caught yet. Any Carnie knows how that part works.

[Crim Mip]

3 hours ago, DeeJay Peapod said:

Breedables will now be banned as they violate this policy as well XD

They don't. You know what you're getting when you buy one.

[Yvhuce]

"We will continue to allow any sales where a payment is given for a known item, which means that items that had been purchased as “gacha” will be allowed to be re-sold as long as the buyer knows in advance the item and quantity they will receive. We will, of course, still allow fatpacks, and any other currently-allowed distribution mechanisms."

So, basically, the randomization part has to be removed. I'd assume that the gacha machines won't go away altogether, but that they would need to be retooled so that instead of sending you a random gacha, you're choosing a specific one for X Ls. Perhaps a new model would be that gacha makers may make the various "higher rarity" types a little more expensive to compensate for lack of random chance? I personally wouldn't mind a little markup vs base gacha if I could choose what ones I'd be getting. And it would certainly help avoid the MP flooding of all those random ones that no one seems to want. Long post short: The randomizers need to be changed to be similar to regular product vendors. This would cut down on instances of one person playing a gacha and spending all of their Ls and never getting the "common" one they want.

Similarly, selling/buying Gachas in the MP would be business as normal, except that people can't sell "gacha chances", which are just like playing a gacha machine. Most of us selling/buying are doing so because we spent a lot of Ls and never got (or just finally got) the one we wanted, so have a bloated inventory of extras. So long as there's a picture indicating what the Gacha item is, to show the customer what they're buying, then all is good on that front.

[Faly Breen]

1 minute ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

An exception doesn't change the general trend. This is the kind of product that will do just fine when sold normally.

HAH!

yea, the avatars will end up in less variations and will be heavyly overpriced - or do you really think if you can "choose the product you want" you get the same quallity as before from an item which is suppost to be LUCK BASED? No srsly, think about that for a moment.

[Yuki Suki]

3 hours ago, PippaScott said:

what ARE we allowed to do? low cost, high traffic gacha vendors made things accessible that maybe a lot cant afford at 2 or 3 k each

 

Many people cant afford luxurious watches and jewelries. Many thieves and criminals sell affordable stolen items. Does this mean everyone should start buying stolen items from their friendly local criminals now?

[Nextio]

Do Powder Packs and other loot boxes fall under these rules?  From what I remember, powder packs contain random skins.

[mistecho]

Will this policy effect "mystery" item such as a grab bag or a stash box where the buyer doesn't know what will be in the box until after said box is purchased?

[Faly Breen]

1 minute ago, Crim Mip said:

They don't. You know what you're getting when you buy one.

ah ah ah

but you dont know what you will get when you breed them. see.

[powerofvoid]

Other folks have described this before in this thread, but I figure it's worth describing it in more detail: (look for "conveyor belt")

It looks like you're still allowed to have vendors like this:

Method A (simpler):

1. SELECTION: The vendor selects its next item through some process (likely randomized)
2. DISPLAY: The vendor displays the item it is offering
3. A customer touches the vendor, and tells the vendor they would like to buy the item shown
4. The vendor locks itself to only that customer
5. The vendor sends a confirmation to the customer, indicating which item they will receive if they pay the vendor
6. The vendor becomes open for payment to the customer
7. PAYMENT: The customer pays the vendor
8. The customer receives the item displayed
9. The vendor closes itself to payment
10. The vendor waits a few seconds for people to be able to react
11. The vendor unlocks itself from that customer
12. The vendor selects the next item
13. Return to the beginning

Method B (Encourages repeated purchases)

1. SELECTION: The vendor selects its next item through some process (likely randomized)
2. DISPLAY: The vendor displays the item it is offering
3. A customer touches the vendor, and tells the vendor they would like to buy the item shown
4. The vendor locks itself to only that customer
5. The vendor sends a confirmation to the customer, indicating which item they will receive if they pay the vendor
6. The vendor becomes open for payment to the customer
7. PAYMENT: The customer pays the vendor
8. The customer receives the item displayed
9. The vendor closes itself to payment
10. The vendor waits a few seconds for people to be able to react
11. The vendor selects the next item
12. The vendor displays its next item
13. The vendor becomes open for payment to the previous customer
14. If the customer pays the vendor, go back to "PAYMENT"
15. TIMEOUT: If the customer does not pay within the allowed time (30 seconds?), proceed:
16. The vendor closes itself to payment
17. The vendor waits a few seconds for people to be able to react
18. The vendor unlocks itself from the customer
19. Return to the beginning, possibly without selecting a new item

Method C (sim traffic generation)

1. SELECTION: The vendor selects its next item through some process (likely randomized)
2. DISPLAY: The vendor displays the item it is offering
3. The vendor becomes open for payment
4. PAYMENT: A customer pays the vendor
5. The customer receives the displayed item
6. return to DISPLAY, unless enough time has passed
7. TIMEOUT: When enough time has passed (perhaps five minutes?), proceed:
8. The vendor closes itself to payment
9. The vendor waits a few seconds for people to be able to react
10. Return to the beginning

Things to watch out for:

1. All items should be clearly and usefully labeled (name, description, perms, polycount, VRAM usage, land impact, etc.)
2. Different items should all have [i]different[/i] names and labels
3. There two-step lock-in process in Method A and Method B is important, because it keeps another avatar from "ninja-ing" and causing the item to change before the customer receives the item. (it's not needed on the third, because a purchase does not change what the next customer will receive)

The products sold can still have any permissions the merchant chooses (e.g.: nc/M/T), so, assuming all three of these machines are allowed, I expect the overall long-term impact of the gacha ban to be minor.

There will still be tradeable no-copy items whose [i]availability[/i] is essentially random, you'll just know what you're paying for before you actually pay for it.

Many of these tradeable no-copy items will still come in different rarities.

The main benefit of this policy will be that Second Life isn't shut down because of legal action, and the main downside will be that gacha merchants need to buy new machines to comply with the new policy.

Edited August 2, 2021 by powerofvoid
WYSIWYG text editors suck

[JasminaDayspring]

Dumbest choice ever! Not only are you taking away OUR right to do what we want with OUR Lindens but you are also taking away a large chunk of finances from countless SL businesses. Are you going to help those businesses when they lose that large sum of money because you decided to follow the RL idiocy to control what people do with their money? SL use to be a bastion of give no f**ks, bucking RL idiocy and let people do what they want within the rules given to us by LL.  Has anyone remembered we can sell our unwanted gachas on the MP or gatcha sales or gift them or swap with other people? This was NOT a very well thought out "choice". There will ALWAYS be forms of gambling no matter what you do. You can't stop it. Stop following RL and do your own thing, like you've always been good at SecondLife. Or your going to keep hemorrhage players. 

Edited August 2, 2021 by JasminaDayspring
added information

[Kyle Beckett]

Gacha's are not going anywhere.

Even now behind the scenes, people are already working on a solution. It's not that hard to just show people the item they will receive if they pull on the machine. Problem solved. No more random chance.

You can see what you are paying for just like a vendor. The next item changes after each purchase and they can choose to buy it or walk away and let someone else buy it. The only downside is the machine can only be used by one person at a time. Better than nothing at all.

[Coffee Pancake]

1 minute ago, mistecho said:

Will this policy effect "mystery" item such as a grab bag or a stash box where the buyer doesn't know what will be in the box until after said box is purchased?

Yes!

Money in, random items out .. banned. 

[Annie Nova]

2 hours ago, Finite said:

Would it be possible for gacha to be available on skill gaming sims since no devil resembles gambling far more so than most gachas in SL do. At least with gacha you are receiving an item of value regardless of if it is the item you desire. Who's to say that item isn't worth the 50, 75 or 100L you spent? Seems odd that one is allowed while the other isn't. No Devil is not a game of skill and is in fact a game of chance since you can play as skilled as possible and still not make the threshold of "winning". It still requires chance to actually win no matter the skill.

Oh sure, yeah go ahead and put them in a gaming REGION that only allows people from certain states to gain entrance. I don't play gachas but can see the outcry from people not allowed on the REGION, how is this right and fair? 

[Coffee Pancake]

1 minute ago, Kyle Beckett said:

The only downside is the machine can only be used by one person at a time. Better than nothing at all.

Good luck on a busy region with massively delayed script events. 

That's a recipe for people to spend L$, get nothing in return and lose their money in the process. 

[Nextio]

2 minutes ago, JasminaDayspring said:

Dumbest choice ever! Not only are you taking away OUR right to do what we want with OUR Lindens but you are also taking away a large chunk of finances from countless SL businesses. Are you going to help those businesses when they lose that large sum of money because you decided to follow the RL idiocy to control what people do with their money? SL use to be a bastion of give no *****s, bucking RL idiocy and let people do what they want within the rules given to us by LL. This was NOT a very well thought out "choice". There will ALWAYS be forms of gambling no matter what you do. You can't stop it. Stop following RL and do your own thing, like you've always been good at SecondLife. Or your going to keep hemorrhaging players. 

It's out of their control.  Certain US states and certain countries do not allow online gambling.  Linden Lab could be sued and fined for breaking the law.

[Kathlen Onyx]

18 minutes ago, belladonna Wexhome said:

SECOND. LIFE. WAS. NOT. MEANT. FOR. PEOPLE. TO. MAKE. A. LIVING. ON.  

 

that's what people do NOT get.  The fact that LL lets people cash OUT of LL is the Luxury.   

UM that's wrong.

[Nextio]

3 minutes ago, Kyle Beckett said:

Gacha's are not going anywhere.

Even now behind the scenes, people are already working on a solution. It's not that hard to just show people the item they will receive if they pull on the machine. Problem solved. No more random chance.

You can see what you are paying for just like a vendor. The next item changes after each purchase and they can choose to buy it or walk away and let someone else buy it. The only downside is the machine can only be used by one person at a time. Better than nothing at all.

This is probably the best solution currently.  They would essentially work like Lucky Chairs.

[Yuki Suki]

1 minute ago, JasminaDayspring said:

Not only are you taking away OUR right to do what we want with OUR Lindens

I believe your did have the right to agree/ disagree to abide by the TOS of LL when you sign up your account.

[Kyle Beckett]

1 minute ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Good luck on a busy region with massively delayed script events. 

That's a recipe for people to spend L$, get nothing in return and lose their money in the process. 

That already happens, lol. But yeah obviously there would be some limitations.

[sch511]

About time this happened. I know too many people who were basically addicted to gachas, or who 'lost' huge amounts when SL crashed (followed in nearly all cases by LL doing jack ***** to help).

The only time I ever paid for a gacha was on the MP, at less than the pay price.