New Gacha Policy Discussion

[Prokofy Neva]

14 minutes ago, Lewis Luminos said:

Not exactly, but Germany can ban its citizens from accessing SL at all.  The UK would be next.

Nope. Wouldn't be the resident content creators going to jail. It would be Patch, and whoever is the next CEO.

My guess is that the initial sale of starter pets will have to change, so they are either free, or have known traits. 

Offspring are not entirely random; they inherit traits from their parents. If you mix up your pairings and study the offspring over time, you can work out the hidden traits. So I don't think the breeding process would need to change (unless there are breedables which truly are random offspring and don't have any kind of inheritance mechanism - those might have to change, but that does not apply to KittyCats or Amarettos).  What will definitely have to stop is the random bundle barrels, where you pay to get a random baby bundle.

No, that's not what this is about. Germany is not going to ban SL residents; for that it would have to ban all of SL and it is not likely to do that, like it won't ban all of Twitter. Russia does things like that, not EU states.

Here is the relevant biography of one of the new owners of LL that explains this in more relevant terms, and political terms; this is a protogee of Elizabeth Warren. There is a thread on this guy elsewhere you can find. It's probably his pet cause, and LL should state explicitly what they mean by "regulatory climate" when there isn't a US law and they can't enforce other countries' law. And the answer is: it's about a Better World.

https://www.lindenlab.com/about

RAJ DATE

 

Raj Date was the first-ever Deputy Director of the U.S. Consumer Financial Protection Bureau (CFPB). As the Bureau’s second-ranking official, he helped steward the CFPB’s strategy, its operations, and its policy agenda. He also served on the senior staff committee of the Financial Stability Oversight Council, and as a statutory deputy to the FDIC Board.

Before being appointed Deputy Director, Raj acted as the interim leader of the new agency, serving as the Special Advisor to the Secretary of the Treasury. He led the CFPB for most of the first six months after its launch.

Currently, Raj is the Managing Partner of Fenway Summer, an advisory and investment firm focused on financial services and financial technology. In that capacity, he chairs the investment committee of Fenway Summer Ventures, a fintech venture capital fund, and works with clients of FS Vector, the fintech advisory firm. He also serves as a Director for a number of innovative firms in financial services: Prosper, the marketplace lender; Green Dot, the bank holding company; Circle, the digital asset firm; Grasshopper, a de novo bank; and College Ave, a private student lender.

He is a graduate of the College of Engineering at the University of California at Berkeley (highest honors) and the Harvard Law School (magna ***** laude).

 

 

[Janet Voxel]

Guess I better run over to Epiphany and spent up my points.

Can't say I'm sorry to see them go. This was a long time coming and they got out of control a long time ago. They were cute when it was like 6 random knick-knacks and the rare was the whole fatpack. When the rare became the item in black or white and not even the fatpack, it became just a predatory money grab. 

Not going to miss it really. Good move LL!

[Claireschen Hesten]

Slightly disappointed to see gacha outlawed. in RL gacha machines are aimed at children as they have toys and other cheap tat in them. However have wasted my fair share on gacha before only to get everything including supposed rares multiple times but not the only thing I was playing the gacha for so never really tried them much since

[Crim Mip]

8 minutes ago, Faly Breen said:

ah ah ah

but you dont know what you will get when you breed them. see.

 

Breeding them doesn't cost anything. No rule break there.

[LittleMe Jewell]

8 minutes ago, Faly Breen said:

ah ah ah

but you dont know what you will get when you breed them. see.

It's not the breeding that is the issue, since breeding is not actually required and many folks really do just buy them as pets.

It is the randomness of the starters that are in question.

[Adeon Writer]

7 minutes ago, Da5id Weatherwax said:

It either is, or is becoming, the legal lens through which such things are viewed almost everywhere.

Specifically, a new German law defines "gachas" and "lootboxes" in it's own terms, understands the subtle distinction between the two, and nevertheless forbids both. It knows exactly what it's banning. That's why Linden Lab has no choice here; there is no room for interpretation: They aren't allowed, specifically.

[Scum Pond]

5 minutes ago, Kyle Beckett said:

Gacha's are not going anywhere.

Even now behind the scenes, people are already working on a solution. It's not that hard to just show people the item they will receive if they pull on the machine. Problem solved. No more random chance.

You can see what you are paying for just like a vendor. The next item changes after each purchase and they can choose to buy it or walk away and let someone else buy it. The only downside is the machine can only be used by one person at a time. Better than nothing at all.

What would make a creator, other then the way they are perceived, care about user lockout? Snipers would create traffic.

 

F***, bot neo-gatcha snipers could be a thing.. In fact I'll bbl I need to do some scripting lol

[Toothless Draegonne]

6 minutes ago, Faly Breen said:

HAH!

yea, the avatars will end up in less variations and will be heavyly overpriced - or do you really think if you can "choose the product you want" you get the same quallity as before from an item which is suppost to be LUCK BASED? No srsly, think about that for a moment.

Yes. You absolutely will be getting the same quality from the exact same items. And what's more, the people selling their items will be doing so without supporting an army of voucher touts that do literally nothing but take money out of the hands of the people that made the items.

Next question?

[Prokofy Neva]

14 hours ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

At the end of the day, the United States of America is not an island isolated from the rest of world.

At the end of the day, LL is a private company, not the ICC or any other international court or prosecuting agency of any kind. And it does things for political, not legal reasons, as there is no law, and other countries -- again -- having a law does not put some burden of policy on them at all because there are no landmark impact-type cases even.

 Canada {California] had a law (see above) since 2010 [and Canada also has had gambling laws now being used in class action suits), yet Trompe has happily made and sold gatchas for 11 years. It's not how real life works.

Edited August 3, 2021 by Prokofy Neva

[Faly Breen]

Just now, Crim Mip said:

 

Breeding them doesn't cost anything. No rule break there.

hold it.

A lot breedables need actually "Food" items so that they are stable/albe to breed. So, technically, you DO pay for that.

[Terra Claremont]

So, my two cents:

Gachas are, and have always been, a method of creating revenue for the creator. Nothing else. It uses the lure of one or a handful of very 'special' items to get customers to give them money for a chance on getting an item they want. I have always felt gachas are annoying. You go to a sales event, and you see an item you really want, then you look closer, and realize it's a gacha. I don't want acid green panties, or a dog bowl with smiley faces on it in 15 different colors of smiley faces. I want to buy the item I want without having to pay for an astronomically low chance of getting the item I really want.

There have been so many times I have come across an item and just fell in love with it, to the point that I was willing to pay the price for it, even if was expensive, only to see the gacha machine and let out a sigh, and walk away. So, when you look at it that way, you are losing many other definite sales, with zero chance of having an unhappy customer. I was told by one of the biggest sellers of homes in SL, "Your customers are your store. If they are happy, you're happy. Without them, you just have a building with a bunch of stuff in it." Paraphrasing Paigeypoo.

As I said previously, they are a method of revenue for many people from all sides of the equation. I truly do hate that so many people will be taking such a hard blow financially. You can't beat a dead horse to make it run faster, though. The decision has already been made, and there is a better chance of getting the ultra-rare fatpack in a single pull, than changing the decision LL has made. I truly do hope that they will listen to the outcry of so many creators here, and extend the deadline.

I do hope creators find a way to recover the lost revenue, and I really do hope that the creativity that went into some of those gacha items will not be wiped away. I can't say that I will be sad to see the gacha craze disappear, though. 

I do also wonder if the 'no copy' element may have played into the decision? Imagine just dropping several thousand L$ to get that one item you wanted, then you rez it in just the wrong spot. Gone. No refunds, no replacements, nothing for the money you just spent for the incredibly small chance to get the item that just vanished without a trace.

Anyways, that's my two cents.

 

[Amber DeCuir]

Gambling involves the risk of losing your money completely. Gatchas show the items you might receive and you always receive an item. I don’t see how this makes them deserve banning!

[mori OwO]

honestly thank god for this. i'm sick of rezzing a piece of gacha furniture only for it to be eaten by the void and lost forever. there really should have been a system in place for this. i hope that gacha-exclusive creators can figure out ways to sell their products that aren't in 5kL fatpacks, because there are a lot of really amazing items that are gacha exclusive. i would personally pay more for a copy/notransfer version of all the gacha items i currently own, particularly furniture.

gacha is a predatory tactic that i don't think should have been allowed to thrive as well as it did in second life, so i'm glad to see it gone.

[Crim Mip]

Just now, Faly Breen said:

hold it.

A lot breedables need actually "Food" items so that they are stable/albe to breed. So, technically, you DO pay for that.

You pay for the food and know you're getting food. At no point are you directly paying for a random item. Breeding a breedable in and of itself doesn't cost anything.

[Faly Breen]

6 minutes ago, Toothless Draegonne said:

Yes. You absolutely will be getting the same quality from the exact same items. And what's more, the people selling their items will be doing so without supporting an army of voucher touts that do literally nothing but take money out of the hands of the people that made the items.

Next question?

im sorry to tell you but i think this thinking is very very naive.

As i said, think about card games in real life.

A booster pack is maybe 12-20 bucks and you get some random cards but if you go and wanna buy a "specific card" guess how much you have to pay for. If its a rare card, you can guess how much already.

Edited August 2, 2021 by Faly Breen

[Deathly Fright]

2 minutes ago, Terra Claremont said:

So, my two cents:

Gachas are, and have always been, a method of creating revenue for the creator. Nothing else. It uses the lure of one or a handful of very 'special' items to get customers to give them money for a chance on getting an item they want. I have always felt gachas are annoying. You go to a sales event, and you see an item you really want, then you look closer, and realize it's a gacha. I don't want acid green panties, or a dog bowl with smiley faces on it in 15 different colors of smiley faces. I want to buy the item I want without having to pay for an astronomically low chance of getting the item I really want.

There have been so many times I have come across an item and just fell in love with it, to the point that I was willing to pay the price for it, even if was expensive, only to see the gacha machine and let out a sigh, and walk away. So, when you look at it that way, you are losing many other definite sales, with zero chance of having an unhappy customer. I was told by one of the biggest sellers of homes in SL, "Your customers are your store. If they are happy, you're happy. Without them, you just have a building with a bunch of stuff in it." Paraphrasing Paigeypoo.

As I said previously, they are a method of revenue for many people from all sides of the equation. I truly do hate that so many people will be taking such a hard blow financially. You can't beat a dead horse to make it run faster, though. The decision has already been made, and there is a better chance of getting the ultra-rare fatpack in a single pull, than changing the decision LL has made. I truly do hope that they will listen to the outcry of so many creators here, and extend the deadline.

I do hope creators find a way to recover the lost revenue, and I really do hope that the creativity that went into some of those gacha items will not be wiped away. I can't say that I will be sad to see the gacha craze disappear, though. 

I do also wonder if the 'no copy' element may have played into the decision? Imagine just dropping several thousand L$ to get that one item you wanted, then you rez it in just the wrong spot. Gone. No refunds, no replacements, nothing for the money you just spent for the incredibly small chance to get the item that just vanished without a trace.

Anyways, that's my two cents.

 

very well said

[Triskall Claremont]

4 minutes ago, Yvhuce said:

So, basically, the randomization part has to be removed. I'd assume that the gacha machines won't go away altogether, but that they would need to be retooled so that instead of sending you a random gacha, you're choosing a specific one for X Ls. Perhaps a new model would be that gacha makers may make the various "higher rarity" types a little more expensive to compensate for lack of random chance?

Um... but that's exactly like any OTHER sales method no?
For example, someone goes to Fameshed to purchase a (hypothetical) living room from Aria (for example)
You get the table for x, the chair for X+10, and the couch for X+100. Or the full pack for X+1000.

So if you pay more for rarity, you'd pay more for the bigger item with more anims, or pay even more for the "fat pack", which ends up being... kinda the same thing, just less complicated?

Really... human nature no? Why simplify if they can complicate? XD

Most people just prefer to pay (supposedly) 1000 for a (hypothetical) bed, that was once a rare gacha item and now is being sold as a copy-mod item, over paying 1000 for 10 items they do NOT want and will clog inventory, or be resold on MP or that gacha sim, and never get the damn bed in first place.

It's all very simple and very logical. You get to pay a fair price for that copy mod thing you actually want, over paying a lot for the CHANCE to get that, but going home with lots of things you don't even LIKE.

Maybe it's just me, but I like simple, basic, steady things. I like to see the item and buy. Pay a bit more, but I get to go home with what I want and some change in my pocket, instead of going home with arms full of stuff I don't need and completely broke XD

[LittleMe Jewell]

11 minutes ago, Annie Nova said:

Oh sure, yeah go ahead and put them in a gaming REGION that only allows people from certain states to gain entrance. I don't play gachas but can see the outcry from people not allowed on the REGION, how is this right and fair? 

No way it would happen anyway.  There is no way to classify the current Gacha machines as "skill gaming" in any way.

[Lewis Luminos]

25 minutes ago, Frankie Antonioni said:

My store has 7 gacha machines. I make very little from those. I make most of my money from the sell of drugs. I do have a random prize machine called Magic Bottle. You pay 10L$, and you get a random prize. Will it affect those?

Yes. It's paying money and getting something random. That is the very definition of a gacha.

25 minutes ago, Frankie Antonioni said:

What about vending machines? I have one that sells vehicles. Another one sells t shirts. Will those be affected? Will LL come after drugs next? Where does this end?

If your vending machines need to be paid, and they give out a random vehicle or a random t-shirt, yes.

If it's free-to-play, its not a gacha. If it gives out an exactly known item, it's not a gacha. 

As for drugs: They will have to go after drugs, if at any time the US or EU or any other major country decides to make it illegal to depict drugs online. That's the reason why a*g*e*play is illegal in SL; because there are some countries in which it's illegal even if it's an illustration, a drawing, or a computer-generated image. 

These are not decisions that are being made up by Linden Lab. They are being enforced by law.

[Stephy Silvercloud]

2 minutes ago, Faly Breen said:

hold it.

A lot breedables need actually "Food" items so that they are stable/albe to breed. So, technically, you DO pay for that.

You are paying to feed the animal and keep it alive and healthy.

[Toothless Draegonne]

Just now, Faly Breen said:

im sorry to tell you but i think this thinking is very very naive.

As i said, think about card games in real life.

A booster pack is maybe 12-20 bucks and you get some random cards but if you go and wanna by a "specific card" guess how much you have to pay for. If its a rare card, you can guess how much already.

Yes I've seen trading card games that literally prey on children.

Happy to see that gone from here. What started as a few gumball machines turned into a massive problem, and now it's not. Shame it had to end this way but, well, it wasn't going to end any other way, was it?

[Faly Breen]

1 minute ago, Crim Mip said:

You pay for the food and know you're getting food. At no point are you directly paying for a random item. Breeding a breedable in and of itself doesn't cost anything.

again:

The breedable NEEDS the food to be ABLE to breed (aka "getting in the mood", they will die without it or similar, a lot breedables have that). So yes, technically you do pay for it to be ABLE to breed coz else a breedable might die or cant breed at all.

[DevinKnights84]

I don't understand why so many people are getting so butt hurt over this gacha thing. All creators need to do is remove gacha machines and sell no copy /transferable items the same way they do copyable items but at a lower cost. ya know, like Teegle already does with the Teeglepets and who knows how many other creators of no copy furniture, vehicles, etc. that are not gachas. Many people dislike gachas because of never getting the items they want and rarely buy from them but would love the items they offer in them, so creators stand a bigger chance of selling their stuff if it's not in a gacha. boom, everyone's happy.

[LittleMe Jewell]

14 minutes ago, JasminaDayspring said:

OUR right to do what we want with OUR Lindens

Yeah, think again.  From section 3 of the SL TOS:

[Da5id Weatherwax]

1 minute ago, Amber DeCuir said:

Gambling involves the risk of losing your money completely. Gatchas show the items you might receive and you always receive an item. I don’t see how this makes them deserve banning!

Your definition is too narrow. It's a game where you can lose by getting an item of "lower than average value" or win by getting a "rare or popular item of higher than average value" and the odds are stacked to favor the house. You dont have to lose ALL your money to have been gambling. I can sit down with you at a moderate stakes card table and (assuming we're playing one of the games I'm better at than you, of which I'm sure there's one) take HALF your table buy-in off you, then cash out and leave. You havent lost all your buy-in, but you've still lost, right?