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2 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

 

What is it that makes some people feel it's okay to dominate others, people who get a kick out of shoving others down so they can feel like they have a leg up?   People who believe it's okay for some to be in a group at the bottom and even actively make sure they're somehow below them. People who believe in a kind of Social Darwinism.  People who are now the Republican party in the US.

As an outside observer of americans national sport of politics, I say there is more of that on the Democrats side.

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This graphic, which I saw over the road at VVO, distinguishes between the political and the non-political quite well, I think  

Why it can feel hard to talk about racial inequality, and why you should do it anyway.... So, anyway, as i mentioned in a couple of other threads, the company I work for gave us a paid day off in

Racism is defined as: prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior. You can't change the definition to

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1 hour ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

I'm a little surprised @Linden Lab hasn't put this dumpster fire out yet.

I am actually glad they haven't.  I have learned so much from this thread.  Even though I might not agree with everyone, I certainly am getting lots out of it.  I can admit that as a white Canadian I am aware of racism, however, I didn't really realize how deep it really goes.  And this thread has really helped give me a different perspective on it.  I have never been a victim of racism so I can't really even comment on it or even begin to know how it feels to have it said to you or done to you.   It seems to me that everyone can agree racism is wrong, it is how we stop and change it that is dividing everyone. 

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19 minutes ago, CaithLynnSayes said:

i should have grown wheels instead of legs so i would not need a car... should should should is not relevant, it never is. That is what i have been trying to say for hours now. Something in your brain is programmed to block that and frankly i've tried and i'm now giving up. Peace out.

We've all benefitted, and continue to benefit today, from systemic racism. It's why we in 1st world countries have the wealth we do, while the countries we've colonized are poor and often culturally destroyed.  We made our money off their backs or off the land we stole from them, and instituted laws and privileges for ourselves to keep the injustice in place.  This continues today, as our society works hard to keep them at the bottom, poorer levels.  Some of this abuse is conscious, while others not so much. 

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39 minutes ago, Chaser Zaks said:

He does that when making fun of people, he has done that before that interview.

The hand movements Trump uses are not those of able bodied people, but rather of people with deformities or spastic muscle conditions. I challenge you to find video of uncompromised human bodies making the sort of motions Trump uses in a context other than mockery. It doesn't matter if the person being mocked has any such disability, or any disability at all. Trump is using the body motions of disabled people to mock others. By pointing out that he does this often, you have painted him with an even broader brush of foul paint than the one episode that made the news.

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12 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

As an outside observer of americans national sport of politics

You don’t say?

Are any of you chuds who are so eager to tell Americans what to do actually Americans?

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14 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:
15 minutes ago, Lyssa Greymoon said:

You don’t say?

Are any of you chuds who are so eager to tell Americans what to do actually Americans?

Racism has neither national nor political boundaries.

Good God Arielle, we already went over this.  One country is not the same as every other country. What Blacks went through here is not exactly the same as what other POC went through in other countries.  You have to study each country extensively to grasp how situations are different or similar for POC in any particular country.

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18 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Good God Arielle, we already went over this.  One country is not the same as every other country. What Blacks went through here is not exactly the same as what other POC went through in other countries.  You have to study each country extensively to grasp how situations are different or similar for POC in any particular country.

Seriously Luna, where do you come up with some of this stuff? Just because I don't contest every utterance that comes from you, does not mean I agree with each. In my decades of participating and facilitating 1000's of various recovery groups, I have never heard anyone share that the pain of being rejected for their color or race was any different depending on their geographical location. In fact, it is because the pain of rejection in general is very much the same for any type of predjudice and discrimination that allows others to empathize with those who feel rejected because they are not the dominant color or race of the area they are in.

The pain of American prejudice is simply no different then the pain of the prejudice in any other country. The crux of the issue is the pain, not the geographical location.

 

 

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14 hours ago, CaithLynnSayes said:

I am mixed race, so you lost the chance to call me racist for what i'm about to say.

...

All this hoopla started with George Floyd obviously, so what happened? The most reasonable thing in the world, right? Lets attack police, white people AND black police and call them uncle Tom's, right? That's very civilized, isn't it and not at all racist. Nobody attacked anyone here based on what their skin tone is, right? You are fighting fire with fire, how do you expect a solution to that?

...

BLM advocates, i fully understand your issues and frustrations, and i stand with you in finding a solution, but you are going at it the wrong way, you are doing the exact same thing you accuse your opponent from

...

Stop being a victim culture, almost a victim cult even. You have no idea how much better you have it in 2020 compared to 200 years ago. Also fun fact, the white people that did oppress black people 200 years ago are no longer alive! So why blame the current generation that bends over backwards by the way, to make things as equal as possible for everyone.

Caith, is lots going on in your post. Picking up on the parts I have quoted

fighting fire with fire is something americans do. (american in this context meaning those of the USA). Americans as a body are revolutionaries. Not in the sense of collective revolution as found elsewhere. In the sense of individualistic revolutionary exceptionalism

about 3 months ago, approx. 70% of USA people didn't think that there was structural racism in the USA, because of the US Constitution and various anti-discrimination laws

since the death of George Floyd approx. 70% of US people today think that there is structural racism in the USA in one form or another. Why this sudden reversal? Mostly because the Black Lives Matter movement's existence, encouraged lots of other ordinary people to tell the every day stories of their lives

many people have read these stories and have checked for themselves the validity or otherwise of the claims in the stories. And on checking have discovered that what has been related is largely true. While also discovering that some claims are not true - hyerbolicly untrue in some fewer cases. The preponderance however is that the claims are largely true

this also fits the revolutionary exceptionalism mindset. Changing your mind quickly and acting on it, is a component of revolutionary exceptionalism

and on this basis a significant number of US people have changed their minds in a matter of weeks. This now majority of people when hearing the phrase Black Lives Matter understand this to mean that black lives matter as much as other lives matter. They don't perceive the phrase to mean black lives matter more than all other lives. They see past the hyperbolics, labeling, denunciations, rants and name calling of the maddening crowd, and see the ordinary people whose lives are actually affected negatively by structural racism

 

next. Why do some people of color resist movements like Black Lives Matter? Similarly why do some women resist movements like Me Too?

i think that it is mostly because these people do not see themselves as a victim, nor do they want others to see them as a victim either. These people see themselves as highly capable individuals able to forge a path for themselves. And that structural obstacles are able to be overcome by those who are capable.  This is the narrative of individualistic revolutionary exceptionalism - to be the best that we can and overcome any obstacles that may confront us

to be the best that we can is not a bad thing. Is a good thing. What is bad is when being individually exceptional leads us to believe that obstacles, like structural racism, structural sexism, etc  aren't so impossibly difficult to overcome on an individual basis. We being, or believing ourselves to be, a capable person overcome these obstacles in our own lives and we don't see, or in some cases don't accept or even understand why others cannot also

that we may overcome them ourselves doesn't mean tho that the structural obstacles are not there. They are, and today a majority of ordinary everyday people in the USA, who's awareness of these obstacles was raised by the Black Lives Matter movement, want these structural obstacles removed

a thing. Just recently Fox New's Sean Hannity reported that the Black Lives Matter movement is now today more popular with US people than is the current US President. Why is this? Did approx. 40% of USA people suddenly turn into revolutionaries virtually overnight? Or were they always revolutionaries (as I think USA people are) who did look into the structural obstacles raised and highlighted by the Black Lives Matter movement and did agree that there are indeed obstacles that need to be removed, for their country the USA to move forward fairly into the future

my own observation about USA people as a body, is that they have an innate sense of fairness. Is not enough for them the USA people, to have ideal fairness as expressed in the US Constitution. They want fairness to apply in practice also

interestingly yet unsurprisingly, politically right-of-center USA peoples' understanding of practical fairness, in the exceptionalism narrative sense, is that by removing unnecessary structural obstacles means that more people can be included and participate in the american success story. Something that the USA people as a body want for themselves and for others

 

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1 hour ago, Mollymews said:

Just recently Fox New's Sean Hannity reported that the Black Lives Matter movement is now today more popular with US people than is the current US President.

Might be more popular than the president, but it's approval rating is dropping with the public.  For this I point to all the arrests that have started (finally) happening and the counter protests.

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3 hours ago, karynmaria said:

I am actually glad they haven't.  I have learned so much from this thread.  Even though I might not agree with everyone, I certainly am getting lots out of it.  I can admit that as a white Canadian I am aware of racism, however, I didn't really realize how deep it really goes.  And this thread has really helped give me a different perspective on it.  I have never been a victim of racism so I can't really even comment on it or even begin to know how it feels to have it said to you or done to you.   It seems to me that everyone can agree racism is wrong, it is how we stop and change it that is dividing everyone. 

*waves* Hello. I'm not white yet there are those who are neither black nor white that have tried to post their own thoughts/beliefs/solutions/what have you in this thread only to be shouted down and leave the thread. On top of that it is a political thread which according to posts made by Lindens, isn't really allowed, yet here we are 57 pages later and it is still the same person (not persons) dominating the thread and and trying to silence those who have as much right, if not more, to have their say. 

Nothing will change as long as things like in the above paragraph keep occurring. There are more than 2 sides to a coin.

There are better ways to learn about racism than a forum thread. Like actually listening to those who have to deal with it day after day after year after year.

The truth is, no one other than those who do have to deal with every day of their lives, don't really care about the victims. All they really care about is putting it out of sight so that it is out of mind.

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4 hours ago, Chaser Zaks said:

Did you not read what I said? He has done the whole arm waving thing before. He was not mocking the reporter.

Yes, he was. He mocks people constantly. He has snide nasty nicknames for senators, congresspeople, hell his opponents running for president are mocked. He acts like a college frat boy rather than the President of a superpower country. Obama has more class in his pinkie than Trump has in his whole body. 

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6 hours ago, CaithLynnSayes said:

Please... Read this article:

The idea that black people are wantonly attacking white people in some sort of quiet race war is an untruthful and damaging narrative with a very long history in America. 

https://www.splcenter.org/20180614/biggest-lie-white-supremacist-propaganda-playbook-unraveling-truth-about-‘black-white-crime

On this we agree.

The problem is that TV and movies reflect a very different narrative. And because the USA is so socially segregated a LOT of people, whites in particular - tend to have little real life exposure to Blacks. This is actually MORE TRUE among 'liberal northerners' than southerners...

As such you get a lot of people who are for 'equality' as long as it doesn't show up in their backyard...

A huge number of those "Karen" videos of a white woman calling police... for example... seem to be happening in the cities right around me - in San Francisco and the cities around it. Long considered the 'headquarters' of 'left wing / liberal / racial equality' USA... and yet it's here that we have an unusual number of people who 'freak out' at the site of someone not white... NOT in the so-called "evil bad racist backward thinking dumb South"... where they... surprise... tend to actually know better, and not be as dumb...

Even people who 'don't believe what they see on TV' end up getting influenced by it... Especially when we have politicians from Reagan to Clinton using race to scare monger people... A lot of people remember that one of Trump's early racist things was coming out so strong against the 'Central Park 5' even after they were proven innocent... they forget that at the time Trump and the Clintons socialized together and it was Clinton who came up with 'superpredators' which was the angle that got Trump to act stupid in public over race... (Trump had at this point already lost one lawsuit over racism in housing... so he was already on record as a racist, but this one was a whole new level... inspired by his then homeboy Bill)...
 

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2 hours ago, Mollymews said:

next. Why do some people of color resist movements like Black Lives Matter? Similarly why do some women resist movements like Me Too?

i think that it is mostly because these people do not see themselves as a victim, nor do they want others to see them as a victim either. These people see themselves as highly capable individuals able to forge a path for themselves. And that structural obstacles are able to be overcome by those who are capable.  This is the narrative of individualistic revolutionary exceptionalism - to be the best that we can and overcome any obstacles that may confront us

to be the best that we can is not a bad thing. Is a good thing. What is bad is when being individually exceptional leads us to believe that obstacles, like structural racism, structural sexism, etc  aren't so impossibly difficult to overcome on an individual basis. We being, or believing ourselves to be, a capable person overcome these obstacles in our own lives and we don't see, or in some cases don't accept or even understand why others cannot also

Back when he was a famous celebrity for good reasons... OJ was known for strongly denying he was Black anytime something about Black people came up.

Psychologists who have looked into that with regards to him, and for others as well - note a common aspect of having been raised to see blackness as a bad thing all around him, and to see black men as a failure... he wanted to be associated with success. He didn't try to say he was white - but he did change his entire social circle to be white only... and he would say he wasn't Black, he was American.

Now we know there are plenty of people who see that as a good thing. But it was self-denial. And it came with an active distancing of himself from other Black people and from anything designed to help under-privileged Blacks.

He was apparently genuinely surprised when the White world turned against him so fast after his wife, and there in that dark moment, the only people who rallied behind him were the very people he had scorned - because they knew that, guilty or innocent didn't matter - he wouldn't be judged fairly either way.

At this point in time I believe he's figured out his skin tone... but it's a bit too late for him.

But this kind of thing is not uncommon. We see it in Ben Carson and Kanye West also

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2 hours ago, Mollymews said:

Just recently Fox New's Sean Hannity reported that the Black Lives Matter movement is now today more popular with US people than is the current US President.

Yeah but... that's a pretty low bar to set there these days... 😛

 

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I kinda skimmed the latest but I popped in to say this:

The term "people of colour" is not substantively different from "coloured people".

I don't know who came up with that new term or what they were smoking when they did it, but both are distasteful and reductive.

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2 hours ago, Akane Nacht said:

The term "people of colour" is not substantively different from "coloured people"

it is substantially different from an international perspective. Coloured was a description of people with mixed white and non-white parentage. Used in countries like Apartheid South Africa formally. And used colloquially throughout the British Empire back in the day

a person of colour is all those who are not white, in whole or part

i don't mind when somebody who doesn't know me personally categorises me as a person of colour in a discussion about race. Is better than being categorised as non-white

 

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10 hours ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

I'm a little surprised @Linden Lab hasn't put this dumpster fire out yet.

why they? we are civil here. just debating, i don't see anyone insulting the 'other part". only by talking about issues we can solve them. the real problem of the world is when people don't listen to different opinions.

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9 hours ago, Lyssa Greymoon said:

You don’t say?

Are any of you chuds who are so eager to tell Americans what to do actually Americans?

Americans tell all the time to other countries how should they live.

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16 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:
17 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

Good God Arielle, we already went over this.  One country is not the same as every other country. What Blacks went through here is not exactly the same as what other POC went through in other countries.  You have to study each country extensively to grasp how situations are different or similar for POC in any particular country.

Seriously Luna, where do you come up with some of this stuff? Just because I don't contest every utterance that comes from you, does not mean I agree with each. In my decades of participating and facilitating 1000's of various recovery groups, I have never heard anyone share that the pain of being rejected for their color or race was any different depending on their geographical location. In fact, it is because the pain of rejection in general is very much the same for any type of predjudice and discrimination that allows others to empathize with those who feel rejected because they are not the dominant color or race of the area they are in.

The pain of American prejudice is simply no different then the pain of the prejudice in any other country. The crux of the issue is the pain, not the geographical location.

Of course, pain is the human condition, and this most basic feeling of pain one encounters when discriminated against, this essence, is the same for everyone, everywhere. I could write a poem about it.    🤣

But to use this 'essence of feeling' notion to then dismiss the experiences of people which differ due to the society which surrounds them is ludicrous.  True empathy begins when you examine the differences, take the time and put in the effort which would allow you to see the differences between yourself and others and deal with them, finally coming to terms with the conflicts which inevitably arise. It's very easy to imagine empathy for others when you don't really know them, but this is total fantasy.

Repeatedly, your comments (and Akane's) for many months have demonstrated you don't take the time, put in the effort, to know the US or the Black experience within the US. Usually your comments are critical, trying to cram us into your brand of conservatism. Lately your tone has changed to the ooey gooey fantasy notion of believing there are no differences, or if there are it simply shouldn't matter, because pain is pain everywhere right?

This ooey gooey thing you're doing reminds me so much of a similar pattern done by Whites in the US -- Whites who insist there should be no problem because they don't 'see color'. There's probably nothing which irritates some Black people more than the delusional Whites who insist they see no color, reveling in an imagined closeness that 'should be' before taking the time to actually understand the specific experiences Blacks have endured and what they need in this society.  But these particular Black people want Whites to see color, and they want their voices to be heard -- they don't want some glossing over Kumbaya Krap before reality has been dealt with, designed by Whites to keep themselves from feeling uncomfortable.

Dear God, don't imply yet again that you think Akane's experience as a darker-skinned person in Singapore where all the people surrounding her have darker skin too is the same as a Black person in the US who is surrounded predominately by Whites. And that her experiences living where she does is the same as a Black person in the US who has to walk by statues commemorating White superiority. Or is the same as Black people who are often thought to be criminal here in the US. Or is the same as Black people in the US whose teachers more readily assume they are incapable of learning and going on to higher education.

And don't even try to twist this around again by saying I don't welcome the discussion from people in other countries. If both you and @Akane Nacht were like Molly, who obviously takes the time to understand the US, I'd be all ears. I may not agree with Molly in some cases, or even smile at some of her perceptions about my own country and think they're a little silly, but I seldom confront her as she obviously cares and puts in the time to develop empathy, demonstrated by the depth and detail of her comments.

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11 hours ago, Akane Nacht said:

I kinda skimmed the latest but I popped in to say this:

The term "people of colour" is not substantively different from "coloured people".

I don't know who came up with that new term or what they were smoking when they did it, but both are distasteful and reductive.

Akane, you're doing it again! Over, and over, and over you simply assume Singapore is the same as the US regarding racial issues -- they are not!  I mean, I could overlook your doing this a few times, but you have repeatedly done this for months, and in ways destructive to Blacks, as we butted heads along the way...and you've shown no inclination to research the differences between Singapore and the US yet you give advice and criticize the US and Blacks repeatedly.  How hard would it have been to Google 'POC' before insulting people in the US who use it by saying "I don't know who came up with that new term or what they were smoking when they did it, but both are distasteful and reductive". 

Singapore is not the US....Singapore is not the US...Singapore is not the US...*Copypaste 1000 times.


https://www.sapiens.org/column/race/people-of-color/#:~:text=“ People of color” is a term primarily,important point I discuss in more detail below.

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Well I feel pretty sad about this Harriet movie and I'm afraid to watch it and feel disappointed. I've always felt inspired by Harriet and her life-risking escapades where many slaves were freed through her effort. I first heard of her via a popular folk singer and activist for many causes, Holly Near. I remember Harriet as one of the women posted on the 'wall of women' wall in my Women's Studies Lounge, designed to demonstrate that women had the power to achieve. So here is the song and lyrics, to reflect what the movie really is about, honoring Harriet, despite the film's defective attempt. 

Harriet Tubman

One night I dreamed I was in slavery
'Bout 1850 was the time
Sorrow was the only sign
Nothing around to ease my mind

Out of the night appeared a lady
Leading a distant Pilgrim band
"First mate" she yelled, pointing her hand
"Make room aboard for this young woman"

Singing come on up, I got a lifeline
Come on up to this train of mine
Come on up, I got a lifeline
Come on up to this train of mine
She said her name was Harriet Tubman
And she drove for the underground railroad

Hundreds of miles we traveled onward
Gathering slaves from town to town
Seeking every lost and found
Setting those free that once were bound
Somehow my heart was growing weaker
I fell by the wayside's sinking sand
Firmly did this lady stand
She lifted me up and took my hand

Singing come on up, I got a lifeline
Come on up to this train of mine
Come on up, I got a lifeline
Come on up to this train of mine
She said her name was Harriet Tubman
And she drove for the underground railroad

Who are these children dressed in red
They must be the ones that Moses led

Who are these children dressed in red
They must be the ones that Moses led

Singing come on up, I got a lifeline
Come on up to this train of mine
Come on up, I got a lifeline
Come on up to this train of mine
She said her name was Harriet Tubman
And she drove for the underground railroad 

 

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I have a question that may be a bit rude, but asking it anyway.  Are you black Luna?

14 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Repeatedly, your comments (and Akane's) for many months have demonstrated you don't take the time, put in the effort, to know the US or the Black experience within the US. Usually your comments are critical, trying to cram us into your brand of conservatism. Lately your tone has changed to the ooey gooey fantasy notion of believing there are no differences, or if there are it simply shouldn't matter, because pain is pain everywhere right?

This ooey gooey thing you're doing reminds me so much of a similar pattern done by Whites in the US -- Whites who insist there should be no problem because they don't 'see color'. There's probably nothing which irritates some Black people more than the delusional Whites who insist they see no color, reveling in an imagined closeness that 'should be' before taking the time to actually understand the specific experiences Blacks have endured and what they need in this society.  But these particular Black people want Whites to see color, and they want their voices to be heard -- they don't want some glossing over Kumbaya Krap before reality has been dealt with, designed by Whites to keep themselves from feeling uncomfortable.

And if not, why do you feel you have the right to speak for what black people do and do not want and what does and doesn't irritate them??  Cos from stuff I have read and seen, they HATE when white people speak for them, however well intentioned it is.

And since you ALWAYS ask me to back up what I say...

Here we have a policeman...a black man who speaks about his experiences when speaking to other BLACK people and WHITE people jump in to speak for them.  Around 4 min mark in case you don't want to hear the sanity this man speaks.

 

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This is one for the German readers out there.

According this, Germans study American Racism, slavery, and Jim Crowe at about the same point in upper level advanced history where they study the ideology of the Nazi Regime in 'greater detail' - examining how group think and racism work to twist people, reading excerpt from Hitler's writings to see how he managed to sway his contemporaries, and how that ideology was flawed and lacking in morality.

In essence - they study the somewhat obvious link Between the Nazi's and the USA racism and slavery. Simon here doesn't mention whether or not this includes study of the Native Genocide and links between Hitler, Henry Ford, and others... you have to dig deep into your history to know those details as the USA works hard to cover them up...

 

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