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3 hours ago, Jordan Whitt said:

....why do you feel you have the right to speak for what black people do and do not want and what does and doesn't irritate them??  Cos from stuff I have read and seen, they HATE when white people speak for them, however well intentioned it is.

And since you ALWAYS ask me to back up what I say...

 

3 hours ago, Jordan Whitt said:

Here we have a policeman...a black man who speaks about his experiences when speaking to other BLACK people and WHITE people jump in to speak for them.  Around 4 min mark in case you don't want to hear the sanity this man speaks.

I am not interrupting a Black person as they attempt to speak and talking over them as I 'splain what the real issues are, as is happening to the Black Officer in the video you posted, and so your analogy and accusations are not valid.

It's not me "speaking for Blacks" --  I'm simply relaying to others a dynamic which Blacks I've known said bothered them greatly -- they want their voices to be heard and not shushed away with Kumbaya Krap tactics that prevent us from seeing their specific experiences which matter to them.

This dynamic where White people attempt to shut up Black people by pulling this Kumbaya Krap and telling Blacks they don't 'see color' or that we should just all get along and stop focusing on racial issues -- this is common knowledge in certain circles, but it is rather obscure so I can't blame you for not knowing about it. I first learned a bit about it at women's festivals where Black and White women discussed issues regarding how to make sure Black women were being supported too in the struggle for women's rights. This dynamic has even been discussed here in one of its many forms.

It's good you are becoming woke though, and recognizing we shouldn't interrupt Blacks and tell them what their truth should be, so kudos to you!  We should never just make something up out of thin air and tell Blacks or others what we made up is, or should be, their experience.... or tell Blacks how they should feel about anything related to how they experience being Black.

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This graphic, which I saw over the road at VVO, distinguishes between the political and the non-political quite well, I think  

Why it can feel hard to talk about racial inequality, and why you should do it anyway.... So, anyway, as i mentioned in a couple of other threads, the company I work for gave us a paid day off in

Racism is defined as: prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior. You can't change the definition to

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22 hours ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

Sometimes my intelligence and my knowledge are also NOT on the same topics... much to my dismay when I realize it... O.o

That noted... I've mentioned this before; I'm more correctly 'Chicana in America'. Mulatto technically. Only people with access to my DNA realize I'm part black. Culturally my roots come out of communities of Latino/Latina people who did not ever cross the border, but had the border cross them. The kind who speak a version of Spanish that is about as Mexican as a Burrito, or as Indian as Curry.

These are mi homies:

😛

We do have a lot of shared struggles though - so I relate on that ground.

The current 'topic of the nation' is about Black Lives Matter - so that's where I've been coming from on this one. Even if I were to be selfish; I'm in the set of dominoes set to fall right after the African Americans. But beyond that; I feel solidarity is vital to everyone so I rally behind whoever is being targeted by injustice.

 

 

Huh! Wow. OK, I've read you forever, old forums, this forum, your feed, your blog... this whole time I thought you were Black?! Thanks for the correction. :)

Fwiw, people thought *I* was Black, in the other thread that got shut down. (And I suspect if they still thought that, that their replies would have been different... :/  ) . Me. The quintessential white broad. :)  

Your correction standing, I meant every word of what I said that prompted your reply above. I respect you a helluva lot, and think over the years you've gotten way more hassle than you have deserved.

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25 minutes ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

This is one for the German readers out there...

He forgot to say that Germany was split for 4 decades till 1990 so one part was a U.S protectorate and being taught to be a good Capitalist while the other a Soviet protectorate and taught to be a good communist. It wasn't exactly a liberation, many atrocities happened by the occupant forces such as r*pes etc.

According to German historians at least 400,000 children were fathered by troops after Christmas 1945.

https://www.dw.com/en/troops-fathered-400000-children-in-post-war-germany/a-18237282

War was and always will be about power and influence , has nothing to do with liberating people, that's bullsh*t for the public to feel good and be motivated.
American politicians and their relationships with the German(Nazi) politicians before the war were fine same way it was with all countries.

Regarding racism and it's history on the U.S, well it's a country build on colonial lands founded by slave owners who declared it "the land of the free".

Doesn't it sound like a paradox?

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7 hours ago, Seicher Rae said:

Your correction standing, I meant every word of what I said that prompted your reply above. I respect you a helluva lot, and think over the years you've gotten way more hassle than you have deserved.

I'm trained in two professions that have an unusual way of approaching topics. Law and tech. Both adhere to the idea that you have 'loosely held passionate opinions'. In other words - argue to the end for a stance you stand for. Fiercely debate it. But then drop it like a lead weight if you find through analysis or debate that it is flawed.

 

This is very unlike most people, who have the opposite stance: strongly held non-passionate opinions.

Example: most people get very upset when you debate politics or religion or core beliefs. They turn against or shun people that challenge these, and lock down into a stance. This is human nature. Friction and discord are viewed as bad... and it doesn't matter if the objective is to find a greater truth.

 

A lot of people are not good at telling the difference between a personal attack and even a questioning of a policy or opinion... Because to a lot of people these are the same things...

 

But in Law and Tech - it is the friction and discord that you seek out, the argument that leads you to find corrections.

The problem is that if most people find this deeply upsetting, when you live by it you can become toxicly unpopular...

If you look at a lot of the hassle I get - it is attempts to shut me down. Or it is less than well developed short and blunt debunkings of my stance that... are not designed to engage for analysis, but to "show how wrong I am" in an attempt to dismiss me out of the conversation. That becomes obvious when these arguments also include levels of assigning blame or failure to me for not holding their stance...

- If you actually want to debate, you discuss stance and ideas. Even if vehemently. Even if in anger... but you try to keep the other person interesting and wanting to talk with you, so you can see if their idea is possibly better than yours... NOT to disprove them... but to see if they can find ways to improve you.

But it's rare when I get someone like that.

Mostly I get people who either agree with me, or are dismissive of me (leading to that 'hassling' 😛 )

 

EDIT: On this notion of 'loosely held but passionately argued beliefs...' Some things I've journeyed through:

Some months back when I first got a Belliserria Linden home I questioned some of the policies and asked about why it was scripted the way it was and asked if certain things could be added to surrounded areas. I was pretty strong worded on pushing for this - I picked a topic and argued out all my angles on it. Some people expressed extreme dismay and even felt I was getting personal and insulting towards the Lindens. I just wanted to see the rationale of choices, and see if the things I desired could be won over. When many of them were not, and good reasons for that were provided - I moved on. Settled - point dropped. I've since even defended some aspects of how the Linden Homes are set up that I had argued against.

The same thing is currently happening for me in my conflict between mesh bodies. I've made an insane number of posts attacking Maitreya... so it might surprise some people that my current mesh body of choice is Maitreya... with their current version and a changing landscape vis-a-vis BOM, it was time to re-examine my stance, and so I flipped because my old stance was no longer correct.

I was an extreme right-winger evangelical type in my early teens. The sort that would look at classmates in scorn and make lists of who'd bought a ticket on the elevator going down... It was actually the process of moving past this, and how that became the first moment in my life where the object of my attacks was my own worldview... that I first started getting on the 'loosely held but passionate' stance... A lot of folks make a journey into some kind of neo-paganism at that point - which I did, but then I went the other way again - that journey of analysis kept me moving until I explored it out in as much detail as I could and came back to my original faith but without the religious dogma.

I was having a conversation today about why I like Malcolm X but don't care for MLK... It's because Malcolm, like Paul in the Bible... faced a moment and changed. Malcolm did it twice. Actually he did it four times... from good kid to criminal to black separatist to advocate for universal integration.

 

 

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I thought this was de-escalating but it's just getting worse....and I wonder how bad it will get leading up to the election, as he is trying to make people feel unsafe and vote for 'law and order':

"An outside agitator is stirring up violent protest in the streets of Portland, Oregon. His hand is at work in Seattle; Oakland, California; and Los Angeles, too. This agent provocateur set out to inflame protests simmering in these cities by making sure that armed hordes were in their midst, and it has worked: Many more protesters are out on the streets, throwing bricks at law-enforcement officers and engaging in vandalism. Blocks of these cities have been engulfed in tear gas. Mayors are pleading for calm.

When there’s upheaval like this, it’s sometimes hard to track down the culprit. But in this case it’s not hard to identify or find him: The outside agitator’s name is Donald Trump, and he lives at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue in Washington, D.C.

The president’s aim in deploying federal agents to Portland and elsewhere was barely concealed from the start: Send federal forces into liberal cities where they are unwelcome, wait for trouble to start, and then use it as both retroactive justification and political leverage for the president’s troubled reelection campaign. It’s been a roaring success. The provocation has been so effective that the Trump administration is now preparing to send more federal agents to Portland, to tamp down the violence that has been inflamed by sending federal agents to Portland."

More here:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/07/trump-getting-what-he-wants-portland/614635/

Edited by Luna Bliss
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2 hours ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

I'm trained in two professions that have an unusual way of approaching topics. Law and tech. Both adhere to the idea that you have 'loosely held passionate opinions'. In other words - argue to the end for a stance you stand for. Fiercely debate it. But then drop it like a lead weight if you find through analysis or debate that it is flawed.

 

This is very unlike most people, who have the opposite stance: strongly held non-passionate opinions.

Example: most people get very upset when you debate politics or religion or core beliefs. They turn against or shun people that challenge these, and lock down into a stance. This is human nature. Friction and discord are viewed as bad... and it doesn't matter if the objective is to find a greater truth.

 

A lot of people are not good at telling the difference between a personal attack and even a questioning of a policy or opinion... Because to a lot of people these are the same things...

 

But in Law and Tech - it is the friction and discord that you seek out, the argument that leads you to find corrections.

The problem is that if most people find this deeply upsetting, when you live by it you can become toxicly unpopular...

If you look at a lot of the hassle I get - it is attempts to shut me down. Or it is less than well developed short and blunt debunkings of my stance that... are not designed to engage for analysis, but to "show how wrong I am" in an attempt to dismiss me out of the conversation. That becomes obvious when these arguments also include levels of assigning blame or failure to me for not holding their stance...

- If you actually want to debate, you discuss stance and ideas. Even if vehemently. Even if in anger... but you try to keep the other person interesting and wanting to talk with you, so you can see if their idea is possibly better than yours... NOT to disprove them... but to see if they can find ways to improve you.

But it's rare when I get someone like that.

Mostly I get people who either agree with me, or are dismissive of me (leading to that 'hassling' 😛 )

 

 

 

Trying to remember if I've ever debated with you. :D  I don't think so. If I did it was a loooooooooong time ago.

I totally get what you're saying. And like you, I've found few willing to engage in actual discussion. 

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50 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

White woman tries to convince a black woman that she's oppressed.

Interesting video, i love her spirit and the way she expresses her arguments towards those white people. (VERY WHITE SKINNED to be fair for almost August)

Also some of the protestors wearing jackets and blouses? Are they cold or something? Weird americans.

 

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2 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

White woman tries to convince a black woman that she's oppressed.

You do realize that's from the alt-right Breitbart News?

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33 minutes ago, Jordan Whitt said:
8 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

It's good you are becoming woke though

I will never be "woke" because I was never asleep.

Nobody is ever totally 'woke' -- I learn something new every day. Tonight I learned more about the inspiring Harriet Tubman and how she helped free slaves on the underground railroad during the period before the Civil War. Social injustice is a scourge upon the earth, and if not fought it can ruin lives or vastly limit potential for those oppressed.  We all have to fight to be free, and if we can it's good help others who are having trouble too.

* I recommend the movie, even though it had the Black bounty hunter. Fortunately he wasn't central as some reviews claimed, and it showed the real conditions of the period where White slavers were being the biggest villains.

harriet movie.jpg

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3 hours ago, Seicher Rae said:

I totally get what you're saying. And like you, I've found few willing to engage in actual discussion. 

The best way to debate, even with people willing to change their minds with reflection...

...

...is to make sure people get that reflection.

If you notice me suddenly vanish from this or that topic - it's because I know that if I don't the 'instinctive human behavior' wins out and I get an entrenched view I don't want to debate, just want to cling to... By stepping out I am trying to give myself and hopefully someone else... the time to cool off and think it all through.

Again... some people view that as cowardice or conceding or refusing to admit I was wrong or whatever other negative emotion they can ascribe to it...

But it is really about cooling myself down so I can seriously think through my stance, digest the arguments against my stance, and see if I need self adjusting or at the least, a new approach that better expresses what I wanted to communicate rather than what was I actually saying... (it's very hard for people to see the difference in these things for themselves AND for others... so you usually need to step back and reflect to be able to see that what you wanted to say and what you did say don't match up... human beings are almost never able to see that when in the 'thick of battle'...).

 

 

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36 minutes ago, Jordan Whitt said:

I will never be "woke" because I was never asleep.

I find I need to keep pinching myself or I risk falling asleep. 😉

Getting old... starting to see kids that need to get off my lawn...

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20 hours ago, Mollymews said:

it is substantially different from an international perspective. Coloured was a description of people with mixed white and non-white parentage. Used in countries like Apartheid South Africa formally. And used colloquially throughout the British Empire back in the day

a person of colour is all those who are not white, in whole or part

i don't mind when somebody who doesn't know me personally categorises me as a person of colour in a discussion about race. Is better than being categorised as non-white

 

Sorry, I still don't really see the difference. I personally don't like broad-brush categories, especially based on physical appearance. I don't even like blonde jokes! 😛

If others are ok with this label, that's their call. I'm not the boss of anyone but me. 

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11 hours ago, Jordan Whitt said:

Here we have a policeman...a black man who speaks about his experiences when speaking to other BLACK people and WHITE people jump in to speak for them.  Around 4 min mark in case you don't want to hear the sanity this man speaks.

That's a really interesting video. About 17 min mark he talks about solutions, which is something I was asking about earlier in this thread and got some good responses. It's great to see his enthusiasm, and I hope it inspires others. From my few visits to the US, the people there are warm, welcoming and funny (only immigration guys a bit stern). Hope they find their way back to that.

ps. for the person who keeps talking about me, I have discovered the ignore button on forums. I likes it. 😊

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5 hours ago, Nick0678 said:

Interesting video, i love her spirit and the way she expresses her arguments towards those white people. (VERY WHITE SKINNED to be fair for almost August)

Also some of the protestors wearing jackets and blouses? Are they cold or something? Weird americans.

 

Yes, she is very passionate and makes some good points about the need to clean up their own backyards first since there is way more to worry about from other blacks then there is from police. She mentioned Chicago a couple times and and a quick search shows how murders are way up in several American cities since this all started and police response is down:

https://chicago.suntimes.com/crime/2020/6/8/21281998/chicago-deadliest-day-violence-murder-history-police-crime

but BLM seems to ignore that and continues its demands to defund the police and in effect shackle those that remain from dealing with it :(

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4 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

You do realize that's from the alt-right Breitbart News?

Well I wasn't till you mentioned it and in any case don't see your point as I am more concerned about its content then who or what posted it. One cannot become awakened/woken until one is in full possession of the truth. From that perspective I have had to even change my default search engine from Google to https://duckduckgo.com/ as Google is very lopsided in its search hits being predominantly alt-left.

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13 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Yes, she is very passionate and makes some good points about the need to clean up their own backyards first since there is way more to worry about from other blacks then there is from police. She mentioned Chicago a couple times and and a quick search shows how murders are way up in several American cities since this all started and police response is down:

https://chicago.suntimes.com/crime/2020/6/8/21281998/chicago-deadliest-day-violence-murder-history-police-crime

but BLM seems to ignore that and continues its demands to defund the police and in effect shackle those that remain from dealing with it :(

I see.. 18 murders in one day and just one city sounds like a war zone to me.

We have a maximum 10 per month over the whole country, that woman has every right to be upset with anyone patronizing her.

And wtf is that "shame on you" stuff trying to psychologically manipulate her. Stay and talk or take a walk. Imbeciles.

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7 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

Nobody is ever totally 'woke' -- I learn something new every day. Tonight I learned more about the inspiring Harriet Tubman and how she helped free slaves on the underground railroad during the period before the Civil War. Social injustice is a scourge upon the earth, and if not fought it can ruin lives or vastly limit potential for those oppressed.  We all have to fight to be free, and if we can it's good help others who are having trouble too.

* I recommend the movie, even though it had the Black bounty hunter. Fortunately he wasn't central as some reviews claimed, and it showed the real conditions of the period where White slavers were being the biggest villains.

I disagree with you on so many points here, including how white people helped free slaves and worked the underground railroad too - in fact, it probably wouldn't have succeeded without them, but the only thing I will address is the part where I bolded your words.

Whilst I agree that slavery was a hideous part of history, I am throwing it out there that it is unfair to call people villians who in their point in history were just people living their lives the way the world was back then.  Maybe not always in the nicest way possible, but it's just how life goes.

A weird, but only way I can make my point, example.  Let's say 100 years from now, the vegans finally got their way and eating meat is looked on as barbaric and people who did were worse than Hitler.  Would you like people from the future calling you a barbaric villian because they are pushing their values and way of life back onto us as we live today? (This is assuming you are a meat eater of course.)

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3 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Well I wasn't till you mentioned it and in any case don't see your point as I am more concerned about its content then who or what posted it. One cannot become awakened/woken until one is in full possession of the truth. From that perspective I have had to even change my default search engine from Google to https://duckduckgo.com/ as Google is very lopsided in its search hits being predominantly alt-left.

Breitbart is a collection of fairy tales for fascists. But whatever it takes to avoid the “alt-left”, whatever that is, I guess.

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3 hours ago, Jordan Whitt said:

I disagree with you on so many points here, including how white people helped free slaves and worked the underground railroad too - in fact, it probably wouldn't have succeeded without them, but the only thing I will address is the part where I bolded your words.

So you can make this correlation, but you're posting videos of a black woman (incidentally there were two black people telling her to go home) telling white BLM protesters to go home.

Ok

Before anyone jumps on me, you its a collective you

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3 hours ago, Jordan Whitt said:

Let's say 100 years from now, the vegans finally got their way and eating meat is looked on as barbaric and people who did were worse than Hitler.  Would you like people from the future calling you a barbaric villian because they are pushing their values and way of life back onto us as we live today? (This is assuming you are a meat eater of course.)

This is a very interesting analogy.  So many things that come out of ignorance.  I call it Monkey-see, Monkey-do.  It's like when you are a child and bacon is put in front of you for the first time, you don't know what it is, but you eat it, just like everyone else.  So much of this world and our lives are like that, follow the leader kind of thing.  But, it's propaganda and lies that are the real villain in all our lives, even today.   Since 9-11 certain Christians want us to fear all Muslims for example.  

I have a story to tell.  A Christian pastor visited my building and folks gathered in one of our large rooms for a Sunday service.  The room is right by the elevator.  As I walked by I heard the pastor saying "Muslims won't be happy until all Christians are dead.  Every last one of us."  This is the propaganda I am speaking about.  It's the instill the fear that someone is trying to kill you and your family fear.  It's the fear that drives men to war, among other things such as taking the land, the goods and the childless women so those women can bare sires of their loins on the land.  

I'd vote for a vegan world in a heartbeat as it is barbaric.  I do not, however, call meat eaters villains, though I have gotten into debates with some meat eaters but they were not heated debates.   Still, an interesting analogy though.  Sorry, answering when not directed at me.  

Propaganda is the biggest villian and it's been in all our lives in one way or another.  Plus, outright lies, as Pussycat mentioned.

But, all of us eat that bacon in one or another.  Some of us are becoming "woke" to governments tricks, however, in regards to governments attempting to propagandize us against each other.  

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11 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

This is a very interesting analogy.  So many things that come out of ignorance.  I call it Monkey-see, Monkey-do.  It's like when you are a child and bacon is put in front of you for the first time, you don't know what it is, but you eat it, just like everyone else.  So much of this world and our lives are like that, follow the leader kind of thing.  But, it's propaganda and lies that are the real villain in all our lives, even today.   Since 9-11 certain Christians want us to fear all Muslims for example.  

I have a story to tell.  A Christian pastor visited my building and folks gathered in one of our large rooms for a Sunday service.  The room is right by the elevator.  As I walked by I heard the pastor saying "Muslims won't be happy until all Christians are dead.  Every last one of us."  This is the propaganda I am speaking about.  It's the instill the fear that someone is trying to kill you and your family fear.  It's the fear that drives men to war, among other things such as taking the land, the goods and the childless women so those women can bare sires of their loins on the land.  

I'd vote for a vegan world in a heartbeat as it is barbaric.  I do not, however, call meat eaters villains, though I have gotten into debates with some meat eaters but they were not heated debates.   Still, an interesting analogy though.  Sorry, answering when not directed at me.  

Propaganda is the biggest villian and it's been in all our lives in one way or another.  Plus, outright lies, as Pussycat mentioned.

I chased a preacher off our land one time with a shotgun.. The police came and everything..

This was before we had a gate to our drive..

This son of a b*tch came to my house on my land holding up his bible like he was trying to exercise the place..

He'd hold it up and yell, Tried in the fire seven time.. I went to slam the door and he stuck his foot  in to block it.. So I reached in the closet by the door ,grabbed a shotgun and Told him  I'll give ya fire  if you want fire.. That boy took off running across the yard so fast..Then IO shot a round into the ground and he kicked it into turbo..

I yelled to him as he was running..you ever come back here again and I'll lay you flat!

The police showed up and got my side..I said soon as I went to shut the door and he blocked it with his foot..I felt my life was in danger and grabbed the shotgun..

They asked me if I wanted to press charges.. I said no, but if you see him tell him he best not come on our road ever again, because I'll be letting my family know all about him..They won't be near as kind as I was too him..

Damn preachers with attitude.

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