Akane Nacht Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 I kinda skimmed the latest but I popped in to say this: The term "people of colour" is not substantively different from "coloured people". I don't know who came up with that new term or what they were smoking when they did it, but both are distasteful and reductive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mollymews Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 2 hours ago, Akane Nacht said: The term "people of colour" is not substantively different from "coloured people" it is substantially different from an international perspective. Coloured was a description of people with mixed white and non-white parentage. Used in countries like Apartheid South Africa formally. And used colloquially throughout the British Empire back in the day a person of colour is all those who are not white, in whole or part i don't mind when somebody who doesn't know me personally categorises me as a person of colour in a discussion about race. Is better than being categorised as non-white Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin Tyran Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 10 hours ago, Silent Mistwalker said: I'm a little surprised @Linden Lab hasn't put this dumpster fire out yet. why they? we are civil here. just debating, i don't see anyone insulting the 'other part". only by talking about issues we can solve them. the real problem of the world is when people don't listen to different opinions. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin Tyran Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 9 hours ago, Lyssa Greymoon said: You don’t say? Are any of you chuds who are so eager to tell Americans what to do actually Americans? Americans tell all the time to other countries how should they live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 (edited) 16 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said: 17 hours ago, Luna Bliss said: Good God Arielle, we already went over this. One country is not the same as every other country. What Blacks went through here is not exactly the same as what other POC went through in other countries. You have to study each country extensively to grasp how situations are different or similar for POC in any particular country. Seriously Luna, where do you come up with some of this stuff? Just because I don't contest every utterance that comes from you, does not mean I agree with each. In my decades of participating and facilitating 1000's of various recovery groups, I have never heard anyone share that the pain of being rejected for their color or race was any different depending on their geographical location. In fact, it is because the pain of rejection in general is very much the same for any type of predjudice and discrimination that allows others to empathize with those who feel rejected because they are not the dominant color or race of the area they are in. The pain of American prejudice is simply no different then the pain of the prejudice in any other country. The crux of the issue is the pain, not the geographical location. Of course, pain is the human condition, and this most basic feeling of pain one encounters when discriminated against, this essence, is the same for everyone, everywhere. I could write a poem about it. 🤣 But to use this 'essence of feeling' notion to then dismiss the experiences of people which differ due to the society which surrounds them is ludicrous. True empathy begins when you examine the differences, take the time and put in the effort which would allow you to see the differences between yourself and others and deal with them, finally coming to terms with the conflicts which inevitably arise. It's very easy to imagine empathy for others when you don't really know them, but this is total fantasy. Repeatedly, your comments (and Akane's) for many months have demonstrated you don't take the time, put in the effort, to know the US or the Black experience within the US. Usually your comments are critical, trying to cram us into your brand of conservatism. Lately your tone has changed to the ooey gooey fantasy notion of believing there are no differences, or if there are it simply shouldn't matter, because pain is pain everywhere right? This ooey gooey thing you're doing reminds me so much of a similar pattern done by Whites in the US -- Whites who insist there should be no problem because they don't 'see color'. There's probably nothing which irritates some Black people more than the delusional Whites who insist they see no color, reveling in an imagined closeness that 'should be' before taking the time to actually understand the specific experiences Blacks have endured and what they need in this society. But these particular Black people want Whites to see color, and they want their voices to be heard -- they don't want some glossing over Kumbaya Krap before reality has been dealt with, designed by Whites to keep themselves from feeling uncomfortable. Dear God, don't imply yet again that you think Akane's experience as a darker-skinned person in Singapore where all the people surrounding her have darker skin too is the same as a Black person in the US who is surrounded predominately by Whites. And that her experiences living where she does is the same as a Black person in the US who has to walk by statues commemorating White superiority. Or is the same as Black people who are often thought to be criminal here in the US. Or is the same as Black people in the US whose teachers more readily assume they are incapable of learning and going on to higher education. And don't even try to twist this around again by saying I don't welcome the discussion from people in other countries. If both you and @Akane Nacht were like Molly, who obviously takes the time to understand the US, I'd be all ears. I may not agree with Molly in some cases, or even smile at some of her perceptions about my own country and think they're a little silly, but I seldom confront her as she obviously cares and puts in the time to develop empathy, demonstrated by the depth and detail of her comments. Edited July 28, 2020 by Luna Bliss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 (edited) 11 hours ago, Akane Nacht said: I kinda skimmed the latest but I popped in to say this: The term "people of colour" is not substantively different from "coloured people". I don't know who came up with that new term or what they were smoking when they did it, but both are distasteful and reductive. Akane, you're doing it again! Over, and over, and over you simply assume Singapore is the same as the US regarding racial issues -- they are not! I mean, I could overlook your doing this a few times, but you have repeatedly done this for months, and in ways destructive to Blacks, as we butted heads along the way...and you've shown no inclination to research the differences between Singapore and the US yet you give advice and criticize the US and Blacks repeatedly. How hard would it have been to Google 'POC' before insulting people in the US who use it by saying "I don't know who came up with that new term or what they were smoking when they did it, but both are distasteful and reductive". Singapore is not the US....Singapore is not the US...Singapore is not the US...*Copypaste 1000 times. https://www.sapiens.org/column/race/people-of-color/#:~:text=“ People of color” is a term primarily,important point I discuss in more detail below. Edited July 28, 2020 by Luna Bliss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 Well I feel pretty sad about this Harriet movie and I'm afraid to watch it and feel disappointed. I've always felt inspired by Harriet and her life-risking escapades where many slaves were freed through her effort. I first heard of her via a popular folk singer and activist for many causes, Holly Near. I remember Harriet as one of the women posted on the 'wall of women' wall in my Women's Studies Lounge, designed to demonstrate that women had the power to achieve. So here is the song and lyrics, to reflect what the movie really is about, honoring Harriet, despite the film's defective attempt. Harriet Tubman One night I dreamed I was in slavery 'Bout 1850 was the time Sorrow was the only sign Nothing around to ease my mind Out of the night appeared a lady Leading a distant Pilgrim band "First mate" she yelled, pointing her hand "Make room aboard for this young woman" Singing come on up, I got a lifeline Come on up to this train of mine Come on up, I got a lifeline Come on up to this train of mine She said her name was Harriet Tubman And she drove for the underground railroad Hundreds of miles we traveled onward Gathering slaves from town to town Seeking every lost and found Setting those free that once were bound Somehow my heart was growing weaker I fell by the wayside's sinking sand Firmly did this lady stand She lifted me up and took my hand Singing come on up, I got a lifeline Come on up to this train of mine Come on up, I got a lifeline Come on up to this train of mine She said her name was Harriet Tubman And she drove for the underground railroad Who are these children dressed in red They must be the ones that Moses led Who are these children dressed in red They must be the ones that Moses led Singing come on up, I got a lifeline Come on up to this train of mine Come on up, I got a lifeline Come on up to this train of mine She said her name was Harriet Tubman And she drove for the underground railroad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordyn McGregor Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 I have a question that may be a bit rude, but asking it anyway. Are you black Luna? 14 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said: Repeatedly, your comments (and Akane's) for many months have demonstrated you don't take the time, put in the effort, to know the US or the Black experience within the US. Usually your comments are critical, trying to cram us into your brand of conservatism. Lately your tone has changed to the ooey gooey fantasy notion of believing there are no differences, or if there are it simply shouldn't matter, because pain is pain everywhere right? This ooey gooey thing you're doing reminds me so much of a similar pattern done by Whites in the US -- Whites who insist there should be no problem because they don't 'see color'. There's probably nothing which irritates some Black people more than the delusional Whites who insist they see no color, reveling in an imagined closeness that 'should be' before taking the time to actually understand the specific experiences Blacks have endured and what they need in this society. But these particular Black people want Whites to see color, and they want their voices to be heard -- they don't want some glossing over Kumbaya Krap before reality has been dealt with, designed by Whites to keep themselves from feeling uncomfortable. And if not, why do you feel you have the right to speak for what black people do and do not want and what does and doesn't irritate them?? Cos from stuff I have read and seen, they HATE when white people speak for them, however well intentioned it is. And since you ALWAYS ask me to back up what I say... Here we have a policeman...a black man who speaks about his experiences when speaking to other BLACK people and WHITE people jump in to speak for them. Around 4 min mark in case you don't want to hear the sanity this man speaks. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pussycat Catnap Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 This is one for the German readers out there. According this, Germans study American Racism, slavery, and Jim Crowe at about the same point in upper level advanced history where they study the ideology of the Nazi Regime in 'greater detail' - examining how group think and racism work to twist people, reading excerpt from Hitler's writings to see how he managed to sway his contemporaries, and how that ideology was flawed and lacking in morality. In essence - they study the somewhat obvious link Between the Nazi's and the USA racism and slavery. Simon here doesn't mention whether or not this includes study of the Native Genocide and links between Hitler, Henry Ford, and others... you have to dig deep into your history to know those details as the USA works hard to cover them up... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, Jordan Whitt said: ....why do you feel you have the right to speak for what black people do and do not want and what does and doesn't irritate them?? Cos from stuff I have read and seen, they HATE when white people speak for them, however well intentioned it is. And since you ALWAYS ask me to back up what I say... 3 hours ago, Jordan Whitt said: Here we have a policeman...a black man who speaks about his experiences when speaking to other BLACK people and WHITE people jump in to speak for them. Around 4 min mark in case you don't want to hear the sanity this man speaks. I am not interrupting a Black person as they attempt to speak and talking over them as I 'splain what the real issues are, as is happening to the Black Officer in the video you posted, and so your analogy and accusations are not valid. It's not me "speaking for Blacks" -- I'm simply relaying to others a dynamic which Blacks I've known said bothered them greatly -- they want their voices to be heard and not shushed away with Kumbaya Krap tactics that prevent us from seeing their specific experiences which matter to them. This dynamic where White people attempt to shut up Black people by pulling this Kumbaya Krap and telling Blacks they don't 'see color' or that we should just all get along and stop focusing on racial issues -- this is common knowledge in certain circles, but it is rather obscure so I can't blame you for not knowing about it. I first learned a bit about it at women's festivals where Black and White women discussed issues regarding how to make sure Black women were being supported too in the struggle for women's rights. This dynamic has even been discussed here in one of its many forms. It's good you are becoming woke though, and recognizing we shouldn't interrupt Blacks and tell them what their truth should be, so kudos to you! We should never just make something up out of thin air and tell Blacks or others what we made up is, or should be, their experience.... or tell Blacks how they should feel about anything related to how they experience being Black. Edited July 28, 2020 by Luna Bliss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seicher Rae Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 22 hours ago, Pussycat Catnap said: Sometimes my intelligence and my knowledge are also NOT on the same topics... much to my dismay when I realize it... That noted... I've mentioned this before; I'm more correctly 'Chicana in America'. Mulatto technically. Only people with access to my DNA realize I'm part black. Culturally my roots come out of communities of Latino/Latina people who did not ever cross the border, but had the border cross them. The kind who speak a version of Spanish that is about as Mexican as a Burrito, or as Indian as Curry. These are mi homies: 😛 We do have a lot of shared struggles though - so I relate on that ground. The current 'topic of the nation' is about Black Lives Matter - so that's where I've been coming from on this one. Even if I were to be selfish; I'm in the set of dominoes set to fall right after the African Americans. But beyond that; I feel solidarity is vital to everyone so I rally behind whoever is being targeted by injustice. Huh! Wow. OK, I've read you forever, old forums, this forum, your feed, your blog... this whole time I thought you were Black?! Thanks for the correction. Fwiw, people thought *I* was Black, in the other thread that got shut down. (And I suspect if they still thought that, that their replies would have been different... ) . Me. The quintessential white broad. Your correction standing, I meant every word of what I said that prompted your reply above. I respect you a helluva lot, and think over the years you've gotten way more hassle than you have deserved. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick0678 Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 25 minutes ago, Pussycat Catnap said: This is one for the German readers out there... He forgot to say that Germany was split for 4 decades till 1990 so one part was a U.S protectorate and being taught to be a good Capitalist while the other a Soviet protectorate and taught to be a good communist. It wasn't exactly a liberation, many atrocities happened by the occupant forces such as r*pes etc. According to German historians at least 400,000 children were fathered by troops after Christmas 1945. https://www.dw.com/en/troops-fathered-400000-children-in-post-war-germany/a-18237282 War was and always will be about power and influence , has nothing to do with liberating people, that's bullsh*t for the public to feel good and be motivated. American politicians and their relationships with the German(Nazi) politicians before the war were fine same way it was with all countries. Regarding racism and it's history on the U.S, well it's a country build on colonial lands founded by slave owners who declared it "the land of the free". Doesn't it sound like a paradox? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pussycat Catnap Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 (edited) 7 hours ago, Seicher Rae said: Your correction standing, I meant every word of what I said that prompted your reply above. I respect you a helluva lot, and think over the years you've gotten way more hassle than you have deserved. I'm trained in two professions that have an unusual way of approaching topics. Law and tech. Both adhere to the idea that you have 'loosely held passionate opinions'. In other words - argue to the end for a stance you stand for. Fiercely debate it. But then drop it like a lead weight if you find through analysis or debate that it is flawed. This is very unlike most people, who have the opposite stance: strongly held non-passionate opinions. Example: most people get very upset when you debate politics or religion or core beliefs. They turn against or shun people that challenge these, and lock down into a stance. This is human nature. Friction and discord are viewed as bad... and it doesn't matter if the objective is to find a greater truth. A lot of people are not good at telling the difference between a personal attack and even a questioning of a policy or opinion... Because to a lot of people these are the same things... But in Law and Tech - it is the friction and discord that you seek out, the argument that leads you to find corrections. The problem is that if most people find this deeply upsetting, when you live by it you can become toxicly unpopular... If you look at a lot of the hassle I get - it is attempts to shut me down. Or it is less than well developed short and blunt debunkings of my stance that... are not designed to engage for analysis, but to "show how wrong I am" in an attempt to dismiss me out of the conversation. That becomes obvious when these arguments also include levels of assigning blame or failure to me for not holding their stance... - If you actually want to debate, you discuss stance and ideas. Even if vehemently. Even if in anger... but you try to keep the other person interesting and wanting to talk with you, so you can see if their idea is possibly better than yours... NOT to disprove them... but to see if they can find ways to improve you. But it's rare when I get someone like that. Mostly I get people who either agree with me, or are dismissive of me (leading to that 'hassling' 😛 ) EDIT: On this notion of 'loosely held but passionately argued beliefs...' Some things I've journeyed through: Some months back when I first got a Belliserria Linden home I questioned some of the policies and asked about why it was scripted the way it was and asked if certain things could be added to surrounded areas. I was pretty strong worded on pushing for this - I picked a topic and argued out all my angles on it. Some people expressed extreme dismay and even felt I was getting personal and insulting towards the Lindens. I just wanted to see the rationale of choices, and see if the things I desired could be won over. When many of them were not, and good reasons for that were provided - I moved on. Settled - point dropped. I've since even defended some aspects of how the Linden Homes are set up that I had argued against. The same thing is currently happening for me in my conflict between mesh bodies. I've made an insane number of posts attacking Maitreya... so it might surprise some people that my current mesh body of choice is Maitreya... with their current version and a changing landscape vis-a-vis BOM, it was time to re-examine my stance, and so I flipped because my old stance was no longer correct. I was an extreme right-winger evangelical type in my early teens. The sort that would look at classmates in scorn and make lists of who'd bought a ticket on the elevator going down... It was actually the process of moving past this, and how that became the first moment in my life where the object of my attacks was my own worldview... that I first started getting on the 'loosely held but passionate' stance... A lot of folks make a journey into some kind of neo-paganism at that point - which I did, but then I went the other way again - that journey of analysis kept me moving until I explored it out in as much detail as I could and came back to my original faith but without the religious dogma. I was having a conversation today about why I like Malcolm X but don't care for MLK... It's because Malcolm, like Paul in the Bible... faced a moment and changed. Malcolm did it twice. Actually he did it four times... from good kid to criminal to black separatist to advocate for universal integration. Edited July 29, 2020 by Pussycat Catnap 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 (edited) I thought this was de-escalating but it's just getting worse....and I wonder how bad it will get leading up to the election, as he is trying to make people feel unsafe and vote for 'law and order': "An outside agitator is stirring up violent protest in the streets of Portland, Oregon. His hand is at work in Seattle; Oakland, California; and Los Angeles, too. This agent provocateur set out to inflame protests simmering in these cities by making sure that armed hordes were in their midst, and it has worked: Many more protesters are out on the streets, throwing bricks at law-enforcement officers and engaging in vandalism. Blocks of these cities have been engulfed in tear gas. Mayors are pleading for calm. When there’s upheaval like this, it’s sometimes hard to track down the culprit. But in this case it’s not hard to identify or find him: The outside agitator’s name is Donald Trump, and he lives at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue in Washington, D.C. The president’s aim in deploying federal agents to Portland and elsewhere was barely concealed from the start: Send federal forces into liberal cities where they are unwelcome, wait for trouble to start, and then use it as both retroactive justification and political leverage for the president’s troubled reelection campaign. It’s been a roaring success. The provocation has been so effective that the Trump administration is now preparing to send more federal agents to Portland, to tamp down the violence that has been inflamed by sending federal agents to Portland." More here: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/07/trump-getting-what-he-wants-portland/614635/ Edited July 28, 2020 by Luna Bliss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seicher Rae Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 2 hours ago, Pussycat Catnap said: I'm trained in two professions that have an unusual way of approaching topics. Law and tech. Both adhere to the idea that you have 'loosely held passionate opinions'. In other words - argue to the end for a stance you stand for. Fiercely debate it. But then drop it like a lead weight if you find through analysis or debate that it is flawed. This is very unlike most people, who have the opposite stance: strongly held non-passionate opinions. Example: most people get very upset when you debate politics or religion or core beliefs. They turn against or shun people that challenge these, and lock down into a stance. This is human nature. Friction and discord are viewed as bad... and it doesn't matter if the objective is to find a greater truth. A lot of people are not good at telling the difference between a personal attack and even a questioning of a policy or opinion... Because to a lot of people these are the same things... But in Law and Tech - it is the friction and discord that you seek out, the argument that leads you to find corrections. The problem is that if most people find this deeply upsetting, when you live by it you can become toxicly unpopular... If you look at a lot of the hassle I get - it is attempts to shut me down. Or it is less than well developed short and blunt debunkings of my stance that... are not designed to engage for analysis, but to "show how wrong I am" in an attempt to dismiss me out of the conversation. That becomes obvious when these arguments also include levels of assigning blame or failure to me for not holding their stance... - If you actually want to debate, you discuss stance and ideas. Even if vehemently. Even if in anger... but you try to keep the other person interesting and wanting to talk with you, so you can see if their idea is possibly better than yours... NOT to disprove them... but to see if they can find ways to improve you. But it's rare when I get someone like that. Mostly I get people who either agree with me, or are dismissive of me (leading to that 'hassling' 😛 ) Trying to remember if I've ever debated with you. I don't think so. If I did it was a loooooooooong time ago. I totally get what you're saying. And like you, I've found few willing to engage in actual discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arielle Popstar Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 White woman tries to convince a black woman that she's oppressed. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick0678 Posted July 29, 2020 Share Posted July 29, 2020 50 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said: White woman tries to convince a black woman that she's oppressed. Interesting video, i love her spirit and the way she expresses her arguments towards those white people. (VERY WHITE SKINNED to be fair for almost August) Also some of the protestors wearing jackets and blouses? Are they cold or something? Weird americans. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordyn McGregor Posted July 29, 2020 Share Posted July 29, 2020 8 hours ago, Luna Bliss said: It's good you are becoming woke though I will never be "woke" because I was never asleep. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted July 29, 2020 Share Posted July 29, 2020 2 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said: White woman tries to convince a black woman that she's oppressed. You do realize that's from the alt-right Breitbart News? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted July 29, 2020 Share Posted July 29, 2020 (edited) 33 minutes ago, Jordan Whitt said: 8 hours ago, Luna Bliss said: It's good you are becoming woke though I will never be "woke" because I was never asleep. Nobody is ever totally 'woke' -- I learn something new every day. Tonight I learned more about the inspiring Harriet Tubman and how she helped free slaves on the underground railroad during the period before the Civil War. Social injustice is a scourge upon the earth, and if not fought it can ruin lives or vastly limit potential for those oppressed. We all have to fight to be free, and if we can it's good help others who are having trouble too. * I recommend the movie, even though it had the Black bounty hunter. Fortunately he wasn't central as some reviews claimed, and it showed the real conditions of the period where White slavers were being the biggest villains. Edited July 29, 2020 by Luna Bliss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pussycat Catnap Posted July 29, 2020 Share Posted July 29, 2020 3 hours ago, Seicher Rae said: I totally get what you're saying. And like you, I've found few willing to engage in actual discussion. The best way to debate, even with people willing to change their minds with reflection... ... ...is to make sure people get that reflection. If you notice me suddenly vanish from this or that topic - it's because I know that if I don't the 'instinctive human behavior' wins out and I get an entrenched view I don't want to debate, just want to cling to... By stepping out I am trying to give myself and hopefully someone else... the time to cool off and think it all through. Again... some people view that as cowardice or conceding or refusing to admit I was wrong or whatever other negative emotion they can ascribe to it... But it is really about cooling myself down so I can seriously think through my stance, digest the arguments against my stance, and see if I need self adjusting or at the least, a new approach that better expresses what I wanted to communicate rather than what was I actually saying... (it's very hard for people to see the difference in these things for themselves AND for others... so you usually need to step back and reflect to be able to see that what you wanted to say and what you did say don't match up... human beings are almost never able to see that when in the 'thick of battle'...). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pussycat Catnap Posted July 29, 2020 Share Posted July 29, 2020 36 minutes ago, Jordan Whitt said: I will never be "woke" because I was never asleep. I find I need to keep pinching myself or I risk falling asleep. 😉 Getting old... starting to see kids that need to get off my lawn... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akane Nacht Posted July 29, 2020 Share Posted July 29, 2020 20 hours ago, Mollymews said: it is substantially different from an international perspective. Coloured was a description of people with mixed white and non-white parentage. Used in countries like Apartheid South Africa formally. And used colloquially throughout the British Empire back in the day a person of colour is all those who are not white, in whole or part i don't mind when somebody who doesn't know me personally categorises me as a person of colour in a discussion about race. Is better than being categorised as non-white Sorry, I still don't really see the difference. I personally don't like broad-brush categories, especially based on physical appearance. I don't even like blonde jokes! 😛 If others are ok with this label, that's their call. I'm not the boss of anyone but me. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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