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27 minutes ago, Janet Voxel said:

Story time! Who wants to hear a story?

A few years ago, before I got married, I was dating a guy. It was a nice spring day, much like this one. The sun was going down, we're walking down the street, holding hands, it was very scenic. He was taking pictures of me with a digital camera, it was just a good time. We get to a corner, three police cars box us in, the officers jump out with their guns drawn. I throw my hands up, obviously confused. He throws his hands up but he has a silver camera strapped to his hand and a cell phone, this is a problem. He was trying to be calm, I remember him saying "There's a camera strapped to my hand. Its just a camera, but I can't drop it." That's when I realized how much more serious this was and could potentially get much worse. The police officers are screaming, I started crying. He lets go of the camera. It falls out of his hand and is dangling there, strapped to his wrist. His phone clatters to the sidewalk. I remember that moment because all of the police officers audibly gasped. I thought he was going to get shot. 

They rush him, throw him up against the wall, pat him down and cuff him. At this point I'm crying hysterically, saying "What's going on? What did he do?" They tell me to step back, they put him in a squad car and drive off. Now I'm standing there, confused, angry, hurt, sad...all at the same time. Everything happened so fast, I really didn't know what to do. I couldn't call him, his phone was on the ground broken. Should I go to the police station? Which one? How was I getting home? He was my ride. How was I going to get home? Was I dating a criminal?

I decide to get his phone and take a cab to the nearest precinct. As I get the the main street, I see him walking up the street...free. He tells me what happened: They throw him in the cop car and ask him what he was doing. He tells them he was on a date and walking down the street with his girlfriend. They ask him what was on the camera, he tells them "Pictures of my girlfriend." They ask, "Mind if we take a look?" He says sure go ahead. They look through his camera, there's pictures of me from that afternoon and his kids (he was an elementary school teacher). The younger cop says, "I...don't think its him." The older cop says..."Lets just see to make sure." They pull into a gas station, pull him out of the car. "Is this him?" The gas station attendant says "....No." They uncuff him and offer him a ride back. He declined and walks back to me.

This was a true story and any sane person can see all of the things wrong with what happened. This is a reality for some people in this country, not just some times....every day. Imagine if he got shot? Imagine the gas station attendant said it WAS him? They drew guns then questioned him. Life. Every.Day.

 

It's stories like this that make me realize I'm wholly unqualified to speak on the matter, as there's nothing in my protected white life that has ever caused me to experience anything like that. :( But I can still listen. And I heard you. And I thank you for telling your story here, the trolls despite.

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3 hours ago, Blake1111Coverdale said:

After a short while of attacks yes I stopped being nice and respectful and began dishing the crap right back at my attackers.

Fighting fire with fire just burns everything to the ground.

3 hours ago, Blake1111Coverdale said:

Since when is it wrong to defend yourself? Or is it only ok to defend yourself now if your a woman ?

There's a difference between putting up a defense and becoming defensive.

3 hours ago, Blake1111Coverdale said:

I was already wound up from these morons attacking me and your meme was a challenge to me saying bring it on.

Being wound up by "morons" is not a good look on anyone. There are also no morons here.

3 hours ago, Blake1111Coverdale said:

I dont expect you to understand that, it is how males think and process things.

That is how you think and process things. I've lived with men for 3/5 of my life (father and ex husband). They processed things quite differently than you have here.

3 hours ago, Blake1111Coverdale said:

But I apologize to ya for getting you head on over a simple meme.

That's a step in the right direction!

3 hours ago, Blake1111Coverdale said:

As for women defending anyones rights, yes there are women in the military, and they are important. But I believe you are taking my words out of context.
In American military most women serve in non combat jobs. Doctor, nurse, administration, dental, logistics, etc etc... even non combat unit pilots. All of these jobs women fill are important to the military support infrastructure and these women should receive credit and respect for their contribution to our nation. However, women generally are not assigned to  most combat units so very few actually fight to defend anyones rights. Not tens of thousands as you purport.. Maybe that is why I stated the words military men who fight to defend. This is just a fact, not me discounting women in military. As for you correcting me, produce facts with solid evidence that anything I stated in my post is not fact and completely inaccurate. If you can do that I will respect the truthfulness of what you present as we are all here to learn and grow... not reject peoples facts because they shatter our opinions and belief systems.  One last thing, everything Im writing to you here now Im writing respectfully and with sincereity. Not with sarcasm or ill will. I hope you can do the same for me if you reply. Take care.

The fact that women have not been allowed full participation in the US military should not detract from the value of the service they are allowed to give. By your reasoning, a general back at HQ, who is not in a combat unit, has no more right to claim he's defending the Constitution than a mess cook at a reserve base in Wisconsin.

I'm in agreement with your desire to see bad police practice abolished, with blame for the creation of those practices distributed all the way up the chain of command. But that's only a part of the grand problem here. There's a long history of systemic racism behind the application of bad police practice and I doubt either of us has significant expertise there. That puts you on the same level as the rest of us in discussion of those aspects of the issue.

Edited by Madelaine McMasters
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30 minutes ago, kali Wylder said:

Don't feel bad, I had no idea who she was before either.  I'm learning more all the time.  Still haven't actually listened to her sing, but that's ok, I'm not particularly fond of country music.

groucho.gif

She's not been country for quite a while. Although her latest "album" goes back to some of her roots a bit.

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22 hours ago, Beth Macbain said:

Tamir Rice 2014, Eric Garner 2014, Alton Sterling 2016, Philando Castile 2016, Michael Brown, 2014, .Sandra Bland, 2015

6 incidences over the past 6 years hardly prove a pattern of systemic racism.

Of course I know there are others. between 2013 and 2019 approximately 1000 unarmed people died from police harm, and about a third of them were black, a dis-proportionally high number. It has already been pointed out however that a dis-proportionally high number does not mean that racism is at work. Blacks make up a dis-proportionally high number of Covid 19 cases, but this does not mean the virus is somehow racist. It means there are cultural factors that make blacks more susceptible. 

In the same way cultural factors can lead to a higher number of black victims of violence. The same poverty that can contribute to Covid 19 exposure also can contribute to trouble with the police. Impoverished neighborhoods tend to be high crime areas which puts the police on edge making it more likely that they go to far. The rhetoric of the BLM movement as well can contribute to issues. When blacks are told that the police are out to kill them, they are more likely to resist the police or attempt to flee from them. Both of these greatly increase the odds of a situation developing that results in someone being killed.

What about the 2/3rds of unarmed people killed by the police who are not black? You are naive if you think that the police are held accountable for them. The police have always "taken care of their own". It was pointed out that the officers involved in George Floyd's death were changed after the story made national news and people began to protest. What happens when the victim is white and no one cares? If you truly want equal justice for all this would concern you. We hear about cases where the victim is black, but 2 out of 3 cases the ,victim is not black, why don't we hear about these cases?

Police brutally is a problem in America, it is not a problem for just one particular group, we are all at risk. As the police are increasingly militarized they increasing see their role as warriors and not as peacekeepers. We need to abandon the rhetoric of exclusion and start to unite together to turn our nation back towards a path towards peace and understanding for everyone.

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Oh, look how he was wrestled, tackled to the ground and lived, and his hand so close to his gun, no less.  His life obviously matters.  (I forgot I was going to post this so many pages ago, and decided to save my sanity... but, there it is anyway.  I guess it wanted to be posted.

 

59 minutes ago, Janet Voxel said:

Story time! Who wants to hear a story?

A few years ago, before I got married, I was dating a guy. It was a nice spring day, much like this one. The sun was going down, we're walking down the street, holding hands, it was very scenic. He was taking pictures of me with a digital camera, it was just a good time. We get to a corner, three police cars box us in, the officers jump out with their guns drawn. I throw my hands up, obviously confused. He throws his hands up but he has a silver camera strapped to his hand and a cell phone, this is a problem. He was trying to be calm, I remember him saying "There's a camera strapped to my hand. Its just a camera, but I can't drop it." That's when I realized how much more serious this was and could potentially get much worse. The police officers are screaming, I started crying. He lets go of the camera. It falls out of his hand and is dangling there, strapped to his wrist. His phone clatters to the sidewalk. I remember that moment because all of the police officers audibly gasped. I thought he was going to get shot. 

They rush him, throw him up against the wall, pat him down and cuff him. At this point I'm crying hysterically, saying "What's going on? What did he do?" They tell me to step back, they put him in a squad car and drive off. Now I'm standing there, confused, angry, hurt, sad...all at the same time. Everything happened so fast, I really didn't know what to do. I couldn't call him, his phone was on the ground broken. Should I go to the police station? Which one? How was I getting home? He was my ride. How was I going to get home? Was I dating a criminal?

I decide to get his phone and take a cab to the nearest precinct. As I get the the main street, I see him walking up the street...free. He tells me what happened: They throw him in the cop car and ask him what he was doing. He tells them he was on a date and walking down the street with his girlfriend. They ask him what was on the camera, he tells them "Pictures of my girlfriend." They ask, "Mind if we take a look?" He says sure go ahead. They look through his camera, there's pictures of me from that afternoon and his kids (he was an elementary school teacher). The younger cop says, "I...don't think its him." The older cop says..."Lets just see to make sure." They pull into a gas station, pull him out of the car. "Is this him?" The gas station attendant says "....No." They uncuff him and offer him a ride back. He declined and walks back to me.

This was a true story and any sane person can see all of the things wrong with what happened. This is a reality for some people in this country, not just some times....every day. Imagine if he got shot? Imagine the gas station attendant said it WAS him? They drew guns then questioned him. Life. Every.Day.

I'm sorry you went through that.    It's funny how the "all lives matters" people will answer this with something like, "Well if he didn't do anything, he had nothing to worry about."   They can also ask the cops "What is this about" and be told.  They can also reach in their pocket for their wallet and not have the assumption be that they were going for a weapon.

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I've taken a break from reading/replying to this topic.

At one point I snapped at someone and called their views racist, I just wanted to say I'm sorry for doing that.

I'm actually afraid to go read through the posts to see who it was incase I read something that makes me mad again. Pretty silly right?

Well, that's me pulling out of this thread for now. Maybe I'll read when things are not so stressful irl and i have a level head :s

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6 hours ago, Gatogateau said:

If ever there was a time and thread for your voice, this would be it. Since when do you care if you piss anyone off?

These forums are very PG and how I feel about everything is not so PG. Plus, it’s also not politically correct and I will be honest to say my experiences RL or online with whites and other non-blacks have been awful. Period. I remember being in Jacksonville, FL with my big sister. We we’re riding around and a [white] cop pulled us over for the tail light being out. But, his demeanor came off bigoted. You can feel when someone hates you. I was already in fear because I remembered what happened to Philando Castro. I remembered what happened to Trayvon Martin. I remembered what happened to so many black people before that. I didn’t want to be another black girl killed by the hands of a police officer or non-black person and be stereotyped or have the media trash my name. 
 

I’ve experienced racism ever since I was a little girl. I remembered being called the n-word to my freaking face by someone I had considered to be my best friend. I remembered being denied jobs or opportunities simply because I checked ‘black’ on an application even when I was qualified. I remember my sister having a white police officer pull a gun on her during a domestic violence situation when she was the ONE WHO CALLED FOR HELP. THEY DON’T give a damn about our lives. Period. I remember being left racist hate comments in my inbox back when I used to be on deviantART and Tumblr. I am used to being followed in a store because people assume I’m going to steal or think I have little money. When my dad died, the white ambulance had a freaking smirk on their faces. I am used to non-blacks talk down to me like I’m an idiot because they feel they’re superior or think I know nothing when I know so much. And, quite frankly I’m sick and tired of it. Apart of me even felt the same hate towards non-blacks a white supremacist would feel for me. But, I knew all that hatred wasn’t healthy.

To see my people being continually dragged and to see people have the nerve to talk about other countries and what they deal with...when we can’t even get our country together sickens me. This country has no right in policing others when this is the same country that had four white supremacists bomb a church and killed four little black girls. The same country where a white supremacist kills 9 church members who welcomed him in with open arms. The same country who voted in a racist and fascist president because his entire campaign was based on hatred and violence. 
 

This country was NEVER integrated. We were assimilated. We were desegregated. But NEVER truly integrated. 

Edited by Ashlyn Voir
PG edit.
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3 minutes ago, Nadia Chatterbox said:

Oh, look how he was wrestled, tackled to the ground and lived, and his hand so close to his gun, no less.  His life obviously matters.  (I forgot I was going to post this so many pages ago, and decided to save my sanity... but, there it is anyway.  I guess it wanted to be posted.

 

I'm sorry you went through that.    It's funny how the "all lives matters" people will answer this with something like, "Well if he didn't do anything, he had nothing to worry about."   They can also ask the cops "What is this about" and be told.  They can also reach in their pocket for their wallet and not have the assumption be that they were going for a weapon.

It's good that people get it and understand. It's frustrating just trying to explain how far reaching it is and it's not just about cops killing black people, its not just how it affects one's psyche. The same people that don't get it would be the same people that show up armed protesting because they were told to quarantine for a couple of months screaming about freedom and rights....and not even seeing how ironic they're being.  

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Alrighty, now that I've gone ahead and cleared out some not so pleasant posts from this thread I wanted to drop a quick note here.

As many of you have seen me say several times before, delving into back and forth bickering, personal attacks, flaming, etc is not welcome on the forums. If you have an issue with another user on the forums you either have the option of taking it elsewhere, or using that handy dandy Ignore feature.

Comments targeted towards individuals that can be construed as harassment or personal attacks, especially ones that contain racist, sexist, and other inappropriate remarks will not be tolerated here. Especially in a thread such as this about unfortunate current events in the world. You don't have to agree with each other, and you don't even have to like each other, but you do need to remain respectful and civil to others that use this forum.

Thank you to those who are continuing to use this thread for it's intended purpose of discussing these this sensitive topic, and for showing support for those in need in a time where we need to be kind to our fellow hoomans on this weird little ball of dirt in space.

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31 minutes ago, Talligurl said:

6 incidences over the past 6 years hardly prove a pattern of systemic racism.

The United States was built on systematic racism that continues to this day. This is an indisputable fact and there is no valid argument against it. It goes beyond policing and permeates every aspect of society. The first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem. We have a problem, and it's a whole lot more than bad, unaccountable cops.

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55 minutes ago, Ashlyn Voir said:

Noted: Edited slightly by the cat for "compliance" reasons:

These forums are very PG and how I feel about everything is not so PG. Plus, it’s also not politically correct and I will be honest to say my experiences RL or online with whites and other non-blacks have been awful. Period. I remember being in Jacksonville, FL with my big sister. We we’re riding around and a [white] cop pulled us over for the tail light being out. But, his demeanor came off bigoted. You can feel when someone hates you. I was already in fear because I remembered what happened to Philando Castro. I remembered what happened to Trayvon Martin. I remembered what happened to so many black people before that. I didn’t want to be another black girl killed by the hands of a police officer or non-black person and be stereotyped or have the media trash my name. 
 

I’ve experienced racism ever since I was a little girl. I remembered being called the n-word to my freaking face by someone I had considered to be my best friend. I remembered being denied jobs or opportunities simply because I checked ‘black’ on an application even when I was qualified. I remember my sister having a white police officer pull a gun on her during a domestic violence situation when she was the ONE WHO CALLED FOR HELP. THEY DON’T give a damn about our lives. Period. I remember being left racist hate comments in my inbox back when I used to be on deviantART and Tumblr. I am used to being followed in a store because people assume I’m going to steal or think I have little money. When my dad died, the white ambulance had a freaking smirk on their faces. I am used to non-blacks talk down to me like I’m an idiot because they feel they’re superior or think I know nothing when I know so much. And, quite frankly I’m sick and tired of it. Apart of me even felt the same hate towards non-blacks a white supremacist would feel for me. But, I knew all that hatred wasn’t healthy.

To see my people being continually dragged and to see people have the nerve to talk about other countries and what they deal with...when we can’t even get our crap together sickens me. This country has no right in policing others when this is the same country that had four white supremacists bomb a church and killed four little black girls. The same country where a white supremacist kills 9 church members who welcomed him in with open arms. The same country who voted in a racist and fascist president because his entire campaign was based on hatred and violence. 
 

This country was NEVER integrated. We were assimilated. We were desegregated. But NEVER truly integrated. 

I'm glad you chose to share your story. I don't like you, and you don't like me, and that has had zero to do with race (and I honestly did not know what your race is). Reading this, though, gives me some insight on why you might have thought it was. You DO have a story, and honestly? Reading it in the context of all that is going on? Maybe I don't like you any better, but I think I understand you a little better... which is NOT to say I know how you are feeling, because I don't.  I get that. I think you'll see a lot of not-black-people here "get" that we don't *know* what you've been through, but we truly want that endless crap, that ingrained hatred and brutality to stop.

I think your story is important. For that reason here' a gentle hint, take out the words with the *** in them asap. Spell out something that's "ok" and PG, because things are getting ARd. I don't want your story to be ARd, truly. 

Edited by Gatogateau
words in stupid order
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48 minutes ago, Janet Voxel said:

It's good that people get it and understand. It's frustrating just trying to explain how far reaching it is and it's not just about cops killing black people, its not just how it affects one's psyche. The same people that don't get it would be the same people that show up armed protesting because they were told to quarantine for a couple of months screaming about freedom and rights....and not even seeing how ironic they're being.  

This is so much the problem, so what on Earth do we do about it. There are a lot of good, decent, not-black people out here who want things to change. For blacks and others. You're so right, it is the same people who show up at armed to protest the plague. We probably all know people, of all races, who we could talk to until we're blue in the face, we could present them with facts, reference material, charts and graphs... all to no avail. And what do we do about that? When it is so ingrained that for some, logic doesn't apply? Yet there are still people who claim systemic racism does not exist (as you know), people who can watch that horrible video of the murder of Mr. Floyd and still come to another conclusion. 

I do hope this time is different. I do hope we've pushed the stuck wheel of justice hard enough to overcome the inertia. I hope we keep it up to get the Racist in Chief out. But those same people who don't think a billion school shootings a year is worth discussing sensible gun legislation and so nothing changes there and so the shootings keep coming so often that we lose count, are the same people who don't budge on racial issues, and people keep getting brutalized and we lose count.

I realize I asked a lot of questions that there aren't easy (or any?) answers to. I just feel so darned...useless. I see it. I hate it. I want it change. I try to keep it out of my life by acting and believing accordingly. But like... big whoop?

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1 hour ago, Talligurl said:

Blacks make up a dis-proportionally high number of Covid 19 cases, but this does not mean the virus is somehow racist. It means there are cultural factors that make blacks more susceptible.

Absolutely right!  This is just a kind of FYI post for further information.  COVID-19 is not racist but it is discriminatory.  However, many viruses are discriminatory especially towards those of age, pre-existing conditions, and other situational factors that may arise from racism itself.   Stress is thought to be a factor in COVID-19 deaths and our Black brothers and sisters may have suffered more stress and/or a life time of stress as compared to those of say Caucasian birth.  IOW, Caucasians are thought to lead far less stressful lives or to be put under less stress in general than our Black brothers and sisters.  However, it appears COVID-19 is affecting other POC such as Middle Easterners for example along with others more so than Caucasians as well.  Other risk factors may include a poorer diet and lack of appropriate health care for POC as compared to those of Caucasian descent which stems from racism and/or discrimination.  

If we are high risk, we need to take precautions and the media does need to do a better job at reporting so people's loved ones, families and friends stay safe during this pandemic.  

I am worried for the protesters with the lax of social distancing and lack of media coverage on 'how to' stay safe and what are the high risk factors, and the media needs to tell the truth and not pussyfoot around.  

 

 

Edited by FairreLilette
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1 hour ago, Nadia Chatterbox said:

It's funny how the "all lives matters" people will answer this with something like, "Well if he didn't do anything, he had nothing to worry about."

Nope, I personally know someone who had a very similar experience. In his case the crime victim said he did it. Fortunately for him, the real criminal left fingerprints and they didn't match his, though it took 48 hours in jail to figure this out. The police are out of control, and we all should be worried, not doing anything is no guarantee you will be OK.

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14 minutes ago, Gatogateau said:

I'm glad you chose to share your story. I don't like you, and you don't like me, and that has had zero to do with race (and I honestly did not know what your race is). Reading this, though, gives me some insight on why you might have thought it was. You DO have a story, and honestly? Reading it in the context of all that is going on? Maybe I don't like you any better, but I think I understand you a little better... which is NOT to say I know how you are feeling, because I don't.  I get that. I think you'll see a lot of not-black-people here "get" that we don't *know* what you've been through, but we truly want that endless crap, that ingrained hatred and brutality to stop.

I think your story is important. For that reason here' a gentle hint, take out the words with the *** in them asap. Spell out something that's "ok" and PG, because things are getting ARd. I don't want your story to be ARd, truly. 

Whether or not you like me isn’t an issue. A lot of people don’t. But, I think these series of events has shown this country has never really left 1619.

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Just now, Ashlyn Voir said:

Whether or not you like me isn’t an issue. A lot of people don’t. But, I think these series of events has shown this country has never really left 1619.

You're absolutely right, this has nothing to do with "other stuff." You're also right that for some people it is still 1619 and slaves are still on the block. I do hope, though, that you see that it isn't every single white person. I kind of get why you might think it is, based on your words. There's a lot of "us" out here who want the bigots gone and the crap to stop.

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How many experiences like @Janet Voxel's go unreported? People who demand to show them where the racism is always want to see the data. In order to listen they need data from a system that doesn't have or want to keep that data. Systematic much?

Now add in all the other experiences someone goes through like some of @Ashlyn Voir's that don't even involve the police. 

It would just compound in my brain and make me want to explode! 🧨

Thank you for sharing your experiences!

Thank you @Kristin Linden for allowing the conversation to continue.

Edited by Evah Baxton
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20 minutes ago, Gatogateau said:

You're absolutely right, this has nothing to do with "other stuff." You're also right that for some people it is still 1619 and slaves are still on the block. I do hope, though, that you see that it isn't every single white person. I kind of get why you might think it is, based on your words. There's a lot of "us" out here who want the bigots gone and the crap to stop.

 

10 minutes ago, Evah Baxton said:

How many experiences like @Janet Voxel's go unreported? People who demand to show them where the racism is always want to see the data. In order to listen they need data from a system that doesn't have or want to keep that data. Systematic much?

Now add in all the other experiences someone goes through like some of @Ashlyn Voir's that don't even involve the police. 

It would just compound in my brain and make me want to explode! 🧨

Thank you for sharing your experiences!

Thank you @Kristin Linden for allowing the conversation to continue.

As my mom says, racism is passed down from generation to generation. It will never go away. I’m slowly trying to open the idea to trying to trust other races again, but it’s a learning process. When I see people like even Breonna Taylor or Atatiana Jefferson...I get angry. When I see black girls and women getting beaten and killed by not only police, but racist civilians...I get angry. 
 

I’ve noticed a lot of people especially on Twitter bringing straw man arguments in this whole ordeal talking about black on black crime and such, but what people don’t realize is how a lot of that stems from systemic racism and being made to hate ourselves. We have to remember there are still old people alive who went through Jim Crow and a lot of those [racist] people still have influence over the country and its people. So, I mean realistically it might never ago away. 

Edited by Ashlyn Voir
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1 hour ago, Ashlyn Voir said:

I remember being in Jacksonville, FL with my big sister. We we’re riding around and a [white] cop pulled us over for the tail light being out. But, his demeanor came off bigoted. You can feel when someone hates you. I was already in fear because I remembered what happened to Philando Castro. I remembered what happened to Trayvon Martin. I remembered what happened to so many black people before that. I didn’t want to be another black girl killed by the hands of a police officer or non-black person and be stereotyped or have the media trash my name. 
 

I’ve experienced racism ever since I was a little girl. I remembered being called the n-word to my freaking face by someone I had considered to be my best friend. I remembered being denied jobs or opportunities simply because I checked ‘black’ on an application even when I was qualified. I remember my sister having a white police officer pull a gun on her during a domestic violence situation when she was the ONE WHO CALLED FOR HELP. THEY DON’T give a damn about our lives. Period. I remember being left racist hate comments in my inbox back when I used to be on deviantART and Tumblr. I am used to being followed in a store because people assume I’m going to steal or think I have little money. When my dad died, the white ambulance had a freaking smirk on their faces. I am used to non-blacks talk down to me like I’m an idiot because they feel they’re superior or think I know nothing when I know so much. And, quite frankly I’m sick and tired of it. Apart of me even felt the same hate towards non-blacks a white supremacist would feel for me. But, I knew all that hatred wasn’t healthy.

Ashlyn, thank you so much for sharing this.

Your perspective and your experiences really matter. I want to think -- I very much hope -- that they are making a difference.

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