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3 hours ago, Innula Zenovka said:

Unfortunately, it seems the various police unions are (or can be) a great obstacle to reform

IMO, the police unions are a HUGE obstacle to reform - one of the primary reasons various locales have difficulty changing policies and passing reform laws.

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Not as such, no. We don't really have that kind of thing here as, well, our law enforcement seldom gun down people - and whilst I obviously do not condone of it, I'm hesitant to give my 'official' (i.

Alrighty, now that I've gone ahead and cleared out some not so pleasant posts from this thread I wanted to drop a quick note here. As many of you have seen me say several times before, delving in

Thank you for this.   Black woman here.  Of A Certain Age.  I have my BLM shirt.   For whatever that means. (freewheeling it here, went from wanting to say something to not wanting to say anythi

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2 hours ago, Uneven said:

Pet Peeve -- Folks that post twitter links rather than screenshots.  I am restricted from all social media sites at work, so have to send these sorts of links to myself in email so that I remember to check them when I get home.  Then, in some cases, the threads get closed because of flaming, etc... and I've lost my chance to respond,

 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Dano Seale said:

You find them "scary" Fairre? Basically, they're no more scary than the very rich folk who populate your own State

And, yes, they are scary because of the Church of England.  Why should American's have to care about "purifying the Queen's church"?  It's archaic.  America needs to break free from this.  The Episcopalian's did.  Thankfully.  Thankfully.  I do not care about "purifying the Queen's church".  It's ridiculous and against our United States Constitution.  Too many of them in bed together as we say in America, which means they are hypocrites exchanging monies.  

Edited by FairreLilette
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10 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:
17 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Slums are a result of inequality and racism, not a cause. ffs

Exactly.

Yes, but the world needs to overcome the slums because it does and it needs to be a global effort.   It's a vicious circle and people need to be elevated out of them unto a better life.    

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13 hours ago, Gatogateau said:

I realize I asked a lot of questions that there aren't easy (or any?) answers to. I just feel so darned...useless. I see it. I hate it. I want it change. I try to keep it out of my life by acting and believing accordingly. But like... big whoop?

Don’t feel useless. I can’t pretend I have all the answers or any real answers. But you and everybody that spoke up even in a thread like this, you’ve done something.
 

Just opening your mouth when you see something wrong is doing something. Keeping an open mind when looking at things is doing something. You’re talking about systemic change, but how many people know what all of the laws are that need changing? Where do we begin with that? We literally watched years of progress rolled back in 3.5 years. That’s insane!

A good place to start is checking your state’s voting laws. Is voter suppression a thing in your state? Where I am, the polls are literally across the street. I know there are states where they are purging minorities off voter rolls. There’s places where the polling site is a 30-40 minute drive away, then you have to wait 3 hours to vote. Things like that are unthinkable in other countries, but are a reality here disproportionately for minorities. 
 

This man has to go, he’s empowered so many bad things. A start is getting him out!

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Posted (edited)

It's an interesting question, "Why is there racism"? I've always thought at its base it's a way to deal with the pain of life -- we need someone below us to scapegoat as 'the bad one' and feel 'better than' -- the 'othering' that makes us feel we are the good ones. In other words, the ones 'at the bottom' are our shadow selves.

Umair Haque, a UK based writer I've been following, has an interesting take on racism in America:

Speaking of Americans he says:

"If they’re not the bravest, freest, strongest, toughest, smartest, and so on, in the world, they can’t handle it. So they have to project all the parts of themselves they can’t bear onto another group, someone powerless. Racism is always just a projection of the unwanted parts of ourselves. Laziness, ignorance, stupidity, violence, greed, and so on. Those are all the things they can’t possibly be.”

Minorities have been white America’s scapegoats. They’re the — the receptacles of all its hidden fears and anxieties about itself. All the things it can’t admit to itself it really is. Like greedy when it just took America from the natives, or violent when it enslaved and segregated blacks, or ignorant and foolish even now, when it votes against its very own better healthcare and retirement and pensions.”

https://eand.co/why-america-is-so-hateful-4ef03915e156

Edited by Luna Bliss
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17 hours ago, Aethelwine said:
On 6/4/2020 at 7:51 AM, Derek Torvalar said:

ETA Terms like this one, for Aethelwine.

https://newdiscourses.com/tftw-antiracism/

Whilst the website looks nice, the use of pejoratives throughout its discussions detracts from any argument they are making.

It seems just to be a new flavour of the old "cultural marxism" conspiracy theory that used to be popular back 20 years or so ago. The sites rhetoric appeals to conservative anti-intellectualism, and self interest rather than logic, or any engagement with wider experiences. Critical Race Theory, is an interesting topic and one reason it is so widely studied at Universities and Colleges. It isn't a bogey man to be afraid of.

What is scarier to me than certain types of people who are unable to acknowledge that we even have an unconscious mind influencing race relations, are the types you refer to here, and the 'Jordan Peterson's' who actually believe the stratification of society with a class on the bottom is just!

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30 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

Exactly.

 

It's really lovely to see you here, Innula! I've been keeping half on eye on the VVO thread, and I've really admired your contributions there.

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, FairreLilette said:

I would not want to live under them in any way as the salaries for Dukes, etc...is way too much tax payer money. 

I checked on the salaries of their Parliament folks - it is apparently 79,468 British Pounds.  That equates to US $101,122.50.

Out Congress folks are paid $174,000 for normal Congress members and up to $223,500 for the leader positions:

image.png.09ba7c431d2b81b4a9aebded3aee6f3e.png

 

Those figures, for the UK Parliament and the US Congress, do not include the extra money they get to maintain their offices, employ staff, travel to & from the Capital, etc...

So our Congress folks are paid quite a bit more than theirs, so even more tax money on our side of the pond. 

IMO, the salaries our our Congress members should be reduced quite a bit.

 

 

13 hours ago, FairreLilette said:

The U.S. has it's rag-mags too but the press doesn't hunt people down like the rag-mags in Britain do. 

My understanding, from reading interviews with US celebrities, our rag-mags hound them pretty much as often as the Britain ones hound folks over there.  Princess Diana was a bit of an exception, in that she was apparently hounded a bit more than the usual.

 

 

13 hours ago, FairreLilette said:

I've also seen on TV, that England has it's poorer sections of towns where people live in trailers in unsanitary conditions, especially Middle Easterners.  

I'm not really sure what point this statement is making, since we most definitely have plenty of similar living conditions in many, many areas of the US.

 

Edited by LittleMe Jewell
darn grammar thing again
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4 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

It's really lovely to see you here, Innula! I've been keeping half on eye on the VVO thread, and I've really admired your contributions there.

Agreed. Innula is one of the quiet folks I'd love to hear more from.

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11 hours ago, Paul Hexem said:

This is what bothers me. Police out of control.

Even if we solve racism tomorrow, the police are still in charge of policing themselves- which they almost never do. The system that enables the abuse is still in place, and people will still be abused, mistreated, and killed.

In some ways you are correct --- in many areas of the country the police are out of control.   There are multiple underlying causes, but just like solving the race issue will not solve the problem of the power-hungry control-freak cops, the reverse is also true. Each underlying issue has to be tackled individually.

 

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Posted (edited)

I think The Police have been a direct result of the fascism that permeates "the church", the Anglican church and it's influence on American churches.  If only people knew and would speak out against this.  America needs to break free from the fascist Anglican Church of England in order to really take back our freedoms and our understanding of Jesus in how Jesus excluded no one.  No one.  Not to mention Jesus said the law was too big a burden to place on us when the hypocrites weren't even following it either but rather sentencing us.  Our repentance should be thought of us to love, to not love should be the sin.  

K. off of soap box now.  But, I don't know if we can change one form of fascism without changing the others.  

Edited by FairreLilette
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13 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said:

 

 

I was 33 that year and remember the riots well. That was also the year I got married (in December). I'm also not white in case you didn't pick up on that.

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5 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

I think The Police have been a direct result of the fascism that permeates "the church", the Anglican church and it's influence on American churches.  If only people knew and would speak out against this.  America needs to break free from the fascist Anglican Church of England in order to really take back our freedoms and our understanding of Jesus in how Jesus excluded no one.  No one.  Not to mention Jesus said the law was too big a burden to place on us when the hypocrites weren't even following it either but rather sentencing us.  Our repentance should be thought of us to love, to not love should be the sin.  

K. off of soap box now.  But, I don't know if we can change one form of fascism without changing the others.  

I don't know much about the Anglican church, but you bring up an interesting area for possible discussion -- what role do various religious denominations play in the racism we see in America today?

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

I think The Police have been a direct result of the fascism that permeates "the church", the Anglican church and it's influence on American churches.  If only people knew and would speak out against this.  America needs to break free from the fascist Anglican Church of England in order to really take back our freedoms and our understanding of Jesus in how Jesus excluded no one.  No one.  

think you seriously need a reality check, Anglican church is one of the most progressive classic denominations on the world.

Edited by Alwin Alcott
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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:
11 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

I think The Police have been a direct result of the fascism that permeates "the church", the Anglican church and it's influence on American churches.  If only people knew and would speak out against this.  America needs to break free from the fascist Anglican Church of England in order to really take back our freedoms and our understanding of Jesus in how Jesus excluded no one.  No one.  

*** a very obnoxious comment ***

Alwin, I once received a suspension for a similar type of comment comment, although not even serious about it as you are....I advise you to remove yours so that you don't get one.

Edited by Luna Bliss
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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Paul Hexem said:

This is what bothers me. Police out of control.

Even if we solve racism tomorrow, the police are still in charge of policing themselves- which they almost never do. The system that enables the abuse is still in place, and people will still be abused, mistreated, and killed.

I'm rather concerned about how policing reform in the USA might be managed.

In the UK, because our system of government is far more centralised than is that of the USA, the government can both pass laws relating to police powers, the treatment of prisoners in custody, and so on, and also work with the Association of Chief Police Officers and other local and national stakeholders, to put together national policies, standards and guidance on policing and police training, which are then implemented locally. 

They're able to do this with specific matters such as guidance on the use of various forms of restraint (restraining suspects in the prone position on the ground is flagged as a particularly dangerous practice, because of the danger of  asphyxia, and suspects must be allowed to sit or stand as soon as they are subdued, for example) and on far more general issues such as institutional racism (particularly in the light of the Macpherson Report into the investigation of the racist murder of the black teenager Stephen Lawrence -- https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/feb/22/macpherson-report-what-was-it-and-what-impact-did-it-have).

I'm not saying we've got it right in the UK -- far, far from it -- but at least the levers are all there for Government to start pulling to make things happen on the street and in local police stations.  

Are there equivalent structures and mechanisms there to make that sort of thing happen, be it at the national or the state level?

Edited by Innula Zenovka
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14 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

I think The Police have been a direct result of the fascism that permeates "the church", the Anglican church and it's influence on American churches.  If only people knew and would speak out against this.  America needs to break free from the fascist Anglican Church of England in order to really take back our freedoms and our understanding of Jesus in how Jesus excluded no one.  No one.  Not to mention Jesus said the law was too big a burden to place on us when the hypocrites weren't even following it either but rather sentencing us.  Our repentance should be thought of us to love, to not love should be the sin.  

K. off of soap box now.  But, I don't know if we can change one form of fascism without changing the others.  

You are dangerously clueless. Stop talking about things you know less than nothing about.

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Too much pain and tension in the thread, so it needs someone to scapegoat.

So scapegoat me....I can deal with it.  I offer myself up for service at the altar of scapegoating.

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4 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

Are there equivalent structures and mechanisms there to make that sort of thing happen, be it at the national or the state level?

Sort of, at least IMO.  We do have some Federal things like Civil Rights that are suppose to apply to all states.  That actually could be the basis of Federal level mandates on some things.  

However, most "Police policy" items do have to be handled on a State by State basis.

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6 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Alwin, I once received a suspension for a similar type of comment comment, although not even serious about it as you are....I advise you to remove yours so that you don't get one.

thank you for you wise advice, i'm pretty sure you pushed the report button yourself.
 

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