Mobile and the Future of Second Life

[Innula Zenovka]

I remember Lumiya, because I found it an absolute lifeline when, ten years ago, I had to spend a lot of time in hospital and used it to stay in touch with friends on SL on my tablet.  I don't see mobile or tablet access as an alternative to a desktop or laptop particularly, but certainly it would be a very useful supplement -- I can certainly see myself logging to kill time in for 20 minutes or so when otherwise I might use my tablet to read or listen to music. 

 

 

[Arielle Popstar]

19 minutes ago, Istelathis said:

All TPVs are essentially based upon LLs one viewer,  what LL has accomplished now is really impressive but it is using an entirely new engine to run SL from.  As far as I am aware these are two drastically different engines, which will probably require quite a lot more effort to maintain to keep compatible with one another.

Since they are moving to Vulkan even for the main viewers and this one is based on Unity which has Vulkan capability, wouldn't they be somewhat the same? A little above my head but seems there is intended and future compatibility.

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That would be impressive, and I hope it is the same with the newest viewer.  It would be nice to be able to play SL for a few hours at a time while away from home, especially for times when I just want to be outside of the house.

I think it helps that when i am mobile, I am not always looking at the graphics but often at the chat so perhaps that helps lower the power demand. In lumiya as an example it doesn't try to cram all the UI's in one window but flips between different windows so one has a good view of whatever one is looking for. The group and chat windows would likely not be any more draining than any other text based app with the graphic window in the background.

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It may be, it might destroy it for some of us - but there is always opensim if it becomes a drastically different platform.  Outside of google and apple getting a hold over how SL operates this is the one I worry about most.

Google didn't make any stipulations for Lumiya in the years it was on the play store so for them at least, I wouldn't see why they would for a viewer from S/L.

38 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Something tells me, you will still be using Lumiya no matter how great the official Second Life mobile viewer is.

Well not likely for SecondLife as the plan is to convert the network protocols all to http(s) which Lumiya doesn't support and the reason it hasn't the functionality it did 5 years ago and is losing more soon. Hence my promotion of the Lab getting their own out instead of waiting for some third party to do it.

[HeathcliffMontague]

I still fail to see the whole mobile SL allure, and what it would bring in the grand scheme of things. Even in new users or revenue. The kids already have their IMVU dressup or what not, never tried that, but seems very restrictive and unappealing to me.

My phone is always with me, always connected unless I'm in a meeting. But that is only because I happen to be a freelancer and need that work e-mail reaching me saying "can you take this on?" Need that to pay for my broadband and my pc

I used to be in the camp "how could you enjoy or even be in SL without a desktop". Well, laptops are actually getting usable. Not to the extent of a desktop, but actually getting a lot better upgrade wise and out of the the box wise too.

BUT, I don't get what you can do on a mobile with respect to SL. I made sure my laptop has at least a good Ryzen 5... I have a half decent Samsung, but... SL? On a mobile? What can you even do?

I mean, you are either in SL or not, right? Unless you really need to keep up with certain things?

I'm sure Animats can inform me in a friendly way why I'm a Luddite

[Ceka Cianci]

1 minute ago, Innula Zenovka said:

I remember Lumiya, because I found it an absolute lifeline when, ten years ago, I had to spend a lot of time in hospital and used it to stay in touch with friends on SL on my tablet.  I don't see mobile or tablet access as an alternative to a desktop or laptop particularly, but certainly it would be a very useful supplement -- I can certainly see myself logging to kill time in for 20 minutes or so when otherwise I might use my tablet to read or listen to music. 

 

 

Ya, that's when it would shine for me.. waiting rooms and down times when I'm out and about, and would have to have my phone plugged in in the hospital for sure.. because that's all I would be doing in there.. hehehehe

[Istelathis]

7 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Since they are moving to Vulkan even for the main viewers and this one is based on Unity which has Vulkan capability, wouldn't they be somewhat the same? A little above my head but seems there is intended and future compatibility.

I don't think they are going to be very similar at all, but that is all speculation on my part.  What LL has pulled off is really cool, and I am sure is one huge 'ol PITA that is going to take a while to catch up with what we have for a viewer now.  I hope I get to beta test it when they offer it to us.

9 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Google didn't make any stipulations for Lumiya in the years it was on the play store so for them at least, I wouldn't see why they would for a viewer from S/L.

Things have changed quite a bit since then, and what LL has accomplished is incredibly smooth, polished looking, beyond my expectations and I think it will likely draw in quite a lot more people than Lumiya ever did.  I don't think Lumiya ever even hit google's radar.  I think this has the potential to really skyrocket and bring in a lot of people, and unfortunately, a lot of the problems that are often associated with platforms that gain momentum.

[Nika Talaj]

I am SO not worried about SL becoming a front end for RL 3D shopping.  There are much easier ways to do that.

The only risk to SL I see is a long-term one, analogous to what seems to me has happened in the music industry.  Nowadays, we have many new releases, particularly in Pop and R&B, that seem to have been engineered to sound good on earbuds.  Play them on a good set of speakers with a decent amp (an increasingly rare setup!), and they sound ... well ... bad.  And, from a monetary point of view, that makes sense.  A lot of people are deciding what music they want to stream or buy based on what they hear on their headset.

So ... as we go on, we'll all learn what the rendering limitations on mobile devices are.   Once those are known, there's a few worrisome things that maybe could happen.

• LL might decide that the mobile client is successful enough that they no longer need to invest in improving SL's look on desktops
• Content creators might begin making content that looks great on the mobile client, and not so great on the desktop client.
• Mobile brings in a userbase interested in only fashion, concerts or some other limited application like 3D chat, that swamps the requirements/needs of those of us interested in a huge, diverse, interconnected geography.

We'll have to wait and see. 

[Caeruleiae]

1 hour ago, Arielle Popstar said:

The greatest challenge was the rendering of the view and from what we seen in that video, I think they have actually done a great job of doing just that.

You don't understand tech at all if you think that's the greatest challenge to having a really good mobile viewer for sl. Rendering is only made slightly more difficult for sl because of the user generated content which is always changing. Once dialed in it's no longer a challenge. The ability to properly render scenes under a myriad of constraints is something companies have been doing since before sl was a blip on the radar, even before I was born to some degree. The vast amount of improvements and advancements that have been made in the development of better tools for this should have provided ll with the roadmap they needed for it long before now. That they took this long to figure it out isn't necessarily a really bad thing. It just shows how difficult creating an actual full fledged viewer capable of what they claim they want a mobile viewer to be capable of will be to create. This is the tiniest of steps in a very long journey. They get my praises in that they were capable of making it look good but that ability to render a scene and all its moving parts has been out there for a while. It as a matter of them being able to fine tune it to their needs and then actually doing it. Even so as beautiful as it looks-because it does, it's the tiniest of steps. 

1 hour ago, Arielle Popstar said:

It is great that you see what is being developed but at the same time I will go with my own experience in using that mobile viewer in S/L for the past 8 or 9 years to point out it was capable of a lot more than you are giving it credit for.

If it was as capable of as much as you're trying to pretend it is, ll wouldn't need to start a whole new viewer from scratch. Clearly, it's not as capable and the people who have explained the issues it does have to me are much more knowledgeable and less fangirly than you are. One thing they all seem to agree on is that it is for the most basic of activities and not nearly so much regular use of sl. I think I'll go with the people who have no issue explaining both pros and cons.

I am a huge fangirl of tech and all its capabilities-I'll admit. It's fascinating to see all the things possible and all things that will be possible. I'm also a realist though and I know when something is or is not capable of doing something. I'm not knocking lumiya or any other viewer. What I am saying is, if it was so amazing and so many people used it and so capable of being as close to a full fledged viewer as possible-ll would be a lot further along in their mobile development. They aren't because nobody is-because it really is that hard. Sl is intricate as intricate gets, it won't be an easy path at all. I don't think anyone in development would disagree with that. 

Saying things like because imvu can do it ll can too is like saying because tiger woods can get a hole in one the blind man next door who has never even held a golf club can too on his very first shot. It's not the same even if both scenarios involve a golf club a ball and a man. Imvu manages what they do by simplifying everything for themselves right out the gate. Everything from their development to function even interactivity in the service is basic as basic gets compared to what sl requires and would require.  I'm not putting down that company either but the comparison is more than a bit silly and makes it difficult to take anything you say seriously when you keep mentioning it. 

[Rolig Loon]

33 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

I don't see mobile or tablet access as an alternative to a desktop or laptop particularly, but certainly it would be a very useful supplement -- I can certainly see myself logging to kill time in for 20 minutes or so when otherwise I might use my tablet to read or listen to music. 

I agree.  I recently spent a couple of weeks out of town, using my mobile phone as the only way to connect with the Internet. It's fine for short bursts, but I can't see using it as my primary way to connect with something like SL.  I don't happen to own a tablet, but that wouldn't be much of a step up from the phone. If I'm going to do anything other than chat and wander around, I'll want a full-sized screen.  I'll want  my desktop. A small screen is handy in a pinch but using it for SL would be like going on a cruise and seeing the world through a porthole. 

I suspect that the mobile platform will be attractive for casual players and will be useful if you're away from home and can't use a real computer, so it's a nice option. It may also be a good way to attract new users -- get them started on a small-world version of SL and hope that they move to the real thing when they are hooked.

[Eirynne Sieyes]

I'm not worried. Remember all the fuss over how SL would go down the tubes and be destroyed when it was sold? Well, all Oberwager et al. have done since acquisition is invest in SL and add some truly noteworthy features. Transformative features. The Lab Gab mobile preview was astounding. Not quite there, but the Lindens have made good on their promises.

Those of us with thick glasses can still play on our desktops. I welcome having kids come in with their phones and tablets.

[Arielle Popstar]

56 minutes ago, HeathcliffMontague said:

I still fail to see the whole mobile SL allure, and what it would bring in the grand scheme of things. Even in new users or revenue. The kids already have their IMVU dressup or what not, never tried that, but seems very restrictive and unappealing to me.

My phone is always with me, always connected unless I'm in a meeting. But that is only because I happen to be a freelancer and need that work e-mail reaching me saying "can you take this on?" Need that to pay for my broadband and my pc

I used to be in the camp "how could you enjoy or even be in SL without a desktop". Well, laptops are actually getting usable. Not to the extent of a desktop, but actually getting a lot better upgrade wise and out of the the box wise too.

BUT, I don't get what you can do on a mobile with respect to SL. I made sure my laptop has at least a good Ryzen 5... I have a half decent Samsung, but... SL? On a mobile? What can you even do?

I mean, you are either in SL or not, right? Unless you really need to keep up with certain things?

I'm sure Animats can inform me in a friendly way why I'm a Luddite

The mobile viewer allowed me to follow groups and friends who were on at a time when I was/am away from home but yet not so fully engrossed that I couldn't be present. I no longer work the 7 day a week schedule I did for years but still use it on occasion for presence in multiple grids, even if for nothing more then virtually sitting with a friend who can use the someone else being there for a light chat. I actually love the mobile for that as I can use the voice to text feature and not needing to type. I am able to do limited shopping and at the very least get notified of promo's on items I wouldn't otherwise see. Quite a few activities really that do not involve having to have a full fledged viewer.

[Arielle Popstar]

53 minutes ago, Istelathis said:

Things have changed quite a bit since then, and what LL has accomplished is incredibly smooth, polished looking, beyond my expectations and I think it will likely draw in quite a lot more people than Lumiya ever did.  I don't think Lumiya ever even hit google's radar.  I think this has the potential to really skyrocket and bring in a lot of people, and unfortunately, a lot of the problems that are often associated with platforms that gain momentum.

Well yes, Lumiya was a third party viewer that was relegated to the back pages of the Secondlife site and never promoted by the Lab as a working mobile viewer for the platform. In spite of that, at least a half million residents actually paid out monies for it. That in itself is quite a feat considering most residents consider viewers should be free. With the Lab having their own Mobile viewer, they will no doubt be advertising it far and wide that they have it, at least let's hope they do.

[Rolig Loon]

2 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

The mobile viewer allowed me to follow groups and friends who were on at a time when I was/am away from home but yet not so fully engrossed that I couldn't be present. I no longer work the 7 day a week schedule I did for years but still use it on occasion for presence in multiple grids, even if for nothing more then virtually sitting with a friend who can use the someone else being there for a light chat. I actually love the mobile for that as I can use the voice to text feature and not needing to type. I am able to do limited shopping and at the very least get notified of promo's on items I wouldn't otherwise see. Quite a few activities really that do not involve having to have a full fledged viewer.

Yeah, I can see that as a legitimate rationale for having a mobile app. There are a lot of casual SL users, and those of us who prefer a larger screen can occasionally find ourselves away from home. The more options, the better.

[Henri Beauchamp]

While I am personally not interested at all in a mobile viewer (being the old fart I am, I do not even own a smartphone; perhaps I'd need a fartphone ? 🤪), I am nonetheless quite happy that LL is finally developing one !

Why ?

Because, let's face it, SL urgently needs a way to attract more users to survive. LL cannot only rely on old time SLers to keep the business going. The mobile platform, while quite limited and imperfect for enjoying the full range of activities SL offers (I really don't see how you could para-RP on a smartphone, for example, or build, or script...), will give an opportunity for younger and/or less ”geeky” users to come to SL, and stay (the user retention has always been a BIG issue in SL).

So yes, there will be newcomers with different views on what SL is to be used for, but we should not fear it, and on the contrary embrace it as a chance to see SL strive and develop in the next two decades, instead of slowly dying before a foreclosure... I'm not worried: SL is big enough for expanding the diversity of its usages without predating existing ones.

Long Second Life !

Edited March 11, 2023 by Henri Beauchamp

[HeathcliffMontague]

48 minutes ago, Henri Beauchamp said:

While I am personally not interested at all in a mobile viewer (being the old fart I am, I do not even own a smartphone; perhaps I'd need a fartphone ? 🤪), I am nonetheless quite happy that LL is finally developing one !

Why ?

Because, let's face it, SL urgently needs a way to attract more users to survive. LL cannot only rely on old time SLers to keep the business going. The mobile platform, while quite limited and imperfect for enjoying the full range of activities SL offers (I really don't see how you could para-RP on a smartphone, for example, or build, or script...), will give an opportunity for younger and/or less ”geeky” users to come to SL, and stay (the user retention has always been a BIG issue in SL).

So yes, there will be newcomers with different views on what SL is to be used for, but we should not fear it, and on the contrary embrace it as a chance to see SL strive and develop in the next two decades, instead of slowly dying before a foreclosure... I'm not worried: SL is big enough for expanding the diversity of its usages without predating existing ones.

Long Second Life !

That's just fine, but losing SL as it is will be a  huge loss for the whole metaverse concept. Neal Stephenson will have to write a whole new book.

[Rowan Amore]

2 hours ago, HeathcliffMontague said:

I still fail to see the whole mobile SL allure, and what it would bring in the grand scheme of things. Even in new users or revenue. The kids already have their IMVU dressup or what not, never tried that, but seems very restrictive and unappealing to me.

 

The allure is more people logging in from work, standing around at a busy place and being AFK.  Sounds awesome!

[Love Zhaoying]

21 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

The allure is more people logging in from work, standing around at a busy place and being AFK.  Sounds awesome!

..phone slex!

[Rowan Amore]

7 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

..phone slex!

While you're at work?  😂

[bigmoe Whitfield]

8 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

..phone slex!

*sighs*  *hands his tail over*  *walks away and see's nothing*

[Adam Spark]

I sure hope LL is back in the metaverse sweepstakes. Leaving was a huge mistake in my opinion.

As for mobile - it looks way better than I expected, but I'll need to see how inventory, chat, groups, notices and all that is managed, as well as interacting with objects and paying for items and all that. I'm still of the belief that SL on mobile is several times better in theory than it will be in practice, but who knows.

Emoji viewer? Ok that is awesome!

[Caeruleiae]

People underestimate us youngins sometimes. They think they know what younger generations want and sometimes they're right-but sometimes they're dead wrong. We do like flashy techy nerdy geeky things-and also instant gratification. We do like things to work like they should not just only partly work or lite versions of everything. Some of us are the kind of people that just want everything done and handed over so we can do-whatever-with it even if sometimes a lite version. A lot of us would rather be more immersed into the experience of whatever it is we're doing and mobile isn't always something that gets us there.

A mobile viewer likely won't appeal to a younger crowd as much as it seems like it would-considering a lot of us are permanently attached to mobile devices these days. At least not for something like sl. For everything else-yeah mobile is the way to go. Sl mobile would probably appeal more to people who have to be on sl but can't be on a laptop or computer at that very moment for whatever reason. Someone who is already established in sl is definitely more likely to have use for a mobile viewer. Even the most casual user of sl probably won't be as interested in a mobile viewer unless it's fully functional though.  The mobile client may be able to showcase some parts of sl and that's a good draw but it's not a good retainer without-but wait, on a full viewer, there's more. Dangle the techy device with the promise of better service and fuller experience on a full viewer-then actually fulfill that- and we'll probably come running and bring in a lot more with good press.  Dangle it and make promises but don't fulfill them and we'll bury you in negative press. That's one thing we're really good at-getting the word out and bad word travels way faster from our tiny little fingers and not so tiny mouths.

[Akane Nacht]

I'd love to use SL on my phone, for things other than building, as a big screen is really needed for that.

This is provided the app is free. Never paid for a mobile app and never will 😉

[diamond Marchant]

5 hours ago, Caeruleiae said:

It just shows how difficult creating an actual full fledged viewer capable of what they claim they want a mobile viewer to be capable of will be to create.

Here's the thing. All we got today, I think, is a demo of a viewer running on a mobile device and rendering some scenes from Second Life, perhaps using existing server protocols.

Nobody said anything about "what they claim they want a mobile viewer to be capable of ". I suspect that they DO NOT have an objective of recreating the current viewer on a mobile device. Rather, I hope they are going after something completely different that does not present a high barrier of entry due to complexity.

Something that is not a continuation of the sandbox game.

What would this new thing be?

[Bree Giffen]

LL working on a mobile viewer makes more sense than working in Sansar. What was shown looks quite nice and I look forward to a mobile SL client in the future. 
 

I think what was said about VR is wrong though. We don’t need 60fps because SL isn’t the kind of game with a lot of movement. I don’t know if everyone uses first person view often in SL but the third person overhead view in VR is fairly slow. Games like Moss or Astrobot Rescue Mission use an overhead view and are very low level in causing motion sickness in my opinion. However, I don’t mind that VR is not a priority. Mobile should be.

[Drayke Newall]

Unless as part of this new unity based mobile viewer they have also changed the way you customise your avatar to a more simple and mobile version that isn't as convoluted as what we have with the desktop version (what some of us users have been wanting for ages) or added a way to easily place and move items in world, then this viewer will not bring in many new people nor really be taken up and have continual use by current SL users.

Whilst I would love to have a mobile viewer, if it doesn't have functionality of the most desired uses people use SL and virtual worlds for, Barbie dress up/Barbie dream house and explore in a user friendly UI manner then it will be DOA with $$ wasted on development just like LL did with SANSAR. LL need to listen to not only their userbase but also look at their competitors on mobile. From the look of the demo they have explore working but seems they refuse to believe that a mobile viewer needs avatar customisation and basic world editing.

@Mojo Linden I suggest you take a look at Avakin Life. If you want the SL mobile viewer to be used by not only SL users but also a way to tap into the huge userbase mobile has to offer then this viewer has to offer more - far more. Even if it takes another years development, dont be like your predecessors, get it right from the start and dont play catch-up. For reference, your competitor on mobile Avakin life has 200million accounts and 1million daily users, far more than even Second Life's desktop version of 70million and 200,000 respectively. To pull users away from that you are going to have to have a much more functional viewer to compete.

Also, if you are going to have this available on google and ios you are going to have to think further than just the viewer. If people can sign up and login directly from the mobile viewer how will those users go with new user island when all the tutorials etc are only for the desktop viewer controls?

[animats]

50 minutes ago, diamond Marchant said:

Here's the thing. All we got today, I think, is a demo of a viewer running on a mobile device and rendering some scenes from Second Life, perhaps using existing server protocols.

I expect this is talking to standard SL servers using the existing protocols. There's no reason to change that part for mobile. I doubt if the viewer is even that different.

The hard part with mobile is the user interface. SL's huge collection of menus and HUDs just won't fit.

Onboarding for mobile users will be an interesting challenge. They'll need their own entry point to Second Life.