Mobile and the Future of Second Life

[Sid Nagy]

Yes, I agree there will be inevitable changes of some kind in the future.
But attracting new and younger people is an important issue too I guess. Existing users age every year together with SL.
So I can totally understand why LL gives it a serious go to get it running on the smartphones and tablets.
Desktops and laptops had their best time for most Internet related things on the consumer side.

[Arielle Popstar]

32 minutes ago, Istelathis said:

We are talking about two entirely different versions of the clients to access the servers, not different ports of the same software which is much more manageable but two entirely different viewers using different engines.  It only makes sense that one will eventually overtake the other, to do otherwise is almost insanity.  Porting the existing viewer to mobile is probably not going to happen..

It is likely unity will over time be the winner, which might be the end of TPVs, so no more firestorm, catznip, alchemy, and any other viewer and much less transparency.  We are further talking about an UI that favors mobile users.

An influx of new users, and popularity will bring an opportunity for people to have a new tool to radicalize others to their ideology, be it political, religious, whatever.  That is when Google and Apple step in and start imposing rules to be pushed upon the masses or threaten to yank the product from their stores.  What we end up with is a much more bland product, just like what has happened to the majority of the Internet.

But, if this does happen, it will be a few years from now.  Most of you will not see it coming for quite a while.

A couple of things. 1. A mobile UI would probably need to be simpler and that could be a good thing by pushing the Lab to make things easier and reduce the steep learning curve it has a reputation for. They could easily start with reducing the steps required to go from demo'ing a product to purchasing it. That in a regular viewer takes 20 clicks. Total waste. From other dress up games, it could easily be brought down to a 1/4 of that if not less. A Try It button on the MP and then a Buy it. The try it button can simply transfer the item to the Local or Temp folder of the Viewer so the resident has a non permanent copy of the product they can try on and then if satisfied, click the Buy it  button for the permanent copy of the item. Reducing all that clicking, unpacking, finding, trashing, find the MP page again, buy it, unpack it and drag it to a permanent location. Utter insanity to have such a workflow for something that can be much simpler.

2. Android at the very least can be hosted and downloaded from S/L servers directly thereby not under the political auspices of whatever Google might think is appropriate, so I see that as a somewhat unfounded fear.

[benchthis]

1 hour ago, Sid Nagy said:

1 hour ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I wonder - for iOS version of SL Mobile, if @ppole will allow for L$ payments or try to force payments through their system.  

Do they force Amazon customers to pay through the apple app?

I think as long as LL isn't gonna charge for the download of the app @ppole has very little influence about what and how payments happen inside the app.

Never though of possibility of LL charging for the app. They could put it in beta and charge to bug test the beta and then charge to get after beta as well to keep trolls and app alts down. I don't know yet if it would be good or bad to do that and the pros and cons of each. But that's $$$$$$$ just waiting to be claimed. 

[Quistess Alpha]

Quote

Google app store

at least Android has a choice between different app-store curators. Free-droid is awesome for finding non-add-spammy basic functionality apps, and Amazon Appstore exists I guess.

[Coffee Pancake]

I am most interested in how the viewer plans to pass Apple's app store guidelines (the app was pictured on an iPAD). Highlights include  .... (emphasis mine and edited for brevity)

(source) https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/

Quote

1.1 Objectionable Content

Apps should not include content that is offensive, insensitive, upsetting, intended to disgust, in exceptionally poor taste, or just plain creepy. Examples of such content include:

1.1.1 Defamatory, discriminatory, or mean-spirited content, including references or commentary about religion, race, sexual orientation, gender, national/ethnic origin, or other targeted groups, particularly if the app is likely to humiliate, intimidate, or harm a targeted individual or group. Professional political satirists and humorists are generally exempt from this requirement.

1.1.2 Realistic portrayals of people or animals being killed, maimed, tortured, or abused, or content that encourages violence. “Enemies” within the context of a game cannot solely target a specific race, culture, real government, corporation, or any other real entity.

1.1.3 Depictions that encourage illegal or reckless use of weapons and dangerous objects, or facilitate the purchase of firearms or ammunition.

1.1.4 Overtly sexual or pornographic material, defined as “explicit descriptions or displays of sexual organs or activities intended to stimulate erotic rather than aesthetic or emotional feelings.” This includes “hookup” apps and other apps that may include pornography or be used to facilitate prostitution, or human trafficking and exploitation.

That's Tuesday in Second Life.

Quote

1.2 User-Generated Content

.......

Apps with user-generated content or services that end up being used primarily for pornographic content, Chatroulette-style experiences, objectification of real people (e.g. “hot-or-not” voting), making physical threats, or bullying do not belong on the App Store and may be removed without notice. If your app includes user-generated content from a web-based service, it may display incidental mature “NSFW” content, provided that the content is hidden by default and only displayed when the user turns it on via your website.

1.2.1 Creator Content
Apps which feature content from a specific community of users called “creators” are a great opportunity if properly moderated. ...

and there goes the rest of the week.

Quote

3. Business

Everything.

Welp.

 

Are LL planning to just go for it and find out?

Will the viewer limit access to G rated or special "Linden curated content" regions ?

Will avatars and attachments be freely up to the user or will there be a "safelist" and submission process for creators, how about for objects and huds?

What happens when a child pokes Mommy's ipad and logs in where she logged off?

 

Which is barely scratching the surface.

 

[benchthis]

4 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

1.1 Objectionable Content

Apps should not include content that is offensive, insensitive, upsetting, intended to disgust, in exceptionally poor taste, or just plain creepy. Examples of such content include:

There goes that. Save your money LL. Trolls are going to troll and report them so hard just to knock them off. It's not even worth being on a platform that is that unstable. LL needs to put the mobile on an app store that is compatible with apple products but does not have to comply with their so called requirements.  

Edited March 12, 2023 by benchthis

[benchthis]

18 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Are LL planning to just go for it and find out?

Being on the app store does have it's advantages only going to allow premade avatars in official settings only, no avatar attachments. Can't risk someone putting an apple on their croch and ARing to apple. Not sure if it's a violation to have two seperate games one to comply and one that has full graphic adult situations? 

Wonders if the sl viewer can be access from apples browser instead of an app? Dare I say a virtual website? is there such a thing? 

Edited March 12, 2023 by benchthis

[Quistess Alpha]

13 minutes ago, benchthis said:

Wonders if the sl viewer can be access from apples browser instead of an app? Dare I say a virtual website? is there such a thing? 

making the viewer in unity makes an additional web-browser port less-unrealistic, but still probably unlikely.

[Innula Zenovka]

40 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

I am most interested in how the viewer plans to pass Apple's app store guidelines (the app was pictured on an iPAD). Highlights include  .... (emphasis mine and edited for brevity)

(source) https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/

That's Tuesday in Second Life.

and there goes the rest of the week.

Welp.

 

Are LL planning to just go for it and find out?

Will the viewer limit access to G rated or special "Linden curated content" regions ?

Will avatars and attachments be freely up to the user or will there be a "safelist" and submission process for creators, how about for objects and huds?

What happens when a child pokes Mommy's ipad and logs in where she logged off?

 

Which is barely scratching the surface.

 

Being an Android user I wouldn't know, but can people use iPods to access, for example, reddit or twitter via a mobile web browser (I assume iPod supports them)?   

If they can, then what's the difference between the possibly objectionable content they might discover on reddit or twitter vs the possibly objectionable content they might encounter in SL?   I know at one point Apple were, at least if Elon Musk is to be believed, threatening to remove the Twitter app from their store, but it still there.

 

 

 

 

[Coffee Pancake]

5 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

If they can, then what's the difference between the possibly objectionable content they might discover on reddit or twitter vs the possibly objectionable content they might encounter in SL?   I know at one point Apple were, at least if Elon Musk is to be believed, threatening to remove the Twitter app from their store, but it still there

Reddit and Twitter are truly massive platforms. Twitter was listed and Reddit plans to IPO later this year.

SL and LL are ... not.

[Innula Zenovka]

7 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Reddit and Twitter are truly massive platforms. Twitter was listed and Reddit plans to IPO later this year.

SL and LL are ... not.

Quite possibly so, but are you saying that they don't comply with Apple's rules but get a pass because of their size?   I see that both Parler and Truth Social are available in the Apple store, and they're a lot smaller. 

[Quistess Alpha]

5 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

both Parler and Truth Social are available in the Apple store, and they're a lot smaller

Perhaps apple doesn't want a talking head whining about abuse of their 'monopoly power' on fox news?

[Innula Zenovka]

4 minutes ago, Quistess Alpha said:

Perhaps apple doesn't want a talking head whining about abuse of their 'monopoly power' on fox news?

Perhaps not, though I see from The Guardian that 

Parler, the rightwing social network being acquired by US rapper Ye, was restored by Apple in 2021 after the app updated its content and moderation practices, the companies said at the time.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/nov/28/elon-musk-apple-twitter-app-store-ban

So perhaps Apple don't interpret their own terms quite as stringently as some people fear they might.

[EliseAnne85]

1 hour ago, Innula Zenovka said:

So perhaps Apple don't interpret their own terms quite as stringently as some people fear they might.

I asked Google the question "does Apple allow Adult apps" and got the following answer BELOW: 

But, aside from the answer below, I feel Apple should allow an Apple Adult App Store as it's the 21st Century already 'cause this is getting ridiculous for adults.   BTW, I don't know anything about Tumblr nor how it might compare with SL.

*********

Yes and no.

Any apps which include or promote adult content will not be passed by Apple.

However apps which incidentally allow access to pornographic content will be allowed. For instance the Tumblr app.

Edited March 12, 2023 by EliseAnne85

[Coffee Pancake]

2 hours ago, Innula Zenovka said:

Quite possibly so, but are you saying that they don't comply with Apple's rules but get a pass because of their size?   I see that both Parler and Truth Social are available in the Apple store, and they're a lot smaller. 

Apple don't operate in a vaccuum.

Parler and Truth while smaller are high profile and intensely political. To remove them, even for legitimate rule breaking, would be seen as Apple making politically motivated decisions.

None of the BS that happens on those or other sites/apps with an app store presence gives us a pass.

If Apple want to deny us entry, even for entirely BS reasons like Twitch, they can pick almost anything from their guidelines as "legitimate justification". The fact that Twitch ban us by name for "reasons" simply makes that decision easier for them.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

18 minutes ago, EliseAnne85 said:

 BTW, I don't know anything about Tumblr nor how it might compare with SL.

Tumblr's just a microblogging social media site. Users post mini blog posts featuring text, videos, and photos, pretty much. It's been in the news quite a bit over adult content - they tried banning it, changing the rules and unbanning it, etc. It's all on Wikipedia.

The commerce side of SL might fall into that "promote adult content" rule, but I have no idea honestly. SL's a pretty complicated beast.

Edited March 12, 2023 by Ayashe Ninetails
Grammaring

[Coffee Pancake]

Just now, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Tumblr's just a microblogging social media site. Users post mini blog posts featuring text, videos, and photos, pretty much. It's been in the news quite a bit over adult content - they tried banning it, changing the rules and unbanning it, etc. It's all on Wikipedia.

Should LL ever decide to reign in the adult content in hopes of gaining a mass market, that would be a similar, epic tumblr blunder.

[Arielle Popstar]

20 minutes ago, EliseAnne85 said:

I asked Google the question "does Apple allow Adult apps" and got the following answer BELOW: 

But, aside from the answer below, I feel Apple should allow an Apple Adult App Store as it's the 21st Century already 'cause this is getting ridiculous for adults.   BTW, I don't know anything about Tumblr nor how it might compare with SL.

well if S/L had to clean up to the degree that Tumblr has over the past year and bit, they might as well kiss half their residents good bye.

[Coffee Pancake]

1 minute ago, Arielle Popstar said:

well if S/L had to clean up to the degree that Tumblr has over the past year and bit, they might as well kiss half their residents good bye.

It would be half the residents, and their non sexual friends.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

Just now, Coffee Pancake said:

Should LL ever decide to reign in the adult content in hopes of gaining a mass market, that would be a similar, epic tumblr blunder.

Yeahhhhh, not really sure how that would go. Hope it doesn't come to that, either, but given everything happening these days on that front - it might.

[Innula Zenovka]

12 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Apple don't operate in a vaccuum.

Parler and Truth while smaller are high profile and intensely political. To remove them, even for legitimate rule breaking, would be seen as Apple making politically motivated decisions.

None of the BS that happens on those or other sites/apps with an app store presence gives us a pass.

If Apple want to deny us entry, even for entirely BS reasons like Twitch, they can pick almost anything from their guidelines as "legitimate justification". The fact that Twitch ban us by name for "reasons" simply makes that decision easier for them.

Can you provide an example of when Apple have refused to list, or have delisted, an app that you think gives cause for concern about their possible attitude to an SL app, or are your concerns based wholly on your interpretation of Apple's terms of service and how you think they might be applied?

[Coffee Pancake]

3 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

Can you provide an example of when Apple have refused to list, or have delisted, an app that you think gives cause for concern about their possible attitude to an SL app, or are your concerns based wholly on your interpretation of Apple's terms of service and how you think they might be applied?

Yes .. and they aren't hard to find. https://mjtsai.com/blog/tag/rejection/ .. I randomly clicked on one, Fanhouse; a site that allow creators to monetize their work, that got admitted and then removed when Apple came for their 30% https://mjtsai.com/blog/2021/06/11/fanhouse-vs-apple/

We fall foul of so much of the guidelines due to content concerns, it's almost easy to over look the entire business section which absolutely nails SL to the wall.

If we're really lucky we will be able to pass content rules by making fundamental sweeping changes to the platform and it's content, if not we do a tumblr and dash the platform against the rocks, and then they refuse us again because they want 30% of the economy.

[EliseAnne85]

25 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

Can you provide an example of when Apple have refused to list, or have delisted, an app that you think gives cause for concern about their possible attitude to an SL app, or are your concerns based wholly on your interpretation of Apple's terms of service and how you think they might be applied?

I searched if Apple banned any apps and it answered Fortnite.  I don't play Fortnite, so I cannot confirm that 100%.

Is Fortnite still banned on Apple Store?

 

 

Epic Games CEO Tim Sweeney teased last year that Fortnite will return to iOS in 2023. We can't be sure how exactly Epic Games will try to bring Fortnite back to iOS, especially considering that the game is still banned from the App Store.Jan 24, 2023

[Arielle Popstar]

21 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

Can you provide an example of when Apple have refused to list, or have delisted, an app that you think gives cause for concern about their possible attitude to an SL app, or are your concerns based wholly on your interpretation of Apple's terms of service and how you think they might be applied?

It was never explicitly stated why the Lab's initial attempt at a Mobile Apple viewer was scuttled but someone did post that Apple had some issue with what they did accomplish up to the point they did. For all we know Apple may have had issue with S/L viewer just from reputation resulting in the Lab going in a new direction.

Quote

 

Good morning everyone,

After reviewing the current state of the SL Mobile Viewer and the helpful feedback from residents, we have decided to pause development on this branch. The team is actively working on a new direction to take from here. We should have some news on that soon. 

We’d like to thank you all for your time and feedback. It was very valuable to us! We will be closing TestFlight and the mobile regions on October 29th, 2021.  Again, thank you for participation! 

 

It would be highly unlikely that the Lab would admit to not meeting Apple's porn guidelines publicly so rather just say it was from feedback from residents.

[Innula Zenovka]

38 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Yes .. and they aren't hard to find. https://mjtsai.com/blog/tag/rejection/ .. I randomly clicked on one, Fanhouse; a site that allow creators to monetize their work, that got admitted and then removed when Apple came for their 30% https://mjtsai.com/blog/2021/06/11/fanhouse-vs-apple/

We fall foul of so much of the guidelines due to content concerns, it's almost easy to over look the entire business section which absolutely nails SL to the wall.

If we're really lucky we will be able to pass content rules by making fundamental sweeping changes to the platform and it's content, if not we do a tumblr and dash the platform against the rocks, and then they refuse us again because they want 30% of the economy.

I may be missing the point, but the link you provide contains a long list of apps rejected by Apple.   Which in particular do you say are analogous to SL?  

LL will presumably have considered all this before committing much time and money to developing an Apple app for SL -- Randy Waterfield and Brad Oberwager don't seem the sort of people to miss that kind of thing.