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9 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I wasn't criticizing Doc at all, Selene. It's Adam who leaves me unimpressed.

In fact, Doc and I are, together, a good example of people who can frequently disagree, as we have on a number of occasions on the Creation forum, and still get along pretty well. I don't think Doc would put me on ignore because we've butted heads sometimes, and I certainly wouldn't do that to him.

Ignoring people with whom you disagree because you are too intellectually lazy to acknowledge and wrestle with different perspectives and views isn't Doc's way, nor mine. That would be Adam.

I don't read that section unless I have hit a brick wall I can't get past. Thanks for clearing that up though because it sounded like you were saying you weren't impressed with either of them to me. 

Doc has the unfortunate "privilege" of being about the only German I get along with so I tend to be a little protective of him when I see what looks like a communication issue since English is not his native language and he is, in some ways, still learning.

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^^^This^^^ is what scares me.  The belief that people are no longer allowed to have their own opinions, their own thoughts and have to fall in line with one narrative, one ideology.   Newsflash,

When did have a political opinion become "hate speech"?

What exactly do you expect them to do?  As with most things that are against the ToS, they will act appropriately when and if it is brought to their attention.  They have given us, the residents, the

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75 million voted Trump, or conservative. Labeling them all as fascists' or white nationalists or whatever is the very definition of bigotry. In every large group there are going to be fringe  players, be it on the Left or the Right (as it applies in the USA) But for a society to function with differently held opinions the old old adage of Agree to Disagree is how we remain civil

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1 minute ago, Jackson Redstar said:

75 million voted Trump, or conservative. Labeling them all as fascists' or white nationalists or whatever is the very definition of bigotry. In every large group there are going to be fringe  players, be it on the Left or the Right (as it applies in the USA) But for a society to function with differently held opinions the old old adage of Agree to Disagree is how we remain civil

It's a good thing we're not really doing that in this thread. :P The only people getting labeled as fascists or white nationalists are the ones espousing fascist or white nationalist propaganda.

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1 minute ago, Cinos Field said:

The only people getting labeled as fascists or white nationalists are the ones espousing fascist or white nationalist propaganda.

"Fascism - can be characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition" Deplatforming and outing everyone who supported or voted for a position/person that the party in power doesn't approve of is also know as Fascism

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4 hours ago, Extrude Ragu said:

I find this sentence to be intellectually dishonest. You paint it as good vs evil but the reality is not like that at all.

Since you do not live in the US you do not know what it is really like here or what is really going on. The reality here is nothing like what you are trying to present it as being. 

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1 minute ago, Jackson Redstar said:

"Fascism - can be characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition" Deplatforming and outing everyone who supported or voted for a position/person that the party in power doesn't approve of is also know as Fascism

It would be, if it happened.

Which it didn't.

The people who called for a violent insurrection are the ones who got deplatformed.

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1 minute ago, Cinos Field said:

It would be, if it happened.

Which it didn't.

The people who called for a violent insurrection are the ones who got deplatformed.

well, we ALL know that simply is not the case.  People/groups are targeted by the new majority because of hate. 

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5 minutes ago, Jackson Redstar said:

"Fascism - can be characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition" Deplatforming and outing everyone who supported or voted for a position/person that the party in power doesn't approve of is also know as Fascism

Unfortunately the word "fascism" has been widely abused by the far left and the soviet dictatorships to label their opponents. So it lost it´s orginal meaning in the public attention.  Unfortunately fascism still is fascism. I find Eco´s definition from 1996 very helpful.

  1. "The Cult of Tradition", characterized by cultural syncretism, even at the risk of internal contradiction. When all truth has already been revealed by Tradition, no new learning can occur, only further interpretation and refinement.
  2. "The Rejection of modernism", which views the rationalistic development of Western culture since the Enlightenment as a descent into depravity. Eco distinguishes this from a rejection of superficial technological advancement, as many fascist regimes cite their industrial potency as proof of the vitality of their system.
  3. "The Cult of Action for Action's Sake", which dictates that action is of value in itself, and should be taken without intellectual reflection. This, says Eco, is connected with anti-intellectualism and irrationalism, and often manifests in attacks on modern culture and science.
  4. "Disagreement Is Treason" – Fascism devalues intellectual discourse and critical reasoning as barriers to action, as well as out of fear that such analysis will expose the contradictions embodied in a syncretistic faith.
  5. "Fear of Difference", which fascism seeks to exploit and exacerbate, often in the form of racism or an appeal against foreigners and immigrants.
  6. "Appeal to a Frustrated Middle Class", fearing economic pressure from the demands and aspirations of lower social groups.
  7. "Obsession with a Plot" and the hyping-up of an enemy threat. This often combines an appeal to xenophobia with a fear of disloyalty and sabotage from marginalized groups living within the society (such as the German elite's 'fear' of the 1930s Jewish populace's businesses and well-doings; see also anti-Semitism). Eco also cites Pat Robertson's book The New World Order as a prominent example of a plot obsession.
  8. Fascist societies rhetorically cast their enemies as "at the same time too strong and too weak." On the one hand, fascists play up the power of certain disfavored elites to encourage in their followers a sense of grievance and humiliation. On the other hand, fascist leaders point to the decadence of those elites as proof of their ultimate feebleness in the face of an overwhelming popular will.
  9. "Pacifism is Trafficking with the Enemy" because "Life is Permanent Warfare" – there must always be an enemy to fight. Both fascist Germany under Hitler and Italy under Mussolini worked first to organize and clean up their respective countries and then build the war machines that they later intended to and did use, despite Germany being under restrictions of the Versailles treaty to not build a military force. This principle leads to a fundamental contradiction within fascism: the incompatibility of ultimate triumph with perpetual war.
  10. "Contempt for the Weak", which is uncomfortably married to a chauvinistic popular elitism, in which every member of society is superior to outsiders by virtue of belonging to the in-group. Eco sees in these attitudes the root of a deep tension in the fundamentally hierarchical structure of fascist polities, as they encourage leaders to despise their underlings, up to the ultimate Leader who holds the whole country in contempt for having allowed him to overtake it by force.
  11. "Everybody is Educated to Become a Hero", which leads to the embrace of a cult of death. As Eco observes, "[t]he Ur-Fascist hero is impatient to die. In his impatience, he more frequently sends other people to death."
  12. "Machismo", which sublimates the difficult work of permanent war and heroism into the sexual sphere. Fascists thus hold "both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality."
  13. "Selective Populism" – The People, conceived monolithically, have a Common Will, distinct from and superior to the viewpoint of any individual. As no mass of people can ever be truly unanimous, the Leader holds himself out as the interpreter of the popular will (though truly he dictates it). Fascists use this concept to delegitimize democratic institutions they accuse of "no longer represent[ing] the Voice of the People."
  14. "Newspeak" – Fascism employs and promotes an impoverished vocabulary in order to limit critical reasoning.
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1 minute ago, Vivienne Schell said:

Unfortunately the word "fascism" has been widely abused by the far left and the soviet dictatorships to label their opponents. So it lost it´s orginal meaning in the public attention.  Unfortunately fascism still is fascism. I find Eco´s definition from 1996 very helpful.

  1. "The Cult of Tradition", characterized by cultural syncretism, even at the risk of internal contradiction. When all truth has already been revealed by Tradition, no new learning can occur, only further interpretation and refinement.
  2. "The Rejection of modernism", which views the rationalistic development of Western culture since the Enlightenment as a descent into depravity. Eco distinguishes this from a rejection of superficial technological advancement, as many fascist regimes cite their industrial potency as proof of the vitality of their system.
  3. "The Cult of Action for Action's Sake", which dictates that action is of value in itself, and should be taken without intellectual reflection. This, says Eco, is connected with anti-intellectualism and irrationalism, and often manifests in attacks on modern culture and science.
  4. "Disagreement Is Treason" – Fascism devalues intellectual discourse and critical reasoning as barriers to action, as well as out of fear that such analysis will expose the contradictions embodied in a syncretistic faith.
  5. "Fear of Difference", which fascism seeks to exploit and exacerbate, often in the form of racism or an appeal against foreigners and immigrants.
  6. "Appeal to a Frustrated Middle Class", fearing economic pressure from the demands and aspirations of lower social groups.
  7. "Obsession with a Plot" and the hyping-up of an enemy threat. This often combines an appeal to xenophobia with a fear of disloyalty and sabotage from marginalized groups living within the society (such as the German elite's 'fear' of the 1930s Jewish populace's businesses and well-doings; see also anti-Semitism). Eco also cites Pat Robertson's book The New World Order as a prominent example of a plot obsession.
  8. Fascist societies rhetorically cast their enemies as "at the same time too strong and too weak." On the one hand, fascists play up the power of certain disfavored elites to encourage in their followers a sense of grievance and humiliation. On the other hand, fascist leaders point to the decadence of those elites as proof of their ultimate feebleness in the face of an overwhelming popular will.
  9. "Pacifism is Trafficking with the Enemy" because "Life is Permanent Warfare" – there must always be an enemy to fight. Both fascist Germany under Hitler and Italy under Mussolini worked first to organize and clean up their respective countries and then build the war machines that they later intended to and did use, despite Germany being under restrictions of the Versailles treaty to not build a military force. This principle leads to a fundamental contradiction within fascism: the incompatibility of ultimate triumph with perpetual war.
  10. "Contempt for the Weak", which is uncomfortably married to a chauvinistic popular elitism, in which every member of society is superior to outsiders by virtue of belonging to the in-group. Eco sees in these attitudes the root of a deep tension in the fundamentally hierarchical structure of fascist polities, as they encourage leaders to despise their underlings, up to the ultimate Leader who holds the whole country in contempt for having allowed him to overtake it by force.
  11. "Everybody is Educated to Become a Hero", which leads to the embrace of a cult of death. As Eco observes, "[t]he Ur-Fascist hero is impatient to die. In his impatience, he more frequently sends other people to death."
  12. "Machismo", which sublimates the difficult work of permanent war and heroism into the sexual sphere. Fascists thus hold "both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality."
  13. "Selective Populism" – The People, conceived monolithically, have a Common Will, distinct from and superior to the viewpoint of any individual. As no mass of people can ever be truly unanimous, the Leader holds himself out as the interpreter of the popular will (though truly he dictates it). Fascists use this concept to delegitimize democratic institutions they accuse of "no longer represent[ing] the Voice of the People."
  14. "Newspeak" – Fascism employs and promotes an impoverished vocabulary in order to limit critical reasoning.

See?!?? We told you all! 

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19 minutes ago, Janet Voxel said:

Can we just get the elephant in the room out of the way here? "I'm not an American, but...." is saying "I'm a right winger similar to a Trumpist in my country and I feel...." in this context. It's not magical debate armour.

 

To whom are you referring?  I did say a few pages back that I'm not an American, but I don't fit comfortably into right-or-left-wing politics.  If I must be categorised under that system then I'd probably be in the middle.

I did also say that I believe both sides are as corrupt as each other.  Anything I add to this topic is most certainly not to support either.

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5 hours ago, Alwin Alcott said:

however less activ in blocking i do it too.. and not only to avoid to see the posts, but more the constant hacking, sucking, demonising, flaming( direct and indirect) to trigger responses that will deliver bans or suspensions.

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I have blocked a few people, simply due to them being ultra vile. 

However, he simply blocks anyone that argues with him more than a few times.  Oddly enough, I've actually agreed with some of his posts, but apparently that was offset by me adamantly arguing against him at times.

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20 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

Since you do not live in the US you do not know what it is really like here or what is really going on.

   It's not like our news media is plastered with 'Murrican politics, and like many of us have daily contact with friends, business associates and even partners in the US via the very thing you're using right now to communicate with a global audience. 

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36 minutes ago, Jackson Redstar said:

75 million voted Trump, or conservative. Labeling them all as fascists' or white nationalists or whatever is the very definition of bigotry.

If they still support him after his attempted insurrection to overturn the results of that election then they are supporting a fascist and deserve the label themselves. 

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18 minutes ago, Garnet Psaltery said:

To whom are you referring?  I did say a few pages back that I'm not an American, but I don't fit comfortably into right-or-left-wing politics.  If I must be categorised under that system then I'd probably be in the middle.

I did also say that I believe both sides are as corrupt as each other.  Anything I add to this topic is most certainly not to support either.

So let me ask you a question. What does both sides being corrupt have to do with an attempted coup? Are you somehow saying that the people attempting said coup were....somehow justified? 

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24 minutes ago, Garnet Psaltery said:

To whom are you referring?  I did say a few pages back that I'm not an American, but I don't fit comfortably into right-or-left-wing politics.  If I must be categorised under that system then I'd probably be in the middle.

I did also say that I believe both sides are as corrupt as each other.  Anything I add to this topic is most certainly not to support either.

 

1 minute ago, Janet Voxel said:

So let me ask you a question. What does both sides being corrupt have to do with an attempted coup? Are you somehow saying that the people attempting said coup were....somehow justified? 

I'm not commenting on any coup, attempted or otherwise.

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Just now, Janet Voxel said:

So.....what are you saying?

Well, that's your second question, and I'm sorry if what I said wasn't clear.  You made a general statement about non-Americans, and I wished to remove myself from that judgement.

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