Filing an AR (Disclosure)

[Raevyn Addams]

I'm not even sure where to ask to be honest and reading the wiki has left me with a few doubts so I thought I was ask for general opinions here. At least that way I'll know if I am wasting LL's time or not.

Okay so to quote LL's Terms of Service/Community Standards here; https://www.lindenlab.com/legal/community-standards

Quote

Disclosure

Sharing personal information about other users, either directly or indirectly, without their consent—including, but not limited to, gender, religion, age, marital status, race, sexual orientation, alternate account names (including account statuses, such as whether it is on hold, suspended, or active), and real-world location beyond what is provided by them in their user profile—is not allowed. Except for the purpose of reporting abuse or any violation of policies to Linden Lab, the remote monitoring, posting or sharing of conversations without a participant’s consent are prohibited.

This relates to alternate accounts, specifically.

If someone tells others the identity of your alternate account, that's a clear case of above/Disclosure, correct? But what if they tell others of accounts they suspect are alts?

Not; "I think that *name here* is Rae".

It's "Did you know *name here* is Rae? She told me years ago. I was just telling *their friend's name* about it. I thought everyone knew? " (Not true).

Having alts is one thing. Being accused of being an alt, or having an alt, and having that repeated to any who will listen seems like another matter. It's also incredibly frustrating.

Because someone has it in mind that I am someone else that then automatically entitles them to my real life information? I'm supposed to step out of my comfort zone and voice with a stranger, or send a real life photograph, or have a Skype chat just to set their mind at ease? What exactly constitutes as proof that can't be tampered with (such as Photoshop or flat out Catfishing anyway)? Why should I disclose anything in a virtual world where one is encouraged to be whatever they want to be... provided I tell anyone what they want to know. That defeats the purpose of being here in Second Life, doesn't it?

Ignoring this person or what they say doesn't work. I blocked them years ago when it first started and we haven't spoken a word since but the rumours keep persisting. That was over FIVE years ago in fact and it's just now reared its ugly head again. I'm not alone in all this. A few of my closest friends are also implicated and for one of them, after reporting a virtual stalker in SL for over two years and having nothing done about it (and subsequently having a nervous breakdown because of it) I think this may be the final straw.

For one final insult, the friends that told me what was said would, according to the same rules covered in the ToS/CS, get into trouble/a warning for trying to help. So I can't AR without sacrificing them which puts me in a precarious situation.

I'm sure Linden Lab doesn't really care too much about this sort of thing as no doubt it's a case of "he said/she said" (even with IM logs, and who is to say they don't assume both sides have edited them anyway) and there are bigger issues to deal with in the entirety of Second Life. I'm just not sure what else can be done to stop this person's toxicity beyond just deleting my account and walking away for good. Legally, realistically, what can be done?

😔

Edited February 21, 2020 by RaeLeeH
Typos.

[Garnet Psaltery]

15 minutes ago, RaeLeeH said:

For one final insult, the friends that told me what was said would, according to the same rules covered in the ToS/CS, get into trouble/a warning for trying to help. So I can't AR without sacrificing them which puts me in a precarious situation.

I'm sure Linden Lab doesn't really care too much about this sort of thing as no doubt it's a case of "he said/she said" (even with IM logs, and who is to say they don't assume both sides have edited them anyway) and there are bigger issues to deal with in the entirety of Second Life. I'm just not sure what else can be done to stop this person's toxicity beyond just deleting my account and walking away for good. Legally, realistically, what can be done?

😔

I'm sorry you're having such trouble.  I can't offer you a complete solution to the problem but I can tell you a couple of things which might ease your mind a little.

If your friend talked to you outside of SL's platforms (the viewer, the website, or other places LL runs) then LL have no interest in it or power over it.

LL have the actual chat and IM logs so could easily cross-check any copies sent to them.

Having said that, however, there's no guarantee an AR will get you a useful result.  By all means both of you send in ARs but it might be that all you can do just now is try hard to ignore the toxic person until they lose interest in you.

[Rhonda Huntress]

30 minutes ago, RaeLeeH said:

For one final insult, the friends that told me what was said would, according to the same rules covered in the ToS/CS, get into trouble/a warning for trying to help. So I can't AR without sacrificing them which puts me in a precarious situation.

 

30 minutes ago, RaeLeeH said:

Except for the purpose of reporting abuse or any violation of policies to Linden Lab, the remote monitoring, posting or sharing of conversations without a participant’s consent are prohibited.

Of course this means your friends would have to be the ones to report.  In fact, get everyone involved to AR.

Other that that, there is little you can do

 

[Raevyn Addams]

6 minutes ago, Garnet Psaltery said:

I'm sorry you're having such trouble.  I can't offer you a complete solution to the problem but I can tell you a couple of things which might ease your mind a little.

If your friend talked to you outside of SL's platforms (the viewer, the website, or other places LL runs) then LL have no interest in it or power over it.

LL have the actual chat and IM logs so could easily cross-check any copies sent to them.

Having said that, however, there's no guarantee an AR will get you a useful result.  By all means both of you send in ARs but it might be that all you can do just now is try hard to ignore the toxic person until they lose interest in you.

Thanks for that, Garnet. I didn't know that about the cross-checking so that's something at least. Sadly my friends and I did talk in SL so that is LL jurisdiction, and I can't imagine interest going away any time soon. It's been five years already. Were I to report I don't expect much to come from it,just as it hasn't as I've continued to ignore, hence my frustration. In an ideal world the troublemaker would move along but reality doesn't work that way. Some people just enjoy causing problems and no amount of patience or logic will change it. Sadly. Thanks for your reply.

1 minute ago, Rhonda Huntress said:

Of course this means your friends would have to be the ones to report.  In fact, get everyone involved to AR.

Other that that, there is little you can do

That may be the only thing I can do, or we can do. Just wish there was an actual solution. I really don't hold out much hope. My friend who was stalked submitted AR's for a long time and there was far more "proof" and harm caused then and nothing happened at all. The whole thing just kills my urge to be here/log in at all. Thanks for replying too. 

[Tolya Ugajin]

This is the lousiest sort of behavior in SL.

My advice is, file an AR.  At worst (and most likely) nothing will happen.  But, if you don't, then certainly nothing will happen.  I could argue either side of the ToS question, but to what point?  Neither I, nor anyone here, can make the argument matter - but the Linden who handles your AR can, so do it.

I've fought the "he's your alt!" battle - it's not winnable.  You can't prove you're not.  No matter WHAT you share with them, it won't be enough, because there is ALWAYS a way to respond with, "well you still could be because ______".  If someone won't take your word for it, then they aren't willing to trust you enough to make them worth your time.  And you can't stop the person who is saying what they are saying from continuing to say it.

I'm sorry for your troubles.

[Rhonda Huntress]

happy happy

joy joy

 

Edited February 21, 2020 by Rhonda Huntress
I sobered up

[Scylla Rhiadra]

27 minutes ago, RaeLeeH said:

If someone tells others the identity of your alternate account, that's a clear case of above/Disclosure, correct? But what if they tell others of accounts they suspect are alts?

So, what you mean, I think, is . . . is it a violation of the TOS and CS if someone claims you have an alt, and are wrong? That is, if they aren't really disclosing confidential information, it's not really a violation of the CS?

It's a kind of weird problem, isn't it? In theory, if you are only violating the TOS by spreading factually correct info about alts, getting punished for that serves as confirmation that you were right. In practice, though, I suspect that LL applies the rules more loosely than that, and on a case-by-case basis.

Unfortunately, I also think that they don't apply the penalties very often, except in really extreme cases. But it's worth a shot.

3 minutes ago, RaeLeeH said:

Just wish there was an actual solution. I really don't hold out much hope. My friend who was stalked submitted AR's for a long time and there was far more "proof" and harm caused then and nothing happened at all. The whole thing just kills my urge to be here/log in at all.

I really and truly wish to god there were better tools for dealing with harassment and stalking yourself, without having to rely on LL and the AR. In practical terms, however, it's hard to imagine what these might look like, and some of the possibilities could actually become weapons exploited by griefers and harassers.

Probably the most effective way of dealing with it is to use such tools as are available, such as mute, block, and AR, and make a conscious decision not to let the crap bother you too much. If you've got friends who are feeding into it, ask them to stop. If they don't, drop them: they aren't real friends. But mostly, if you can (and I know from personal experience how hard it can be) toughen yourself up emotionally and intellectually so that the garbage just bounces off you. It's not easy to do -- probably not everyone can do it, at least not in every case -- but in the long term, it will make you stronger and more resilient, and it puts you in control: because whatever else they can do, they can't change how you think about yourself unless you let them.

I'm sorry, that seems hopelessly inadequate advice. The other thing is to identify the friends who are unreservedly in your corner. I know you've got those; some of them are here, and they include me. Lean on us a bit if you need to.

[Paul Hexem]

The nice thing about SL is that we have mute, block, and that little X at the top right. 

Those options are always enough to avoid drama. We never have to deal with anything here that we don't want to.

If a blocked person is still spreading rumors with your friends, your friends need to learn to block too. If it's with random nobodies, then who cares. They're nobodies. 

[Mollymews]

34 minutes ago, Gadget Portal said:

If a blocked person is still spreading rumors with your friends, your friends need to learn to block too

^^ this

friends who gossip to us about what some person we have blocked has said about us need a friends check

i have been present when somebody has asked someone else to relay what they are saying about the person who has them blocked, to that person. And unfortunately some gossips put into the middle of these situations revel in the drama and do it

when this happens I will always tell the gossip to stfu as well as telling the blocked person talking chit to stfu as well

 

 

[LittleMe Jewell]

10 hours ago, RaeLeeH said:

This relates to alternate accounts, specifically.

If someone tells others the identity of your alternate account, that's a clear case of above/Disclosure, correct? But what if they tell others of accounts they suspect are alts?

Not; "I think that *name here* is Rae".

It's "Did you know *name here* is Rae? She told me years ago. I was just telling *their friend's name* about it. I thought everyone knew? " (Not true).

If "name here" really is not an alt of Rae, then they are not really violating the TOS - are they?  They TOS says that it is a violation to share info about your alt accounts, but if it really is not you, then it truly is just speculation.  That's how I read it anyway. 

However, IMO, it never hurts to AR something that you think might violate the TOS.  Just be sure to provide enough details so that LL can trace things through.  If nothing happens, then either LL does not have enough info or they do not agree that there is a TOS violation.  Unfortunately, since they do not respond back on ARs, there is no way for you to know which.  Every time it comes up, just AR it again.  Unfortunately, I don't really think that there is anything else you can do.

 

 

[Lindal Kidd]

It may not be "disclosure" in the strict sense of the word, because the information they're disclosing is untrue.

But it's "harassment".

 

[Solar Legion]

As Lindal notes above, if the account(s) in question truly aren't your Alts then Disclosure does not apply.

Send in an Abuse Report concerning harassment instead.

[Beth Macbain]

Also, depending on what form the harassment takes, and what is said, it's entirely possible they are breaking actual laws (I've been studying up on this lately). You may not know their RL information, and you don't have to. Law enforcement will happily serve whatever entity owns the platform (i.e. Linden Lab) being used to transmit the harassment a nice little subpoena for those records, and the entity (i.e. Linden Lab) is happy to cooperate with law enforcement and hand that information right over. 

I'm also with the others who are advising you to consider what motivation your "friends" have to telling you this stuff. What purpose does it serve other than to hurt you? Why are they even in positions to be told the things they're telling you? If they are your friend, and they know this person is harassing you, why haven't they also cut that person off?

[Pussycat Catnap]

I'm not sure outing alts is a violation of disclosure or any other rule... but I'll defer to others on that.

I'm always baffled by all this alt drama...

I have a lot of alts... I'm sure some of them think I'm their alt... but... what is the big deal...

 

[Rhonda Huntress]

13 hours ago, RaeLeeH said:

Sharing personal information about other users, either directly or indirectly, without their consent—including, but not limited to, gender, religion, age, marital status, race, sexual orientation, alternate account names (including account statuses, such as whether it is on hold, suspended, or active), and real-world location beyond what is provided by them in their user profile—is not allowed.

 

[Sister Nova]

Don't let them run you out of SL RaeLee.

AR, mute, block and just enjoy doing the things that please you here.

[Ivanova Shostakovich]

   It’s a violation of both the TOS and CS, regardless of whether or not the disclosed information is correct. Intent, acted upon, IS the violation. In any case, AR it, if it’s important to you. 
   In the end though, LL is the final arbiter. 

[Adam Spark]

I'm reminded of a quote.

"Don't tell me what others have said about me. Tell me why they felt comfortable telling you"

Or to paraphrase better for this situation: "Don't tell me what others have said about me. Tell me why you seem to believe them."

Another quote: "Those who matter don't mind, and those who mind don't matter".

So yeah, people think you are so-and-so. Remind yourself that changes nothing about you and your life and keep being you.

Last quote: "Let em talk"

[Raevyn Addams]

Thanks to all for the advice, comments and suggestions. Since the situation falls under harassment more than anything, my next question is more what happens after the Abuse Report has been filed?

From the wiki I know Linden Lab don't give feedback on any actions they've deemed appropriate to take (if any at all), but it's more a question of what happens to the instigator or harasser if action is deemed to be warranted? Assuming they even are warned, there's no naming of names is there (as in who filed the AR against them)? And if there aren't how is this person expected to quit their antics with me, again assuming that like most bullies there would be more than one target in their proverbial cross hairs? Does the warning state the reason why one has been warned in order for some lesson to be learned, or is it something else entirely?

I'm sincerely dubious much will amount from this, and not convinced in the slightest that the bully will change their ways after all these years and for the situation to be resolved. Worst case scenario there's nothing stopping them from creating an alt account and returning to pick up where they left off - though I can only imagine that would happen in the most extreme of cases, and this wouldn't be it. But for what it's worth I am following the appropriate channels and hoping for the best.

It would be nice if there was no need for ARs in the first place but since commonsense and common courtesy are misnomers (especially on the internet) it's pointless to dream otherwise.

^😟^

Edited February 22, 2020 by RaeLeeH

[Alwin Alcott]

13 minutes ago, RaeLeeH said:

Can't we all just get along? 😟

retorical i hope... because eh.. well, look at the news .. no difference in SL.
 

13 minutes ago, RaeLeeH said:

but it's more a question of what happens to the instigator or harasser

gets a email with the taken action .. for example a notice for being on hold for investigation or a temp or def ban
As mentioned often on the Answers, also sometimes in GD, the warning messages are very general, you mostly have to guess what you really did wrong ..so appeal to it is nearly impossible ( of course when griefing or horrible harrasment... it's mostly quite obvious.

Edited February 22, 2020 by Alwin Alcott

[LittleMe Jewell]

4 hours ago, RaeLeeH said:

From the wiki I know Linden Lab don't give feedback on any actions they've deemed appropriate to take (if any at all), but it's more a question of what happens to the instigator or harasser if action is deemed to be warranted? Assuming they even are warned, there's no naming of names is there (as in who filed the AR against them)? And if there aren't how is this person expected to quit their antics with me, again assuming that like most bullies there would be more than one target in their proverbial cross hairs? Does the warning state the reason why one has been warned in order for some lesson to be learned, or is it something else entirely?

I'm sincerely dubious much will amount from this, and not convinced in the slightest that the bully will change their ways after all these years and for the situation to be resolved. Worst case scenario there's nothing stopping them from creating an alt account and returning to pick up where they left off - though I can only imagine that would happen in the most extreme of cases, and this wouldn't be it. But for what it's worth I am following the appropriate channels and hoping for the best.

IF LL takes any action, then the person will get an email saying something general about violating the TOS.  The email will contain that section on harassment, but will not be specific about exactly what they did.  The person can then get anywhere from a warning to a short term ban from SL to a permanent ban.  I'm not actually sure if warnings are given inworld like they are here in the forums, so that part might or might not be applicable.  

If they go the route of a permanent ban - unlikely unless the person has already had multiple short term bans - then they can sometimes get around it via alts. However, from word of mouth, LL has been known to do IP and MAC address bans before, and that would make it harder (but not impossible) to get an alt logged in.

[Sylvia Tamalyn]

20 hours ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

I'm not sure outing alts is a violation of disclosure or any other rule... but I'll defer to others on that.

I'm always baffled by all this alt drama...

I have a lot of alts... I'm sure some of them think I'm their alt... but... what is the big deal...

 

My alts do nothing but hand over their land allowances and stipends to me, so personally I couldn't  care less who knows about them. However, I am positive that there are people in SL who have alt accounts to do things they aren't willing to do (for whatever reason) with their main accounts, and that being the case, it's important to them not to be outed.

One example: Someone makes a "pleasure alt" for the purposes of sexy times. You and I might not care who knows what about what pose balls we might hop on, but some people are very private or embarrassed even by that sort of thing. I'm sure there are plenty of other reasons one might want their alt account info to not be in the headlines, but there's one reason for you.

[Adam Spark]

6 hours ago, RaeLeeH said:

Thanks to all for the advice, comments and suggestions. Since the situation falls under harassment more than anything, my next question is more what happens after the Abuse Report has been filed?

From the wiki I know Linden Lab don't give feedback on any actions they've deemed appropriate to take (if any at all), but it's more a question of what happens to the instigator or harasser if action is deemed to be warranted? Assuming they even are warned, there's no naming of names is there (as in who filed the AR against them)? And if there aren't how is this person expected to quit their antics with me, again assuming that like most bullies there would be more than one target in their proverbial cross hairs? Does the warning state the reason why one has been warned in order for some lesson to be learned, or is it something else entirely?

I'm sincerely dubious much will amount from this, and not convinced in the slightest that the bully will change their ways after all these years and for the situation to be resolved. Worst case scenario there's nothing stopping them from creating an alt account and returning to pick up where they left off - though I can only imagine that would happen in the most extreme of cases, and this wouldn't be it. But for what it's worth I am following the appropriate channels and hoping for the best.

It would be nice if there was no need for ARs in the first place but since commonsense and common courtesy are misnomers (especially on the internet) it's pointless to dream otherwise.

^😟^

Hopefully seeing the Lab get involved will send a message to them, regardless of them knowing it was you or exactly what they did. Having said that, I know most nefarious individuals couldn't care less, but there is always hope.

And if nothing changes, file another. Had they been warned the first time, consequences will escalate.

If nothing else, it will send a message that you are dismissing (for lack of a better word, perhaps) their harassment personally and letting the lab deal with it. They might just go away at the implication that you are doing something about it as opposed to letting them win.

[MoiraKathleen]

If they received some action by LL, and even though LL does not release any info about who filed the AR, the person could put 2 + 2 together if you had been the only person they had been harassing.  However, it should also send a message to them that you are not going to be intimidated and that you will take action through the system. If they should come back at you afterwords, then I would certainly file an AR about that to keep the pressure on them.

I really hope that this situation lessens and disappears, or is able to be mitigated in some way, so that your time in SL can remain pleasurable for you. 

[Alwin Alcott]

1 minute ago, moirakathleen said:

However, it should also send a message to them that you are not going to be intimidated and that you will take action through the system

sending nothing and act without notice is better i think, and of course having them muted when the original issue happened prevents a lot of drama.
All responds are triggers to start again.