Tilia takes over

[Parhelion Palou]

6 minutes ago, J0nny05 said:

Agreed, but with the further information provided not only can your Lindon Account be taken over, but now RL Identity theft is in the realms of possibility.

All I am suggesting is that instead of forcing all people to provide this level of detailed personal information only those wanting to convert LL to RL need to provide it. Otherwise it's just another "game".

You can convert Lindens to dollars and not provide a bit of personal information so long as you don't then do a process credit to move the dollars to PayPal. When you do that, you do need to provide the information. Go back to about a third of the way down page 5 and read the FAQ LL provided in a post.

 

[piffy Difference]

Will you receive a W2 Form from Tillia , if you are cashing out your linden? Just curious.

It is rather confusing at this time, but I guess we will know soon enough.

Edited July 2, 2019 by piffy Difference

[Victorian Magic]

https://www.coindesk.com/fincen-says-some-dapps-are-subject-to-u-s-money-transmitter-rules

If you REALLY want to know the laws,   click the links and google the terms in above article. Not saying Linden is a dapp but this article had good terms and links.

 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

14 minutes ago, J0nny05 said:

All I am suggesting is that instead of forcing all people to provide this level of detailed personal information only those wanting to convert LL to RL need to provide it.

But that is in fact the case now. You don't need to provide this information unless you are cashing out L$ to US$.

From the LL post on Page 5:

Quote

Can you clarify whether there are ID requirements and fees for basic Linden Dollar purchases?

These changes apply to USD credit processing and do not have any impact on the routine purchasing of Linden Dollars. Only Second Life Residents who Process Credit (cash out) of their USD balance to their payment method (e.g. PayPal)  are impacted by the ID verification requirements (which are necessary for compliance with U.S. laws and regulations).  The inactivity fee applies only to those accounts with USD balances which have not accessed their Tilia account in any way or had any credit processing transactions over a period of 12 months or more.

ETA: Damn, I'm just not fast enough tonight.

Edited July 2, 2019 by Scylla Rhiadra

[J0nny05]

Thanks everyone!... I think this has indeed addressed my concerns as long as I don't need to provide this information ahead of time.

[CheriColette]

35 minutes ago, Parhelion Palou said:

 Do you require one now? Someone who gets your SL password today would have the same ability.

I know and I said I had already raised this with LL in the past. Just thought Id throw it in the ring again here since we are discussing the safety of our money. 

[LittleMe Jewell]

19 minutes ago, J0nny05 said:

Agreed, but with the further information provided not only can your Lindon Account be taken over, but now RL Identity theft is in the realms of possibility.

All I am suggesting is that instead of forcing all people to provide this level of detailed personal information only those wanting to convert LL to RL need to provide it. Otherwise it's just another "game".

You are missing something.  It really is ONLY the ones that want to cash out their money to their PayPal account that has to provide this info.  

Nobody else has to do anything at all except agree to the Tilia TOS on August 1st.

[J0nny05]

1 minute ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

You are missing something.  It really is ONLY the ones that want to cash out their money to their PayPal account that has to provide this info.  

Nobody else has to do anything at all except agree to the Tilia TOS on August 1st.

Yep. I've got it now Thanks

[LittleMe Jewell]

11 minutes ago, piffy Difference said:

Will you receive a W2 Form from Tillia , if you are cashing out your linden? Just curious.

It is rather confusing at this time, but I guess we will know soon enough.

Actually, I don't think it is a W-2, but some other Tax form and yes, LL already sends them to people that cash out over a certain amount of money.

 

 

 

8 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

But that is in fact the case now. You don't need to provide this information unless you are cashing out L$ to US$.

From the LL post on Page 5:

ETA: Damn, I'm just not fast enough tonight.

Ditto - I responded from the previous page before getting to this page and seeing it already done, twice.

[Selene Gregoire]

25 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

As much as I've spoken out against LL's poor security practices, I have to admit they have a better record of keeping our info secure than a lot of much larger and supposedly more secure organizations.

When Equifax got hacked here the first time that millions of people worldwide were affected, Equifax hired Epiq Systems. I worked in the Epiq call center during that. I quit before it was over because Equifax was using the hack to line their pockets. Sure you got the service for free... for one year only. After that you had to pay for it and the offer was through a subsidary company. On top of that, we couldn't actually help the people calling in and they wanted us to lie. That last bit is the topper that made me quit.

[LittleMe Jewell]

31 minutes ago, Victorian Magic said:

https://www.theinfatuation.com/minneapolis/reviews/tilia

 

Haha - perfect.  Apparently a bit pricey, but really good reviews.

[norajulian]

So. If I get deployed for over a year, I should plan on shutting everything down or lose my funds that I might rack up... because it will get eaten? 

Nice. 

*makes a grouch face and stares at her screen*

I’m also guessing that this means that the funds that our dearly departed SL users (or those who have stores on their allotted mainland parcels who have left yet still sell items) who have had made or continue to make will be absorbed by LL? Or will this not happen since they would technically be unable to accept terms and services of Tilia? I’m curious. 

Edited July 2, 2019 by norajulian

[Blueberryxx]

1 minute ago, norajulian said:

So. If I get deployed for over a year, I should plan on shutting everything down or lose my funds that I might rack up... because it will get eaten? 

Nice. 

It says USD balance, not linden balance. You know how you convert your lindens to USD? If you leave cash in there for 12 months not even logging in, there will be fees. Your linden dollars are safe.

[Prokofy Neva]

7 hours ago, animats said:

I've been reading the terms for "Tilia". Some notes:

• There's mention of some Tilia "token", as a store of value that doesn't have value. Is this the Linden Dollar? Or is LL getting into the cryptocurrency business, like some other virtual worlds. (That didn't end well.) It looks like they mean Linden Dollars, but it's not clearly specified.
• "Should either you or Tilia elect to resolve the Dispute by way of binding arbitration, the arbitration shall proceed in accordance with the then-current Commercial Arbitration Rules of the American Arbitration Association ("AAA"), except that in no event shall the arbitration proceed as a class or representative action."   The fee for a commercial arbitration starts at $925.
• "NO VALUE, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, IS GUARANTEED OR WARRANTED WITH RESPECT TO ANY CONTENT, INCLUDING VIRTUAL TOKENS OR STORED VALUE BALANCES." "The Tilia Service is subject to scheduled and unscheduled service interruptions and loss of server data, which you do not own and for which you will not hold us liable."
• "Unless Tilia elects to refund the balance of your Stored Value Account, you shall not be entitled to any compensation or other payment, remedy, recourse or refund upon terminating your Account."
• "If you accumulate more value in your Stored Value Account than you need to pay amounts associated with the use of the Provider’s Platform, Tilia may, in its discretion and subject to its agreement with the relevant Provider, allow you to request a refund from the Stored Value Balance. Subject to your compliance with Tilia’s Terms, you may be permitted to request that Tilia process a credit from your Stored Value Balance, in an amount equal to all or a portion of the available funds associated with your Stored Value Balance, to your PayPal account or other account permitted by Tilia. Tilia, in its sole discretion, will approve or deny your request. "
• "Virtual Tokens may not be purchased or sold outside of any In-Platform Exchange. Any purchase of Virtual Tokens from anywhere other than the In-Platform Exchange is not permitted and is considered a violation of these Terms which may result in suspension or termination of your Account."

These are terrible terms for a financial service. It looks like they can take your assets whenever they want to. What this seems to add up to is that withdrawing money from SL is going to become much harder and much riskier. Anyone getting significant revenue from SL needs to talk to a lawyer. Now.

I think you must never have studied Linden Lab's Terms of Service.

https://www.lindenlab.com/tos

"You acknowledge that it is your responsibility to ensure payment in advance for all paid aspects of the Service, and to ensure that your credit or debit cards or other payment instruments accepted by Linden Lab or an applicable Payment Service Provider continue to be valid and sufficient for such purposes. Payments made with a United States-based payment instrument will be charged by Linden Research, Inc. Payments made with payments instruments based outside of the United States will be charged by Tilia Branch UK Ltd., which is located at 11-12 St. James's Square, Suite 1, 3rd Floor, London, United Kingdom SW1Y 4LB.

Linden Lab may offer you the opportunity (directly or through an applicable Payment Service Provider) to purchase or use virtual credits, points, tokens, services, or items ("Virtual Goods and Services"). Linden Lab may modify, revalue, or make the Virtual Goods and Services more or less common, valuable, effective, or functional. Virtual credits, points, or tokens as further described in each applicable Product Policy ("Virtual Tender") associated with your Account that were purchased with U.S. dollars or other accepted fiat currency may be used or exchanged before Virtual Tender associated with your Account that was not purchased (e.g., Virtual Tender that was earned through experiential play), no matter when that Virtual Tender was acquired. Except as set forth in any Additional Terms (such as any refund policies that may apply to a subscription service) or above with respect to Usage Subscriptions, if Linden Lab modifies, suspends or terminates any Usage Subscription or Virtual Goods and Services (including any Virtual Tender), then you will forfeit your rights to the modified, suspended, or terminated Usage Subscription or Virtual Goods and Services. Likewise, except as set forth above, in any Additional Terms, or as required by applicable law, Linden Lab is not responsible for repairing, replacing or restoring access to your Usage Subscription, or Virtual Goods and Services (including any Virtual Space or other Virtual Tender associated with each Product, as further described in an applicable Product Policy), or providing you with any credit or refund or any other sum, in the event of: (a) Linden Lab's change, suspension or termination of any Usage Subscription or Virtual Goods and Services (including any Virtual Space or other Virtual Tender associated with each Product, as further described in an applicable Product Policy); or (b) for loss or damage due to Website or Server error, or any other reason."

There is nothing new in their mailing about Tilia today. Tilia has already been their division handling subscriptions and payments for years.

The LL TOS already talks about tokens, i.e. the Linden dollar and has for years:

The language about inactive accounts and fees is no different than numerous other financial services, starting with banks:

https://www.mybanktracker.com/news/inactive-bank-accounts

Long ago (14 years ago?) LL declared that all other outside parties selling or buying or converting Linden dollars were invalid and all such agencies, like Anshe Chung or Gaming Open Market ceased to operate because LL wouldn't recognize them. There is nothing new here.

Far from being "terrible" terms, these terms were *necessary* for LL to comply with existing banking and finance laws. They're also not new. It's just that they are presented in a focused and distilled way with the addition of the tax identification or Social Security number.

It strikes me that like other developments of the past, whether the declaration of gambling as illegal when US law changed, or the collection of VAT to stay in compliance with European law, those SL businesses that function like real-life businesses and have real names in particular, and established practices, accounts, etc. will find nothing new in this and nothing onerous. In fact, many people outside the US do have passports, as it is more common for them to have this as a form of identification.  Anyone in any significant business that earns enough to cash out will likely have a RL counterpart.

But very small businesses of the type that are run by anonymous avatars with PayPal accounts that don't clearly hook up to any known business may face difficulties. Yes, it seems that LL will make it harder to cash out. But if you can't provide a real name, government ID, address, and tax ID number to a business providing you a payment, why do you imagine that you can go on existing in the real world? 

It's funny when 3000+ complained about doubling of the cashout cost, the forums regulars including some in this thread denounced them as somehow failing to realize that "LL is a business" and "LL isn't a charity" and "LL can't run a unicorn realm". But when people are asked to supply the exact same information you supply in RL to open up a business account even just on PayPal, let alone a real bricks-and-mortar bank (ID, Social Security #, valid address), there is some outrage as if something illegal or horrible has occurred. It hasn't. And any lawyer will explain this to you.

[Blueberryxx]

1 hour ago, piffy Difference said:

Will you receive a W2 Form from Tillia , if you are cashing out your linden? Just curious.

We get 1099 tax form. 

[Vanagew]

This line also greatly concerns me:

 

"THESE TERMS CONTAIN AN ARBITRATION PROVISION THAT AUTHORIZES EITHER PARTY TO ELECT MANDATORY AND BINDING ARBITRATION OF CERTAIN DISPUTES. "

 

Forced arbitration is used in order to lengthen litigation, meaning the party that is the poorest party takes the biggest financial hit (lawyers fees ect).

 

If you use certain Tilia Services, federal and state law requires that Tilia verify your identity. This means that Tilia may require you to provide your name, street address, date of birth, social security number, and other information that will allow us to identify you. We may also ask to see a copy of your driver’s license or other documents at any time.

 

This seems incredibly heavy handed with a lot of "may" words in it. Before anyone agrees to that you'll need to provide some clarification on what kind of scenarios would require us to provide government identification, because it makes me very uneasy when I read this.

Edited July 2, 2019 by Vanagew

[Wulfie Reanimator]

22 minutes ago, Vanagew said:

If you use certain Tilia Services, federal and state law requires that Tilia verify your identity. This means that Tilia may require you to provide your name, street address, date of birth, social security number, and other information that will allow us to identify you. We may also ask to see a copy of your driver’s license or other documents at any time.

Sure why don't you come into my house, sit down on my sofa, drink my beer and gather all kinds of info on me that you NEVER NEEDED BEFORE. Do you want to set up some cameras to monitor me as I go to and from work LL?

These are all things Linden Lab has already been requesting under certain circumstances, especially when they're going out of their way to verify your identity because of suspicious behavior.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

I think that whoever wrote the two Linden Lab posts here responding, in simple and accessible language, to some of the questions and concerns raised here deserves credit for doing an excellent job. Although there are still some important questions to be answered, and some fears to be allayed, my sense is that most of the really vital issues raised but not really addressed in the initial blog post have been answered. Mostly, I think, we know now that this is not going to impact on most of us very much, if at all, and that the changes that will be felt by some are mandated by US law. So, well and good.

BUT . . . (and this is the forums, so you knew there'd be a "but," right?) . . .

. . . WHY on earth didn't LL anticipate that their opaque and quasi-legalese blog post was going to provoke this kind of reaction? WHY not be proactive, and provide a really effective FAQ (as opposed to the one linked to on the blog post, which is barely better than the post itself) from the outset, rather than waiting for the inevitable panic and dismay before providing clarifications and explanations in Real People Speak?

So much good angst wasted, that could have been better employed on houseboats! I feel cheated somehow.

 

Dear @Linden Lab: We need to talk.

Seriously. You're not new to this. Take a look at the responses to your blog post: as of my writing this, the responses to it consist of exactly 2 "likes," 3 "thank yous," 1 "Haha," . . . and 37 "confused" and 48 "sads."

Not so good, right?

And what can we learn from this? Maybe that you should anticipate that there is going to be dismay and confusion, and preemptively address it at the same time that you post the original blog? And, maybe also, that the official forums are a good place to do this? Why not create a thread here, simultaneously with the official blog announcement, and provide the kind of information that you eventually did, after your customers had burst arteries?

 

(This initial consultation is free, cuz I love you. But you should know that I am available for further PR advice, and my rates are very reasonable. All I want in return is . . . a houseboat.)

 

[Chic Aeon]

11 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

And what can we learn from this? Maybe that you should anticipate that there is going to be dismay and confusion, and preemptively address it at the same time that you post the original blog? And, maybe also, that the official forums are a good place to do this? Why not create a thread here, simultaneously with the official blog announcement, and provide the kind of information that you eventually did, after your customers had burst arteries?

This is the typical LL method for many years so not a surprise - anyone very old here can nod now. But what about the folks that DON'T read the forums. Forum folks are typically only 10 percent of a community. I have no idea what they are here but there are many more people that never come to the forums than do.  I talked to one VERY PROMINENT creator just now, and old timer who cashes out regularly for years and she didn't get an email. There will likely be oh so many people that find themselves faced with a surprising "sign or move on" pop up when they log in on August 1.   We had NO heads up at all in August of 2013. 

 

And a special thanks to the people here that bothered to read the TOS and the Privacy document. It makes me happy that some took the time. There are at least three lawyers that I know of (not mine)reading now and likely many more that I don't know of. They will probably not agree with each other, they  seldom did in 2013 :D.  But we can each decide for ourselves and map out our plan of action whatever it may be. 

 

Edited July 2, 2019 by Chic Aeon

[Beggar Mayo]

54 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

I think you must never have studied Linden Lab's Terms of Service.

https://www.lindenlab.com/tos

"You acknowledge that it is your responsibility to ensure payment in advance for all paid aspects of the Service, and to ensure that your credit or debit cards or other payment instruments accepted by Linden Lab or an applicable Payment Service Provider continue to be valid and sufficient for such purposes. Payments made with a United States-based payment instrument will be charged by Linden Research, Inc. Payments made with payments instruments based outside of the United States will be charged by Tilia Branch UK Ltd., which is located at 11-12 St. James's Square, Suite 1, 3rd Floor, London, United Kingdom SW1Y 4LB.

Linden Lab may offer you the opportunity (directly or through an applicable Payment Service Provider) to purchase or use virtual credits, points, tokens, services, or items ("Virtual Goods and Services"). Linden Lab may modify, revalue, or make the Virtual Goods and Services more or less common, valuable, effective, or functional. Virtual credits, points, or tokens as further described in each applicable Product Policy ("Virtual Tender") associated with your Account that were purchased with U.S. dollars or other accepted fiat currency may be used or exchanged before Virtual Tender associated with your Account that was not purchased (e.g., Virtual Tender that was earned through experiential play), no matter when that Virtual Tender was acquired. Except as set forth in any Additional Terms (such as any refund policies that may apply to a subscription service) or above with respect to Usage Subscriptions, if Linden Lab modifies, suspends or terminates any Usage Subscription or Virtual Goods and Services (including any Virtual Tender), then you will forfeit your rights to the modified, suspended, or terminated Usage Subscription or Virtual Goods and Services. Likewise, except as set forth above, in any Additional Terms, or as required by applicable law, Linden Lab is not responsible for repairing, replacing or restoring access to your Usage Subscription, or Virtual Goods and Services (including any Virtual Space or other Virtual Tender associated with each Product, as further described in an applicable Product Policy), or providing you with any credit or refund or any other sum, in the event of: (a) Linden Lab's change, suspension or termination of any Usage Subscription or Virtual Goods and Services (including any Virtual Space or other Virtual Tender associated with each Product, as further described in an applicable Product Policy); or (b) for loss or damage due to Website or Server error, or any other reason."

There is nothing new in their mailing about Tilia today. Tilia has already been their division handling subscriptions and payments for years.

The LL TOS already talks about tokens, i.e. the Linden dollar and has for years:

The language about inactive accounts and fees is no different than numerous other financial services, starting with banks:

https://www.mybanktracker.com/news/inactive-bank-accounts

Long ago (14 years ago?) LL declared that all other outside parties selling or buying or converting Linden dollars were invalid and all such agencies, like Anshe Chung or Gaming Open Market ceased to operate because LL wouldn't recognize them. There is nothing new here.

Far from being "terrible" terms, these terms were *necessary* for LL to comply with existing banking and finance laws. They're also not new. It's just that they are presented in a focused and distilled way with the addition of the tax identification or Social Security number.

It strikes me that like other developments of the past, whether the declaration of gambling as illegal when US law changed, or the collection of VAT to stay in compliance with European law, those SL businesses that function like real-life businesses and have real names in particular, and established practices, accounts, etc. will find nothing new in this and nothing onerous. In fact, many people outside the US do have passports, as it is more common for them to have this as a form of identification.  Anyone in any significant business that earns enough to cash out will likely have a RL counterpart.

But very small businesses of the type that are run by anonymous avatars with PayPal accounts that don't clearly hook up to any known business may face difficulties. Yes, it seems that LL will make it harder to cash out. But if you can't provide a real name, government ID, address, and tax ID number to a business providing you a payment, why do you imagine that you can go on existing in the real world? 

It's funny when 3000+ complained about doubling of the cashout cost, the forums regulars including some in this thread denounced them as somehow failing to realize that "LL is a business" and "LL isn't a charity" and "LL can't run a unicorn realm". But when people are asked to supply the exact same information you supply in RL to open up a business account even just on PayPal, let alone a real bricks-and-mortar bank (ID, Social Security #, valid address), there is some outrage as if something illegal or horrible has occurred. It hasn't. And any lawyer will explain this to you.

A very good and strong and based comment! To think about seriously, Linden Lab!

[Coffee Pancake]

6 hours ago, Blush Bravin said:

I cashed out Friday morning and the money was in my paypal by end of day Monday. That's pretty dang fast.

I've been waiting 8 days now ... 

[Beggar Mayo]

2 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

This is the typical LL method for many years so not a surprise - anyone very old here can nod now. But what about the folks that DON'T read the forums. Forum folks are typically only 10 percent of a community. I have no idea what they are here but there are many more people that never come to the forums than do.  I talked to one VERY PROMINENT creator just now, and old timer who cashes out regularly for years and she didn't get an email. There will likely be oh so many people that find themselves faced with a surprising "sign or move on" pop up when they log in on August 1.   We had NO heads up at all in August of 2013 (and I just realized both are AUGUST months. Hmmm). 

 

And a special thanks to the people here that bothered to read the TOS and the Privacy document. It makes me happy that some took the time. There are at least three lawyers that I know of (not mine)reading now and likely many more that I don't know of. They will probably not agree with each other, they  seldom did in 2013 :D.  But we can each decide for ourselves and map out our plan of action whatever it may be. 

 

Very well thought, Chic. But, perhaps between the preventions, all of us might see what will happen during the next month before react. I believe LL is taking note (we read posts above) of our concerns to take the precise steps before go ahead into a conflictive situation. I want to think that LL will provide us with the best agreement. I agree with you also, folks participating in this forums we are conscient about the tinny letters in the covenants (or no) but since we are discussing this we are alerting the others in the best interest of all. Is a way to stop any "mistake" or abuse.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

2 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

But what about the folks that DON'T read the forums. Forum folks are typically only 10 percent of a community. I have no idea what they are here but there are many more people that never come to the forums than do.

An excellent point. For a platform that is, in an important sense, about "communication," LL has never managed that kind of thing well . . . at least, not in my nearly 11 years.

I do notice that this forum thread has over 50% more views than the blog post -- and I'm going to guess that over half of the blog post views are from people coming to it from here. So the forums, I think, are generally a better communications tool than the blogs. They also have the advantage that they permit comments and questions, which LL can then respond to.

But you're absolutely right that the forum is not widely read either, so LL should certainly be employing other tools, including a notice through the viewer(s) before or at log-in. The email approach seems very hit and miss, but (if it worked properly) would also be useful. Does LL not have a way of sending out in-world notices to everyone on the grid, as per groups? If not, why not?

Really, they should be employing all of these methods. I do think, however, that any alternate methods they use should link back to the fuller discussion here or on the blog (which should, in turn, also link to the forums): those who are going to want more information are likely not going to be happy with the short form summary they are getting through other methods.

 

[CaMeRoN Messinez]

8 hours ago, Neural Blankes said:

Yet more grubby little hands involved with the money.  Lovely.

Seems to me that Linden Research is looking to destroy any use of their virtual world as supplementary income.

Exactly!

[Aliehs Alex]

Is LL preparing SL to be sold?

All this greedy actions against us the residents, looks like when you want to sell your car but first you fix things to make it look more attractive to the buyer. Is FB buying SL?

Are we paying the failed Sansar project?  

What's next?