Tilia takes over

[QueenGalaxia]

1 minute ago, Cindy Evanier said:

IF you leave amounts in your (currently called) US$ account (that is L$ you have sold to convert to real money) for a long period without transferring it out to paypal and without accessing your Tilia account then you will get a charge.  If you leave L$  in your account, this does not affect you.

Thank you for your quick response. that is helpful to know. Also, I don't feel right about having them know my social security and address, to me that feels like a violation of my privacy and potential risk of unknowns to come and be. *shrugs*  T_T i dont plan on ever converting lindens into money also so. i feel like having a Tilia account would be irrelevant for me. but ah well. 

[Lasher Oh]

2 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

You do not get provided with a unique national tax ID? My positive image of the Empire just got a mighty crack...

Ah ha - good question and therein lies the rub to my original post. A while back pre 2014, I think, others here will recall better than me, but we did have to provide rather detailed TAX information to LL before we could continue to cash-out. It required completing a standard form supplied by LL which at the time was also stated as an American government legality. I'm curious to know if I / we will have resubmit the same document a little further down the line.  My gut tells me yes.

[Naughtgelic Kira]

1 hour ago, Chic Aeon said:

Again I ask WHY everyone in Second Life needs to agree to Tilia's TOS and Privacy Policy when only a very small percentage of the citizenship will be using the service to cashout? 

 

"Effective August 1, in order to continue using Second Life you will have to agree to Tilia’s Terms of Service and Privacy Policy.  A Tilia Account associated with your Second Life Account will automatically be created for you and you will not need a separate username or password to access your Tilia Account."

Because its the only company that is handling your money inside SL. 

[Mollymews]

6 minutes ago, Lasher Oh said:

I have a regional government issued Bus pass with my photo on it - would that be permissible do you think?

why don't you submit it and find out

where I live we don't have SSNs or national ID cards either.  We have government-issued passports, driver licenses, and if a superannuitant then a Gold Card. So what do we do when we have none of these where I live ?

we get a copy of our birth certificate, two 3rd-party documents showing our name and current address - power bill, bank statement, credit card statement, etc. And character references from two people who will also attest that we are who we say we are. Then we go to a Justice of the Peace with these. The Justice of the Peace will attest in writing that they are satisfied that we are who we say we are and will stamp the document with their seal. A seal affixed with the authority of the Crown

in the UK then I would think that you would be able to do the same, as in the UK there are also Justice of the Peace and the Crown

[Evangeline Arcadia]

It's been said somewhere amongst the posts that those in the EU/UK have already been dealing with Tilia. If this is correct does this mean that those in UK who want to cash out lindens won't need to submit proof of ID? Not sure what info they would have already. If they have it does it need to be resubmitted or not?  And for EU generally what proof of ID would be required anyway?

@Linden Lab  a bit more clarification on how this affects those outside of the US would be welcome. If it's somewhere already I'd appreciate a pointer to it (haven't seen it myself so far, but could have missed it).

 

[Lasher Oh]

2 minutes ago, Mollymews said:

why don't you submit it and find out

where I live we don't have SSNs or national ID cards either.  We have government-issued passports, driver licenses, and if a superannuitant then a Gold Card. So what do we do when we have none of these where I live ?

we get a copy of our birth certificate, two 3rd-party documents showing our name and current address - power bill, bank statement, credit card statement, etc. And character references from two people who will also attest that we are who we say we are. Then we go to a Justice of the Peace with these. The Justice of the Peace will attest in writing that they are satisfied that we are who we say we are and will stamp the document with their seal. A seal affixed with the authority of the Crown

in the UK then I would think that you would be able to do the same, as in the UK there are also Justice of the Peace and the Crown

Thanks Molly I'm sure  I'm sure a lot of people will be grateful for your kind and more detailed information. For my part I have all the required documents likely to be required and have in the past submitted asked for Tax details. Nothing against actually. However I don't think that it is unreasonable to expect Sillier / Tilia or whatever they call themselves to provide some more comprehensive information other 'government issued documents" a link to a Wiki page or a detailed FAQ wouldn't go amiss would it? Especially for those (unlike you and me) who are rather in the dark. Surely more info is better than less?.

^L^

[EdmundPendragon]

16 minutes ago, Naughtgelic Kira said:

Because its the only company that is handling your money inside SL. 

I honestly do not understand your answer. I do not see it as answering the first question.

[Sabaat]

I can't even name one service I spend money on that requires the same level of information I use to get a job, pay taxation is theft quotas, buy a car, buy a firearm, get a CCW, buy a home, get health insurance, get car insurance, get home insurance etc. You know, things that alter your life and life style in a big way that have life changing aspects to buying or not buying them and the laws that surround them that affect not only your life but those around you. Unlike paying for internet bucks for a sex bed, meme dance or digital cloths etc

 

So, I do feel as if this is a bit of extortion, If I don't sign up with this new area that I have to make an account for and surrender private information to that has a false sense on security (Remember that not even the banking industry or big tech can keep your information or money safe.) If I request a deletion of this Tilia, Will it delete my account on SL? How much is this undisclosed charge because I didn't see it when searching for "$" in the FAQ's. Do I have to create a Paypal just to skip surrendering so much private information to? Will it eventually extend to Paypal? What laws and regulations are they referring to when they make that base claim with no link to such laws and regulations? Will they delete other forms of payment in the future? What are the pros to surrendering so much private information other than "You get to use a credit card and we might delete your account for any reason we choose and we may refund your money or hold onto your information for some reason or another, We don't know lol"

Edited July 2, 2019 by Sabaat

[Mollymews]

1 minute ago, Lasher Oh said:

 However I don't think that it is unreasonable to expect Sillier / Tilia or whatever they call themselves to provide some more comprehensive information other 'government issued documents" a link to a Wiki page or a detailed FAQ wouldn't go amiss would it? Especially for those (unlike you and me) who are rather in the dark. Surely more info is better than less?.

i get what you are saying about more info. I just think that given the number of countries there are, then I think "government-issued" documentation is a sufficient explanation

a thing is that its our money that's involved here, money we want to withdraw.  We do have to take some responsibility for this ourselves about what "government-issued" means in our own countries. We have had to understand this when we opened a bank account in our own country, in the instance when we never had a passport or drivers license. Without a bank account already then we have nothing in which to receive the money. So we have been thru this identification process already with the bank

[MALIFAX]

7 hours ago, Chic Aeon said:

So I have had wine (some cheap and now some better *wink*) and I had a lovely time in the garden which was CALMING.

 

Here is my bottom line thought.    

I understand why people that want to cash out would need a Tilia account and to go through all the verification steps (note that the privacy page says that you may need to give them credit report info????? What????) and all that jazz. Cashing out is an OPT IN action.

 

What I do NOT understand by any stretch of the imagination is why avatars (typists - people) that are NOT cashing out need to AUTOMATICALLY have a Tilia account that they DO NOT WANT. 

 

PLEASE ADDRESS THAT QUESTION oh Powers That Be. Thank you. 

Because big brother needs to watch you even CLOSER

[Kia Kiyori]

4 minutes ago, Sabaat said:

I can't even name one service I spend money on that requires the same level of information I use to get a job, pay taxation is theft quotas, buy a car, buy a firearm, get a CCW, buy a home, get health insurance, get car insurance, get home insurance etc. You know, things that alter your life and life style in a big way that have life changing aspects to buying or not buying them and the laws that surround them that affect not only your life but those around you. Unlike paying for internet bucks for a sex bed, meme dance or digital cloths etc

 

So, I do feel as if this is a bit of extortion, If I don't sign up with this new area that I have to make an account for and surrender private information to that has a false sense on security (Remember that not even the banking industry or big tech can keep your information or money safe.) If I request a deletion of this Tilia, Will it delete my account on SL? How much is this undisclosed charge because I didn't see it when searching for "$" in the FAQ's. Do I have to create a Paypal just to skip surrendering so much private information to? Will it eventually extend to Paypal? What laws and regulations are they referring to when they make that base claim with no link to such laws and regulations? Will they delete other forms of payment in the future? What are the pros to surrendering so much private information other than "You get to use a credit card and we might delete your account for any reason we choose and we may refund your money or hold onto your information for some reason or another, We don't know lol"

Yes, but remember the story of iddy biddy teeny weeny insignificant lil David slaying the big bad arrogant bossy dictatorial less-than-honest (probably) Goliath? 

[EdmundPendragon]

After going through this thread the best I can, I am still very confused. My question (and I would very much appreciate an answer) is : "While I am a Premium member, I am not a Content Creator and as such, have never cashed out any money from Second Life. Why am I being required to have a Tilia account?".  And before someone chimes in with it is only if you want to process a credit, I refer to the line just before that which says : "Effective August 1, in order to continue using Second Life you will have to agree to Tilia’s Terms of Service and Privacy Policy.  A Tilia Account associated with your Second Life Account will automatically be created for you and you will not need a separate username or password to access your Tilia Account."  Does this mean Premium as well as non-Premium accounts? At this time, the only thing I will say for sure is that I will not provide my social security number under ANY circumstance and if that means I lose the $90+ dollars that I spent for a year of Premium so be it (since I very seriously doubt they will allow me to cancel the charge later in August).

[Vanity Fair]

12 hours ago, Chic Aeon said:

There is mention of a fee (doesn't look like the one animats was talking about with arbitration but a "user fee" for cashing out. HOWEVER I can't find any information on that fee UNLESS I sign up with Tilia. AND the TOS can change at any time and they will post on their website -- meaning we don't even KNOW what fee we are agreeing to and won't know if it goes up until it is too late in the future --- unless of course we check their webpage often.  So a lot of this isn't working for me AT ALL.

THIS is what is bugging me! There is ABSOLUTELY NO MENTION of what dollar amount the monthly inactivity fee is, in either the Tilia FAQ *or* the Tilia Terms of Service. So there's going to be a fee for inactive accounts, but they can't even tell us what that fee is going to be?!?? At least be up front about it, Linden Lab!

And the timing of this announcement, AFTER they got people to resign up for another year and AFTER all the Meet the Lindens events, is dreadful.

I agree with what someone said on this thread earlier: if you make money from Second Life, you need to talk to your lawyer. I feel sorry for any content creators in SL who now have to deal with all the headaches that these new regulations will cause. And I won't be surprised if some content creators finally decide it's no longer worth the hassle to do it anymore.

Also, will other US-based virtual worlds need to follow suit (e.g. OpenSim)? This whole thing raises more questions than it answers.

[AyelaNewLife]

40 minutes ago, QueenGalaxia said:

Thank you for your quick response. that is helpful to know. Also, I don't feel right about having them know my social security and address, to me that feels like a violation of my privacy and potential risk of unknowns to come and be. *shrugs*  T_T i dont plan on ever converting lindens into money also so. i feel like having a Tilia account would be irrelevant for me. but ah well. 

Luckily you (and me and the vast majority of the SL playerbase) won't need to hand over such personal details. It's only the 1% of the 1% that make real money off of SL that will need to do all this. Remember, if all you do is use your SL income to subsidise your SL expenses, then you're not taking $ out of the ecosystem and thus are not affected.

[evastika Aura]

Its have any information about payment methods ? Its still will be possible process credit with Scrill or send money directly to the visa/mastercard (not for USA residents)

[AyelaNewLife]

9 minutes ago, EdmundPendragon said:

After going through this thread the best I can, I am still very confused. My question (and I would very much appreciate an answer) is : "While I am a Premium member, I am not a Content Creator and as such, have never cashed out any money from Second Life. Why am I being required to have a Tilia account?".  And before someone chimes in with it is only if you want to process a credit, I refer to the line just before that which says : "Effective August 1, in order to continue using Second Life you will have to agree to Tilia’s Terms of Service and Privacy Policy.  A Tilia Account associated with your Second Life Account will automatically be created for you and you will not need a separate username or password to access your Tilia Account."  Does this mean Premium as well as non-Premium accounts? At this time, the only thing I will say for sure is that I will not provide my social security number under ANY circumstance and if that means I lose the $90+ dollars that I spent for a year of Premium so be it (since I very seriously doubt they will allow me to cancel the charge later in August).

Short answer - because Tilia will handle the backend of you buying Lindens. 

Longer answer - you won't need to hand over all of this personal identification to have a Tilia account. That's only needed if you want to cash out USD credit from Second Life. There will effectively be a two-tier system;

• 'Normal' Tilia accounts for almost all residents, that don't require any extra information or effort at all. From the user's point of view, these accounts exist on paper alone, to handle the backend of all Lindens-related transactions. You might need to tick an "I agree" box once when you log in... but that's about it.
• There will also be a 'plus' Tilia account for anyone who wishes to withdraw money from the Second Life economy, and this is what will require the ID.

(If you sell Lindens and use the resulting balance to subsidise/pay for your tier/premium accounts, then you also will not need to provide this ID.)

[EdmundPendragon]

5 minutes ago, AyelaNewLife said:

Luckily you (and me and the vast majority of the SL playerbase) won't need to hand over such personal details. It's only the 1% of the 1% that make real money off of SL that will need to do all this. Remember, if all you do is use your SL income to subsidise your SL expenses, then you're not taking $ out of the ecosystem and thus are not affected.

Are you sure? The way I read the announcement WE ALL are affected by this. And until I see a response from a Linden that tells me that you are right and I am wrong (hopefully), I have a month left in Second Life as I will not under any circumstance give up my social security number.

[EdmundPendragon]

1 minute ago, AyelaNewLife said:

Short answer - because Tilia will handle the backend of you buying Lindens. 

Longer answer - you won't need to hand over all of this personal identification to have a Tilia account. That's only needed if you want to cash out USD credit from Second Life. There will effectively be a two-tier system;

• 'Normal' Tilia accounts for almost all residents, that don't require any extra information or effort at all. From the user's point of view, these accounts exist on paper alone, to handle the backend of all Lindens-related transactions. You might need to tick an "I agree" box once when you log in... but that's about it.
• There will also be a 'plus' Tilia account for anyone who wishes to withdraw money from the Second Life economy, and this is what will require the ID.

(If you sell Lindens and use the resulting balance to subsidise/pay for your tier/premium accounts, then you also will not need to provide this ID.)

Are you sure? Has a Linden told you that? I NEVER buy Lindens just save up my stipend towards purchases. If you are right and I am wrong (which I fervently hope), you are right and there is no problem for me. I am just saying that requiring my social security number is an ABSOLUTE no-go for me under any circumstance.

[Theresa Tennyson]

1 minute ago, EdmundPendragon said:

Are you sure? Has a Linden told you that? I NEVER buy Lindens just save up my stipend towards purchases. If you are right and I am wrong (which I fervently hope), you are right and there is no problem for me. I am just saying that requiring my social security number is an ABSOLUTE no-go for me under any circumstance.

Linden Lab already answered most of your questions in this thread. Maybe you should try reading the thread you're... um... posting in.

[AyelaNewLife]

4 minutes ago, EdmundPendragon said:

Are you sure? The way I read the announcement WE ALL are affected by this. And until I see a response from a Linden that tells me that you are right and I am wrong (hopefully), I have a month left in Second Life as I will not under any circumstance give up my social security number.

 

Just now, EdmundPendragon said:

Are you sure? Has a Linden told you that? I NEVER buy Lindens just save up my stipend towards purchases. If you are right and I am wrong (which I fervently hope), you are right and there is no problem for me. I am just saying that requiring my social security number is an ABSOLUTE no-go for me under any circumstance.

 

Quote

In order to stay in compliance with regulatory requirements, if you wish to process a credit, we will need certain personal information to verify your identity, including your name, address, date of birth, and social security number (or government-issued identification if you are not a U.S. Citizen).  You may be required to provide additional information to complete the transaction. Tilia will securely store this information so that you should only need to provide it once.

Emphasis mine. 

"Processing credit" refers to withdrawing a USD balance from your Second Life account to a real bank. Only that one type of transaction. Buying Lindens with real money is a transaction that will be handled by Tilia, but buying Lindens is NOT processing credit.

(See also; the recent increases in the credit processing fee.)

[EdmundPendragon]

1 minute ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Linden Lab already answered most of your questions in this thread. Maybe you should try reading the thread you're... um... posting in.

I just love your always sarcastic comments

[GabrielleVanDerMalle]

i use my credit card, never ask for cash out from my balance. will tilla still want my Social Security number?? if so i will leave second life.

[EdmundPendragon]

5 minutes ago, AyelaNewLife said:

 

 

Emphasis mine. 

"Processing credit" refers to withdrawing a USD balance from your Second Life account to a real bank. Only that one type of transaction. Buying Lindens with real money is a transaction that will be handled by Tilia, but buying Lindens is NOT processing credit.

(See also; the recent increases in the credit processing fee.)

I hope you are right and thank you for replying to my post in a helpful and adult manner.

[Monderas Bristol]

If you only buy L$ you're not affected. If you want to CASH OUT for real world money then you are affected. LL replied at least twice in this thread I think.

Come August the 1st you'll have to agree on login to some new terms but that's the only thing that will affect the majority of people that don't cash out (process credit)

[Mollymews]

22 minutes ago, EdmundPendragon said:

Are you sure? The way I read the announcement WE ALL are affected by this

we all are yes.  We all will get a Tilia account yes. Effectively tho all it is, is an unverified ledger entry in the first instance

how does this affect us ? If we never convert L$ to USD then it doesn't affect us at all. Tilia(LL) will not require us to provide any more information to them than we have already

so if you are like me - I only pay money into SL - then our Tilia account will remain as an unverified ledger entry. Should we at a later date decide to withdraw USD from our SL(Tilia) account then we have to verify ourselves in the real world, to activate it so we can use it to withdraw money to our real world bank account/paypal/etc

 

edit: what Ayela said

Edited July 2, 2019 by Mollymews