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1 hour ago, CheriColette said:

My concern (and I have sent message to LL before concerning this) is that there is NOT a separate password to access the financial transactions in SL. I worry about the possibility of someone breaking into my account and having access to my rl bank/paypal to move money into SL and steal it.  

I wish for a second password, different from sign in, to protect money transfers. 

@Digit Gears

That's my first concern, talking of risky.

"Tilia may on occasion need to interrupt the Tilia Service with or without prior notice. You agree that Tilia will not be liable for any interruption of the Tilia Service (whether intentional or not), and you understand that except as may otherwise be specifically provided in these Terms, you will not be entitled to any refunds of fees or other compensation for interruption of the Tilia Service. Likewise, you agree that in the event of data loss, we will not be liable for any purported damage or harm arising therefrom. "

This my second ... if something happened, like my SL account gets hacked and i store US$ on my account, i could lose them, same if the servers of Tilia gets hacked, and then even my personal info could be affected too.

That's why i talk about risky!

Just saw LL' second answer, thanks for communicating! Would be good to have some answers to security questions also  :)

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@Linden Lab Need clarification please. 

"Your information is encrypted and locked down to only be accessible by specific people who have a business need to access your information."

Who would have "a business need" to access personal information that LL doesn't already have, if Tilia is LL owned by or a subsidiary of LL already?

May we have an assurance that this isn't for data mining purposes?

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3 minutes ago, summernightsdream said:

@Digit GearsThis my second ... if something happened, like my SL account gets hacked and i store US$ on my account, i could lose them, same if the servers of Tilia gets hacked, and then even my personal info could be affected too.

Ah, ya I can see that, at the very least, hopefully they'll let you change the password for it separately afterwards.

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9 minutes ago, Goggles5150 said:

If they require a social security number for US citizens is that even legal, and how do we know that they won't be used, I don't trust this company to have my social they dont need it. 

The social security number is for tax purposes and is perfectly legal.  They have to report some/all of the cash outs to the IRS if you are in the US.

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2 hours ago, Linden Lab said:

This fee would only apply to those accounts with USD balances which have not accessed their Tilia account in any way (for example, to check balance) 

 

2 hours ago, drusilladarkwillow said:

You shouldn't be charge a fee as you aren't holding a balance on the Tilia.

Drusilla-   I think USD is USD -- no separate pot of cash so an inactivity fee applies.

BUT I never cash out so won't open Tilia to look at balance      OR   does opening my account on the dashboard where the balance shows enough? 

3 hours ago, Linden Lab said:

or had any credit processing transactions over a period of 12 months or more.

Does this mean no activity= a fee BUT at some point will the USD balance escheat to the state? Which state --California?

 

Linden- I get the money rules you MUST  follow but we need a  board game workflow chart to figure out how check balance - my deposited from outside USD  appears in 2 places right- dashboard and the Tilia -- or is Tilia nested inside the dashboard?

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Posted (edited)

*shrugs*

Does anyone remember the time when you had to verify your age? When the Teen Grid still existed, and the Main Grid was supposed to be age 18+ only? I do. And my former account indeed was "officially age-verified".

Given that Tilia is a 100% subsidiary of Linden Research, I have no qualms giving them the info required. Just like I had no qualms giving @Linden Lab the info required back then.

Edited by ThorinII
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@Linden Lab Regarding process credit fees, what is happening with the 5% fee LL takes now. Will those fees be added to Tilia's fees so making them higher even? what is going to happen with that?

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2 minutes ago, Aime Takaaki said:

@Linden Lab Regarding process credit fees, what is happening with the 5% fee LL takes now. Will those fees be added to Tilia's fees so making them higher even? what is going to happen with that?

I've seen no reference to Tilia charging a "fee," other than the inactivity one. To what are you referring?

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26 minutes ago, Dima Plessis said:

Yes, but this was all done with no change to the user experience. NOW we will have to verify our identity through another company, with more documents than before, and we cannot apply until after the switch happens which means all of us will be sitting in a long line together come August 2nd, unable to cash out until we're approved which could take a month IF the process goes smoothly.

Additionally, if we're now going to be going through another company owned by LL. How do we know things will not change to include more fees, more restrictions on cashing out, etc. They can change the terms of service at any time, and once we're all going through a separate company whose entire business is making money off of exchanges of virtual money I am willing to bet the TOS and fees will be revised at some point in the near future, after we're all chained to Tilia.

Will these changes include any improvement to the user experience. I doubt it, because I would think if there was anything good to say about this switch they would be telling us now to keep us happy.

No, in most cases you won't have to do ANYTHING except accept the new Tilia ToS.  You've already been going through Tilia for years now, and you've never noticed a thing, now have you?

LL could also change the SL Terms of Service at any time, it says so right there in the ToS you agreed to.  They could also (and have!) changed the fee structure at any time.  So, nothing new there, either. 

I think this is all going to be mostly a non-issue, for most people, as Qie noted early on in the thread.  However, my inner humorist forces me to add...

32 minutes ago, Evangeline Ling said:

Tilia.jpg

...I knew there was something fishy going on here!  (Joke only!  Joke!)

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4 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I've seen no reference to Tilia charging a "fee," other than the inactivity one. To what are you referring?

From the Tilia TOS:

image.png.dbad8b814be7e7baca40ce45eb363f3c.png

 

However, LL has already said in one of their replies that the fee will not change -- so it will simply be a Tilia fee in the future rather than an LL fee - since Tilia is actually doing the Process Credit.

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I dont trust them since form what I understand is if there is a data breach they are not responsible at all for any info lost or stolen. Data breaches happen allot and if they won't be responsible for any money you loose then why should we even bother agreeing to thier tos. 

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1 hour ago, CheriColette said:

'What’s changing? 

Effective August 1, in order to continue using Second Life you will have to agree to Tilia’s Terms of Service and Privacy Policy.  A Tilia Account associated with your Second Life Account will automatically be created for you and you will not need a separate username or password to access your Tilia Account.'

@Linden Lab

My concern (and I have sent message to LL before concerning this) is that there is NOT a separate password to access the financial transactions in SL. I worry about the possibility of someone breaking into my account and having access to my rl bank/paypal to move money into SL and steal it. 

I wish for a second password, different from sign in, to protect money transfers. 

 Do you require one now? Someone who gets your SL password today would have the same ability.

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4 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I've seen no reference to Tilia charging a "fee," other than the inactivity one. To what are you referring?

Subject to your compliance with Tilia’s Terms, you may be permitted to request that Tilia process a credit from your Stored Value Balance, in an amount equal to all or a portion of the available funds associated with your Stored Value Balance, to your PayPal account or other account permitted by Tilia. Tilia, in its sole discretion, will approve or deny your request. If approved, the request will be subject to a fee (the “Process Credit Fee”) payable to Tilia

 

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Just now, Lindal Kidd said:

No, in most cases you won't have to do ANYTHING except accept the new Tilia ToS.  You've already been going through Tilia for years now, and you've never noticed a thing, now have you?

Actually, because I have been around for almost 13 years, nor have I cashed out enough to catch the eye of the cash out police, I never had to give LL the documents Tilia is saying they will need for me to prove my identity. So unless they will allow me to continue cashing out without providing an ID or proof of address and such... I will need to provide more documents and wait to be processed. And since we don't know if any of us will have the information they will require (for example do they need more recent documents if people provided theirs say... 3 years ago?) we really don't know how many of us will be asked to provide documents.

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I hope7seas makes a 'Tilia the Tilapia'  -then they can try to cash out the new income and tell us how it went......

They'd better make some trailers no owner , no security for squatters ---TiliaTown

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4 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

However, LL has already said in one of their replies that the fee will not change -- so it will simply be a Tilia fee in the future rather than an LL fee - since Tilia is actually doing the Process Credit.

I missed that question somehow

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I would rather them block my ability to extract real $ than store personal data. I don't trust the SL IT security system for anti-hacking.

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Aime Takaaki said:

Subject to your compliance with Tilia’s Terms, you may be permitted to request that Tilia process a credit from your Stored Value Balance, in an amount equal to all or a portion of the available funds associated with your Stored Value Balance, to your PayPal account or other account permitted by Tilia. Tilia, in its sole discretion, will approve or deny your request. If approved, the request will be subject to a fee (the “Process Credit Fee”) payable to Tilia

 

But LL has surely answered this already on page 5 of this thread?

Is this an extra fee on top of the recently changed credit processing fee?

No. The credit processing fees remain unchanged for you as a Resident. You will not be charged anything extra for a credit processing fee by Tilia. The only other fee which may apply is an inactivity fee. This fee would only apply to those accounts with USD balances which have not accessed their Tilia account in any way (for example, to check balance) or had any credit processing transactions over a period of 12 months or more.

 

ETA: Oops, sorry. You've already seen Lil's reference to this.

Edited by Scylla Rhiadra
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J0nny, you have a point.  But you already had to provide LL with personal data, just to sign up.  If you registered a payment method, you had to provide more personal data, the account information.  From what I'm reading, you won't have to provide any additional data UNLESS you want to do a Process Credit transaction.

Giving personal data to ANYONE on line is a risk...all of the data breaches over the last five years or so should tell you that.  Heck, even the government (maybe especially the government) can't be trusted to keep your information safe.

As much as I've spoken out against LL's poor security practices, I have to admit they have a better record of keeping our info secure than a lot of much larger and supposedly more secure organizations.

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https://www.theinfatuation.com/minneapolis/reviews/tilia

sing to the Beatles song Rocky Racoon:

Now somewhere in the Linden Hills of Lake Calhoun
There lived a young boy named Rocky Raccoon
And one day his cash balance  ran off with another guy
Hit young Rocky in the eye
Rocky didn't like that
He said, "I'm gonna get that boy"
So one day he walked into town
Booked himself a room in the local saloon

Rocky Raccoon checked into his room
Only to find Money transmitters’s bible
Rocky had come, equipped with a gun
To shoot off the legs of his rival
His rival it seems, had broken his dreams
By stealing the cash  of his fancy
Her name was Magill, and she called herself Lil
But everyone knew her as Nancy  (because she never verified her identity!)

 

 

 

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46 minutes ago, Dima Plessis said:

Will these changes include any improvement to the user experience. I doubt it, because I would think if there was anything good to say about this switch they would be telling us now to keep us happy.

It will keep LL and SL in financial regulatory compliance.  That is about keeping the ability to cash out Linden dollars at all, and that is something that benefits all of us.  If they did not do this, there would be no SL economy and that would pretty much put an end to the user experience.

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5 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

J0nny, you have a point.  But you already had to provide LL with personal data, just to sign up.  If you registered a payment method, you had to provide more personal data, the account information.  From what I'm reading, you won't have to provide any additional data UNLESS you want to do a Process Credit transaction.

Agreed, but with the further information provided not only can your Lindon Account be taken over, but now RL Identity theft is in the realms of possibility.

All I am suggesting is that instead of forcing all people to provide this level of detailed personal information only those wanting to convert LL to RL need to provide it. Otherwise it's just another "game".

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Well you're also supposed to declare anything you pull out of SL. this is just fraud prevention as per usual.

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I dont know, this all seems very unethical to me.

The fact that there is no obligation to ever pay or refund any money that I as a user and creator have paid into the service or have earned through the sale of my creations, the fact that there is apparently no financial responsibility to pay or refund any of that money in the event of data loss/breach on their end, or that someone could just be having a bad hair day and decide to delete my acct and keep whatever money I had there does not sit real well with me.

I know its probably always been this way, but if I put money in a bank, and the bank gets robbed, my money is still there (in theory) because it was insured.  If someone is going to hold onto the money I earn from the things that I make, I feel like they should have some responsibility to ensure that A) every penny of that money is safe and not prone to loss due to 'down time' or breach and B) that I am entitled to and have access to any and all money's which I have earned and they may be holding for me.

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