Tilia takes over

[Beth Macbain]

1 minute ago, Blush Bravin said:

I read the knowledge base ... and this quote from it is the reason I posted.

I have already submitted my photo ID. Why do I have to do it again?

The financial-related services that are offered by Linden Lab are now managed by Linden Lab's wholly-owned subsidiary, Tilia Inc. Tilia is required to comply with applicable U.S. laws and regulations. As part of our ongoing risk management process, we obtain, verify, and record information about our customers for whom we offer financial-related services. Your personal information will remain protected and will only be used for purposes that are outlined in our Privacy Policy, which can be accessed on our website.

 

If you look back not only have people read it but they've been quoting from it. And since Grumpity said they are reading the thread and pulling questions from the thread to answer I think it's a good thing that people are posting their concerns and questions.

I'm more referring to the people already talking about packing up and leaving, but don't let me interrupt a good freak-out fest. Carry on!

[Inara Pey]

 

2 hours ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

The LL blog post is missing some info that I think we need.

The Tilia TOS sounds like it might be set up to allow for interaction with multiple online services, not just SL. 

From Auguest 1st, 2019, Tilia Inc is intended to provide virtual economy services to 3rd party clients - of which, LL appear to be one. These include (if required) virtual tokens (which the L$ has really been for years now). 

2 hours ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

As far as SL is concerned, I can't figure out is Tilia is ONLY for process credit out, or if it also gets involved to pull money from your payment method for buying L$ or paying Premium and Tier fees.  Also, when you sell L$ and get a USD balance, is that balance now going to be sitting at Tilia?

The blog post and FAQ expressly limit themselves to credit processing and USD balances. That said, an unambiguous statement on managing L$ balances and "in game" purchases of L$ through the viewer + use of L$ balances for tier payments, etc., would not go amiss (and help allay at least some concerns / confusion), I agree.

[Cristal Kenyon]

"Your personal information will remain protected" ???? What about all of the breaches we hear about lately?

[Blush Bravin]

Just now, Beth Macbain said:

I'm more referring to the people already talking about packing up and leaving, but don't let me interrupt a good freak-out fest. Carry on!

Ahhhhhh ... I kinda don't even read their posts .. and if I make the mistake of starting one and see it's headed that way I quickly forget it.

 

[Luna Bliss]

2 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

don't let me interrupt a good freak-out fest

Adios

[Beth Macbain]

1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said:

Adios

See? That just makes me want to hang around. It's been so pleasant lately. Do you really want to start it up again?

[Linden Lab]

 

We are still reviewing and addressing some of the other questions that have been posted in this thread. However, here is some additional information on some of the questions we have seen so far. We continue to work on following up on questions that have yet to be addressed and will continue to update and monitor this forum thread over the next few days.

Is this an extra fee on top of the recently changed credit processing fee?

No. The credit processing fees remain unchanged for you as a Resident. You will not be charged anything extra for a credit processing fee by Tilia. The only other fee which may apply is an inactivity fee. This fee would only apply to those accounts with USD balances which have not accessed their Tilia account in any way (for example, to check balance) or had any credit processing transactions over a period of 12 months or more.

How long will it take to process my credit request? Is it going to take longer than usual with Tilia?

We anticipate that the usual time to process credit, currently two to three business days, will not change for most Second Life Residents once your identification documentation has been verified.

How is this change compliant with GDPR? 

Tilia is fully compliant with GDPR. For more information, please see the link to our Privacy Policy where it reads:

OTHER INFORMATION
See our online Privacy Policy to learn more about information collected through our website and how we use and disclose it. That Privacy Policy should be regarded as part of this Privacy Notice.

Can you clarify the relationship between Tilia and Linden Lab? 

Tilia Inc. is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Linden Lab. 

Can you clarify whether there are ID requirements and fees for basic Linden Dollar purchases?

These changes apply to USD credit processing and do not have any impact on the routine purchasing of Linden Dollars. Only Second Life Residents who Process Credit of their USD balance to their payment method (e.g. PayPal)  are impacted by the ID verification requirements (which are necessary for compliance with U.S. laws and regulations).  The inactivity fee applies only to those accounts with USD balances which have not accessed their Tilia account in any way or had any credit processing transactions over a period of 12 months or more.

Will Residents outside the U.S. still need to provide verification or ID for credit processing transactions? 

Yes, anyone who processes credit will need to present a government-issued ID. 

I am not a US citizen, I do not drive & have no passport! We also do not have an official photo ID in the UK so how on earth will I qualify?

For non-U.S. citizens without a driver’s license or passport, we will need an equivalent government-issued ID to verify your identity for credit processing. If this is an issue, please contact our customer support team or continue to check our FAQ for additional guidance after Aug. 1. 

Will you expect me to scan my ID? Will you expect me to send a photocopied version over via snail mail? 

Yes, you would need to scan your ID for Tilia to verify after Aug. 1. We do not expect anyone to use “snail mail” for verification.
 

[Sylvia Tamalyn]

14 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Interesting.  As of yet, I haven't seen an email - and I have 8-10 SL accounts with payment info on file, though only 4 are still Premium and thus subject to reoccurring charges.  Or did they only send the email to folks that have previously taken money out of SL?  Even though all of us will have to still agree to the Tilia TOS on Aug 1.  

Since you asked... I have never withdrawn cash from LL, and I got an email. 

[Cristal Kenyon]

If it doesn't affect my use of SL, I'm not opting in with Tilia.

[drusilladarkwillow]

2 hours ago, halebore Aeon said:

I do have a cash balance, but I am not an SL content creator. I upload money, that goes towards my premium payments. So does that mean it will affect me too?

The only thing you would have to watch out for is the inactivity but that shouldn't be an issue since your fees will come out every month for premium/land and you'll be adding to it. It's not like the balance is sitting there untouched. You'll won't need to provide anything as you aren't taking the balance from the tilia and moving it to your bank account or paypal. All you're doing with it is using it back within secondlife. Technically we are already using the tilia and they're just pushing out the last few steps. You should be fine and pretty much unaffected by the new change.

[Gayngel]

This is very concerning I think for people who hardly make use of processing credit...

What if someone who never buys lindens nor cashes out suddenly gets a gift from a friend and now wants to process it to Paypal or their bank account? A year later having made no transactions has their account made inactive and starts to accrue interest and has to pay it... This just seems unfair to be penalized for hardly ever using a service. 

I am sure others here can think of similar situations for why they hardly process credit out  but they are now going to penalized for doing it just once.

 

This is just setting off lots of alarm bells and a great big "UUUUH NO NOT HAPPENING!" from me.

[LittleMe Jewell]

4 minutes ago, Gayngel said:

This is very concerning I think for people who hardly make use of processing credit...

What if someone who never buys lindens nor cashes out suddenly gets a gift from a friend and now wants to process it to Paypal or their bank account? A year later having made no transactions has their account made inactive and starts to accrue interest and has to pay it... This just seems unfair to be penalized for hardly ever using a service. 

I am sure others here can think of similar situations for why they hardly process credit out  but they are now going to penalized for doing it just once.

 

This is just setting off lots of alarm bells and a great big "UUUUH NO NOT HAPPENING!" from me.

If they cash the money out, thereby leaving a $0 US balance, then the inactivity fee does not apply.

 

The inactivity fee only applies if you leave a USD balance in the account and never do anything with your Tilia account for a year, not even to log in and check the balance.

 

Edited July 1, 2019 by LittleMe Jewell

[NeoBokrug Elytis]

11 minutes ago, BilleBee said:

Welp.. there goes SL, tilia will kill it just like the other games it is part of, I will never EVER give my personal information to this piece of trash EVER! 😡🤬

Just like the removal in inworld casinos and banks.  Or like when LL changed region fees, once, twice, three, four times.  And like the introduction of sculpts, mesh, fitmesh, bento, and animesh.

[Luna Bliss]

17 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

I like how everyone has just ignored this.

It's much easier to just freak out than wait for answers, isn't it?

People should feel free to express their concerns/emotions....even if they are more intense than you've decided they should be. Changes are always difficult. In the past there were financial changes that affected residents in negative ways, so I understand people's worries.

LL needs to know what disturbs people...this helps them provide information to us in the best ways possible.

[LittleMe Jewell]

15 minutes ago, BilleBee said:

Welp.. there goes SL, tilia will kill it just like the other games it is part of, I will never EVER give my personal information to this piece of trash EVER! 😡🤬

You only have to give them any personal info if you want to take money out of SL -- and you had to do that before if you hit some certain threshold of money out.

 

[Sylvia Tamalyn]

1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said:

People should feel free to express their concerns/emotions....even if they are more intense than you've decided they should be. Changes are always difficult. In the past there were financial changes that affected residents in negative ways, so I understand people's worries.

LL needs to know what disturbs people...this helps them provide information to us in the best ways possible.

I think the point, which I agree with, is that it would make more sense to wait and see what the changes are before declaring one is leaving SL for good. 

[Chic Aeon]

42 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Or did they only send the email to folks that have previously taken money out of SL?  Even though all of us will have to still agree to the Tilia TOS on Aug 1.

I do not KNOW that but my limited sampling of folks on my friends list (creators) suggests it just went out to folks that had cashed out.   Edit: It has now been confirmed that at least SOME people that have never cashed out got an email.  Very likely it is a law that they have to tell "customers" a month ahead, which they just did. I didn't look that up so just a guess.  So folks that don't read the blog or the "news" in their backend home page may not know until they can't get in without OKing the Tilia TOS and privacy statement. THAT was what happened in August 2013 and some people lost a LOT of money over that. I have a whole (not linked but still there ) page on my blog with all the links to that VERY MESSY TIME.  IM me if anyone wants to step back into history. Painful but important. 

 

I know it is day one and all. A lot of folks are just very "oh well, not a big deal" which kind of filters over to the attitude of some in corporeal life.  I have been firmly in the LL camp on most things recently because of Bellisseria. I didn't even "complain" about the cashing out fee going up. 

 

BUT --- first they announced to all the citizens that there were new Linden Homes for Premium members. TONS of folks got new accounts to get there new homes (like there were probably a 100 threads started here on "how do I get my new home"). They could NOT get a home because there were none.  And still getting a new home is close to impossible and only for the REALLY inspired folks that choose to use the adventure as a game (and good for them to finding a way to make it work). 

 

THEN they raise the membership rates (OK, been a long while) and gave folks the option of paying ahead and saving money. . Many people did; one person reported paying ahead for eight accounts -- that's a lot of money.  And then one week after the cutoff date they change the rules.    Some folks will leave because of this. It is an historical certainly. They left because LL cut out gambling. They left when they "took back" the homesteads (I don't think they were called that then). They left (many arty creators in this group) left over the TOS of August. They left or went back to basic when the rates went up this month.  Heck, they abandoned their Linden homes because they couldn't use ban lines!!!!!  

 

So LL got extra "seed" money from all the new premium accounts. They got extra "seed" money" from the early payment of premium memberships. Neither of which were all that transparent in their scope.   Soooo ---

 

Right now, I plan to OK the TOS and privacy statements. I read briefly through the TOS and didn't agree with even the beginning so in my HEART I am not agreeing at all. I figure that if I never USE Tilia, it won't matter much (well the privacy thing but since there really is NO privacy in the US any more perhaps the point is moot).  Basically I don't want to lose my account.  I just won't cash out any longer.

 

My choice. 

I am heading over to Sansar now to see what is up there. Since I will NOT be OKing any new Tilia for Sansar or logging in again, anyone that wants to see my numerous builds or buy anything I have imported there better hurry on over.  This assuming that the same announcement is happening there. 

 

If nothing else, everyone here can remember they WERE here when this happened LOL.  I used to say that during very VERY bad times traveling in Mexico. "This will make a good story when it is all over!" 

 

 

Edited July 1, 2019 by Chic Aeon
adding info

[Luna Bliss]

6 minutes ago, Sylvia Tamalyn said:

I think the point, which I agree with, is that it would make more sense to wait and see what the changes are before declaring one is leaving SL for good.

I just saw concerns mainly until the end of page 4 when someone went a little over the top..

[Scylla Rhiadra]

I'm putting together an anonymous Open Letter to express the concerns of everyone here. Please DM me if you'd like to have your name added to it.

Or not: I'll probably just add your name anyway.

 

 

 

Lol.

J/K - I'm going shopping for hair. See ya all later.

[Blush Bravin]

Well, my only concern is not wanting to submit my photo id again and that's not really all that big a deal really. It's just a minor annoyance. I don't have an issue with anything I've seen otherwise. Paypal recently did something very similar and I wasn't alarmed by that either. So, I'm outa here!  

[Luna Bliss]

3 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

I do not KNOW that but my limited sampling of folks on my friends list (creators) suggests it just went out to folks that had cashed out.

I did not get an email     And I have cashed out, and sent my ID in ages ago. Not too happy about having to send it again as my printer isn't working.

[drusilladarkwillow]

1 hour ago, Chic Aeon said:

The email seems to be saying two different things.   

 Effective August 1, in order to continue using Second Life you will have to agree to Tilia’s Terms of Service and Privacy Policy.  A Tilia Account associated with your Second Life Account will automatically be created for you and you will not need a separate username or password to access your Tilia Account.

 

This sounds like EVERYONE.   However I alerted some content creator friends on my list and they had not received the email. They are no in the US (but some folks here seem to be outside the US also) but THEY DON'T CASH OUT.  

 

So perhaps that "you" in the email, really does MEAN that you only need to have an account if you turn lindens into cash.  Unfortunately IF that is the case and you have any tier payments that go to SL (happily I do not) it means that you would not be able to change lindens into US dollars to pay your tier; it would need to come from Paypal or credit card.   

 

Really not unusual that this is so convoluted. Attorneys never could agree on the legality of the August 2013 TOS changes. 

 

And do we have ANY idea what the cash out fees (for those that continue to cash out) will be? Especially since the Tilia TOS says they don't actually need to send us an email of changes? 

 

The tilia we're already are using for this. I just paid my land tier with my tilia balance, I had cashed out lindens to cover it. It'll still happen just fine but to process the fee, it sounds like we'll have to log onto our tilia accounts to move that USD balance over to whatever place we then want it to go. 

 

The cashout fees aren't changing since the last fee increase not too long ago. Another user in the second life commerce group that I am in had found where they had stated the fees. It's still 3.5% on the lindex then another 5% processing fee.

1 hour ago, Malin Sabra said:

So really nothing is changing other than if you leave a USD balance on your account you might get charges after 12 months of inactivity and you have to agree to another TOS.

Right and the inactivity charge is if the balance itself hasn't increased or decreased since it was put in there for 12 months since the deposit. I gave the tilia ToS a quick scan through but will be reading it more in detail later.

1 hour ago, Victorian Magic said:

So to keep "playing" SL I need to accept Tilia  terms and  the account they set up for me and I will be charged an inactivity fee--when I've never cashed out but usually have cash from deposits to my account from credit cards.

Of course my account will be inactive I didn't ask for it. How much will THIS feature cost me on top of higher premium?

You shouldn't be charge a fee as you aren't holding a balance on the Tilia.

[Sylvia Tamalyn]

2 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

J/K - I'm going shopping for hair. See ya all later.

Absolutely the wisest response to all of this. *grabs her wallet and heads out too*

[Blush Bravin]

1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said:

Not too happy about having to send it again as my printer isn't working.

I took a photo of my ID, front and back, with my phone and sent that to them and it worked just fine. That was maybe 6 months ago when I cashed out of Sansar.

[Fluf Fredriksson]

I'm just sad that I had to spend half an hour reading forum posts and LL's answers to the forum posts to find out what the heck it all meant.

Pointing people at a mile long TOS page full of legal jargon wasn't ever going to go smoothly was it?