Inworld Store Closure - Similar to RL Blue Laws

[Lindal Kidd]

Moral and religious arguments aside, I find this discussion, and the shop owner's solution to her problem, interesting.

The main problem is that the existing system does not easily permit the temporary "closing" and "re-opening" of a store, either in world or on the Marketplace.  While the owner can put up and take down banlines, the other solutions suggested such as disabling vendors or blocking them with prims, are enormously labor intensive and time consuming, especially if one has a large store with many items.

The request to not cam-shop, and the threat of banning if one does, also have problems.  The former inconveniences customers, at the very least.  The latter creates outright enmity.

The discussion of whether or not "passive income" is allowed on the Sabbath contains, to my mind, the germ of a solution.  SL shops are largely automated enterprises, anyway.  Let the customers shop when they like.  But the owner could then take any income from Sabbath sales and donate it to a worthy cause of her choice.  No customers would be annoyed, and the intent of the law would be observed.

[Madelaine McMasters]

7 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

The discussion of whether or not "passive income" is allowed on the Sabbath contains, to my mind, the germ of a solution.  SL shops are largely automated enterprises, anyway.  Let the customers shop when they like.  But the owner could then take any income from Sabbath sales and donate it to a worthy cause of her choice.  No customers would be annoyed, and the intent of the law would be observed.

I like this idea. It could be extended to my example of interest bearing bank accounts by donating 1/7th of one's interest income to charity.

[Callum Meriman]

2 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said:

The request to not cam-shop, and the threat of banning if one does, also have problems.  The former inconveniences customers, at the very least.  The latter creates outright enmity.

I still view this in the same way a club can ban anyone, even if the criteria is people who have red hair who try to enter on Thursdays. The club owner doesn't even need to place a notice at the entrance stating it.

It's long established practice for SL that the owner of the land (including a shop) has close to dictator rights over it.

Redheads banned from a club have the option to go to another club (or miss out), people banned from a store for shopping on Saturday can also shop elsewhere (or miss out).

As far as enmity, you should see some of the swear laden IMs I get after I ban someone from my club.

[Lindal Kidd]

36 minutes ago, Callum Meriman said:

As far as enmity, you should see some of the swear laden IMs I get after I ban someone from my club.

And you make my point.  Yes, a land owner has the power to ban anyone, at any time, for any reason.  Just because she CAN, however, does not mean that she SHOULD...especially if she wants happy customers and good word of mouth advertising.

[Maryanne Solo]

Digital religion = where normal people adopt its universal symbol of a single finger raised. Suits me just fine 

[Sandy Schnook]

I debated a long time before posting this, and still wonder about what I will say.  I found out which store the OP meant because they are on the advent listings, and once I did, I left and returned the next day.  For some reason I decided to read their profile, and have now decided to boycott the store.  NOT for their religious observances, but because in their RL part of the profile, they state vehemently how much they hate Second Life.  By extension, that tells me they also hate me and everyone else in Second Life.  I see no good reason to pay someone who doesn't even want to be in SL.  I know there are many MP stores that have owners that do not spend much if any time in world.  But to so obviously state how much they hate it is very offputting to me as a customer.  One who has bought items from that store in the past.

[LittleMe Jewell]

9 hours ago, Sandy Schnook said:

I debated a long time before posting this, and still wonder about what I will say.  I found out which store the OP meant because they are on the advent listings, and once I did, I left and returned the next day.  For some reason I decided to read their profile, and have now decided to boycott the store.  NOT for their religious observances, but because in their RL part of the profile, they state vehemently how much they hate Second Life.  By extension, that tells me they also hate me and everyone else in Second Life.  I see no good reason to pay someone who doesn't even want to be in SL.  I know there are many MP stores that have owners that do not spend much if any time in world.  But to so obviously state how much they hate it is very offputting to me as a customer.  One who has bought items from that store in the past.

Wow.  I had never read the profile - I often don't for store owners unless I'm checking on their preferred method of contact.  I'm glad you posted this.

 

[Annie Nova]

12 hours ago, Sandy Schnook said:

I debated a long time before posting this, and still wonder about what I will say.  I found out which store the OP meant because they are on the advent listings, and once I did, I left and returned the next day.  For some reason I decided to read their profile, and have now decided to boycott the store.  NOT for their religious observances, but because in their RL part of the profile, they state vehemently how much they hate Second Life.  By extension, that tells me they also hate me and everyone else in Second Life.  I see no good reason to pay someone who doesn't even want to be in SL.  I know there are many MP stores that have owners that do not spend much if any time in world.  But to so obviously state how much they hate it is very offputting to me as a customer.  One who has bought items from that store in the past.

I also read their profile for the first time and I've been buying items from this store for a very long time, and I agree I will no longer be buying anything from them. If they hate SL so much, why in the world are they here?? 

[Selene Gregoire]

I'd prefer not to purchase from someone who professes to hate SL "with a passion" as well. Would someone be so kind as to PM me the store name, please, so I can add it to my short list of "do not shop heres"?

Edited December 5, 2018 by Selene Gregoire

[Maryanne Solo]

I wont ask for the name but I WILL be checking all my  usual stores for recurring & multiple dysfunctional hatreds. I don't care if its my very fave store of the last 9 years, they're gone in the blink of an eye if I see that rubbish. 👀 👊 🚽 🔨

[Cindy Evanier]

4 hours ago, Selene Gregoire said:

I'd prefer not to purchase from someone who professes to hate SL "with a passion" as well. Would someone be so kind as to PM me the store name, please, so I can add it to my short list of "do not shop heres"?

ditto

[Ceka Cianci]

Unless they own the whole sim and there are no connecting sims..How could they stop them from camming in and buying something in the future?

Couldn't someone still cam shop there if they can cam in from another parcel?

 

A lot of times all I do is cam in a store rather than go in..

 

 

 

[LittleMe Jewell]

41 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

Unless they own the whole sim and there are no connecting sims..How could they stop them from camming in and buying something in the future?

Couldn't someone still cam shop there if they can cam in from another parcel?

 

A lot of times all I do is cam in a store rather than go in..

 

 

 

The notice requested that you not cam from the neighboring store parcel and said that if you did you would get a warning and if it happened again, then you would be banned.

 

 

That does bring up a question though -- if a store owner bans you, but you can cam in from a neighboring area, can you still buy from their vendors?  Would they need to have you actually banned from the private region itself?

 

[Ceka Cianci]

9 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

The notice requested that you not cam from the neighboring store parcel and said that if you did you would get a warning and if it happened again, then you would be banned.

 

 

That does bring up a question though -- if a store owner bans you, but you can cam in from a neighboring area, can you still buy from their vendors?  Would they need to have you actually banned from the private region itself?

 

Yea,that's kind of what I was getting at is if they did get banned..

Myself,I don't even know the store owner.. If a store say's it's closed I probably would go else where anyways and not think twice about  the why's of it..There is plenty of other stores out there on my list to hit for other things anyways.. hehehehe

I might get back around to them some day if whatever they have comes back to mind..

When I get in shopping mode it's more about time than anything so I will bounce somewhere else pretty quick hehehehe

[Selene Gregoire]

12 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

if a store owner bans you, but you can cam in from a neighboring area, can you still buy from their vendors?

That used to work. Don't know if LL plugged that hole or not by now.

13 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Would they need to have you actually banned from the private region itself?

See above. To the best of my knowledge the only way to prevent someone from camming in from another region is for the target region not be connected to another region. 

[Ethan Paslong]

14 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

 if a store owner bans you, but you can cam in from a neighboring area, can you still buy from their vendors?

a ban itself doesn't prevent you to buy from other parcels as far i understand it's a land only setting, it doesn't block/mute the banned person for the banner, only profile blocking would prevent some actions, but i doubt if it would prevent to buy when it's one sided....who's gonna try?...

[Alyona Su]

1 hour ago, Ceka Cianci said:

Unless they own the whole sim and there are no connecting sims..How could they stop them from camming in and buying something in the future?

The answer is really simple: Pick up all vendors and sales boxes. Rerez them when opened for business again.

If it's in-world and I want to buy it I will if I can, no matter what time of which day or any silly "self-denial" rules the creator may have in-place. It doesn't matter if they ban me, I can still always shop from them because banning me will not prevent me from sending them money and then receiving me my product.

[Alyona Su]

28 minutes ago, Ethan Paslong said:

...who's gonna try?...

I'm game. Really.

[Sammy Huntsman]

1 minute ago, Alyona Su said:

The answer is really simple: Pick up all vendors and sales boxes. Rerez them when opened for business again.

If it's in-world and I want to buy it I will if I can, no matter what time of which day or any silly "self-denial" rules the creator may have in-place. It doesn't matter if they ban me, I can still always shop from them because banning me will not prevent me from sending them money and then receiving me my product.

They can ban you from buying the product, through the vendor

[Alyona Su]

1 minute ago, halebore Aeon said:

3 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

 

They can ban you from buying the product, through the vendor

Yes, but only after I have already purchased and received my stuff ~toothy grin~

[Sammy Huntsman]

I just respect the creator's wishes, if he doesn't want me to go there and shop. I am certainly not camming in, I can be patient and wait for him to get back.

[Fionalein]

Just now, halebore Aeon said:

I just respect the creator's wishes, if he doesn't want me to go there and shop. I am certainly not camming in, I can be patient and wait for him to get back.

That! They are not away for weeks or so...

[Drake1 Nightfire]

1 hour ago, halebore Aeon said:

I just respect the creator's wishes, if he doesn't want me to go there and shop. I am certainly not camming in, I can be patient and wait for him to get back.

its a she, just so we all know.. 

Dont want to assume anyones gender and start a new war..  

Personally, and i did speak with a very orthodox Jewish neighbor of mine, they feel that an online store is not breaking Sabbath as they technically dont earn or spend any money until they cash out from LL. L$ are not currency. They have no cash value until LL allows you to sell them for USD. Remember, LL can stop people from cashing out. It is a privilege not a right. 

[Bitsy Buccaneer]

On 12/1/2018 at 6:54 PM, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I don't see anyone in this thread to whom this particular mindset applies, but I do think that this quasi-Solutionist attitude towards the subordination (or maybe merging) of ethical norms and technological capabilities is often at work in our culture, although most often at a subconscious level. It's why people who would never consider shoplifting give almost no thought to downloading pirated content onto their computer.

And it's why this particular merchant's approach is going to fail: because the mere ability to do something with technology so often trumps considerations of whether one should do it.

I think that the merchant, whatever the nature of their beliefs or motivations for being closed this one day, has every right to do so, and every right to expect that others will honour those wishes. But it just soooooo isn't going to happen. While Bitsy is entirely right, and generosity, courtesy, and ethical behaviour (Prok's unnecessarily jargonish "soft norms") should prevail, the technology is increasingly displacing our ability to reason ethically.

Handing over our ability to reason ethically to technology means handing it over to the people who run the tech. Doing so has serious real life consequences, like the UK's decision to tank our economy because disaster capitalists figured out how to exploit data mining on the internet.

Why should we go along with that sort of thinking and let them win?

There are ALL sorts of things most of us don't do in real life because of social norms and respect. How hard is it to just come back to the shop on another day or go somewhere else for your new pixel fix? What's gained from disrespecting a shop owner's wishes is miniscule and fleeting, at most it's a sense of having got one over on someone you look down on. What's lost is part of a bigger picture where we are unwittingly handing over capabilities our societies depend upon.

So here's an invitation to think about this ethically. Is getting one over on someone you disagree with worth dancing to the tune of someone who doesn't care about you or your needs? They're two sides of the same coin. What about relying on technological fixes? What happens when the fixes we're relying on are dependent on those whose ethical reasoning is detrimental to society? Real life examples make it clear we need to do better.

[Fionalein]

26 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Personally, and i did speak with a very orthodox Jewish neighbor of mine, they feel that an online store is not breaking Sabbath as they technically dont earn or spend any money until they cash out from LL. L$ are not currency.

Do you have any idea how many orthodox interpretation of the Toyreh exist? Just because it is OK for one of them does not mean it is for all.