Inworld Store Closure - Similar to RL Blue Laws

[Madelaine McMasters]

1 hour ago, Nacy Nightfire said:

Growing up I, my friends and diverse neighbors, were taught never to discuss religion or politics with anyone except close friends and family.  And even then to do so very carefully and respectfully.

I was also raised to be careful and respectful and curious. Though I haven't spoken to my Amish lumber man in several years, we do keep track of each other through my friends. If he was offended by my curiosity, he's not showing it. He sometimes sends me burls or crotches that nobody wants (I'll make something with them someday, I promise!) and I send him maple syrup I've collected with friends, complete with photographs of the mule team pulling the sap tank.

You made the presumption that I asked him to be an advocate for his ideology. I did not. Our conversation took off in that direction once he learned that I was home schooled. It's not uncommon to get odd looks when I tell people I was homeschooled (okay, it's not uncommon for me to get odd looks, period). I think they presume that was for religious reasons and have a hard time reconciling that with my irreverent behavior.

My curiosity extends to my neighbors across the street, who are black and voted for Trump. I've had countless enjoyable discussions with the husband, generally standing in the middle of the road. That physical position started out as happenstance and is now something we both enjoy for its ideological meaning, or because we like thumbing our noses at automobile traffic (it's hard to tell, we're both pains in the neck). Last autumn, I extended a dinner invitation to them when my remodeling is complete, and suggested that one topic of conversation would be "You're black and you voted for Trump, how the hell did that happen?!"

We're all looking forward to that dinner.

Edited February 5, 2019 by Madelaine McMasters

[Madelaine McMasters]

23 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

The only team/side I am on is my own.

I am, at best, halfway there.

[Theresa Tennyson]

2 hours ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

The thing is she observes her holy day by not logging in to Second life and doing business, which is wonderful, I give nothing but respect for that, but the problem is that she expects everyone else to observe her holy day too.

On her property.

Or are you saying that there is a "right to shop" that extends to others' property?

[Selene Gregoire]

13 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

I am, at best, halfway there.

That wasn't to say I am never a "team player". Just to be clear.

I will look out for/take care of myself first and foremost because if I don't, I can't look out for/take care of anyone else. That would be neglect.

[Dillon Levenque]

1 hour ago, Nacy Nightfire said:

Growing up I, my friends and diverse neighbors, were taught never to discuss religion or politics with anyone except close friends and family.  And even then to do so very carefully and respectfully.  In an example similar to your own, my husband and I have been involved in a lengthy construction project and have employed a man who is Jehovah's Witness. This is a well known religion that I know nothing about.  Although were are on extremely friendly terms, and he has worked for us on and off for the last 4 or 5 years,  it would strike me as extraordinarily impolite to ask him to be an advocate for his personal ideology.  I'm not incurious.  On the contrary I am very fascinated (and respectful) of  his and other people's religious beliefs. Therefore rely on my own research. It's so easy with the internet.  

As an adult I extend this rule to discussions about sexual orientation, race and personal monetary issues especially with people who I've entered into a business relationship.  To do otherwise put's people at an unfair and uncomfortable disadvantage when you pepper them with questions about things that are very personal.  The Amish gentleman may not have indicated his discomfort, or you may not have picked up on it, but clearly he shouldn't have been put in that position. Often when unthinking folks do venture to ask highly personal questions, and are challenged, they get huffy an declare they are just "interested" it the other person.  They feel they are extending some sort of compliment in their notice, attention and interest.  This however is disingenuous and impertinent.  Your farmer was, after all, a neighbor of a dear friend, not your dear friend.  I'm sure in that "Big Book of Henry Ford" quotes will can find something similar.   😉

I'm not sure why you seem to be singling out Maddy in this thread, but that's your business. What I don't understand is where you're getting this idea that you have now tripled down on: your thinly veiled suggestion that she is anti-Semitic. You took issue with her quoting Henry Ford (who I learned, after googling, was in fact a raving anti-Semite), although the quote appears to have nothing whatever to do with religion. You put a little whipped cream on that by suggesting a "dog whistle". And now here you are again bringing up Henry Ford.

Why would an atheist dislike the followers of one particular religion? That just doesn't make sense. I have spent a fair amount of time talking to Maddy and even more time listening and I  have never heard her even hint at a religion or ethnic dislike. Ever. Believe me, I'd notice.  As for your assertion* that she made the Amish lumberman uncomfortable, perhaps he enjoyed the chance to explain his beliefs directly as opposed to seeing them mis-stated by Hollywood (for example). Your point is  based on an assumption you are not qualified to make.

* You wrote, "The Amish gentleman may not have indicated his discomfort, or you may not have picked up on it...". By doing so you asserted the man felt discomfort. And by the way one of the other things I've learned about Maddy is that she's pretty good at picking up on people's feelings, and that's only with written communication. I'd guess she's even better at it with in-person situations, particularly with someone she's gotten to know a little bit.

Edited February 5, 2019 by Dillon Levenque

[Madelaine McMasters]

10 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

That wasn't to say I am never a "team player". Just to be clear.

I will look out for/take care of myself first and foremost because if I don't, I can't look out for/take care of anyone else. That would be neglect.

And my statement was a tip of the hat to Snugs, who has ample evidence that my presence on Team McMasters is a mixed bag.

[Selene Gregoire]

1 minute ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

And my statement was a tip of the hat to Snugs, who has ample evidence that my presence on Team McMasters is a mixed bag.

Even though I quoted you, it wasn't exactly aimed at you. 

...tips my hat at you then sets you on fire

[Madelaine McMasters]

22 minutes ago, Dillon Levenque said:

Why would an atheist dislike the followers of one particular religion?

I briefly enjoyed the satire of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster until they staged a parade in which people carried banners trashing quite a few religions. I'm prepared to dislike the followers who were carrying the banners.

There is a little irreverence in my ordination by the Universal Life Church. I look forward to performing my first official act as a minister, but Mom refuses to die and Mac doesn't even have a girlfriend yet.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

2 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

On her property.

Or are you saying that there is a "right to shop" that extends to others' property?

The whole point is  are her prohibitions of doing work violated if someone shops at her store on her sabbath.

Property rights are irrelevant here.

If I walk by her store and a sign says sorry we are closed, but I can cam in and buy stuff anyway, I've not violated her property rights, or her prohibition of doing work on her Sabbath.

 

[BilliJo Aldrin]

3 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

Sometimes stepping back from spending our time grasping for something to fill our own needs, and instead meditating on a larger picture where our needs are not so paramount (a Sabbath) for a day can help us develop a more loving reality during all the days of the week, to become 'like Jesus'.
Understanding the meaning of 'Sabbath' and desiring to know this state of mind means we are doing more than simply following a set of rules in a religion.

I'd say the world in general needs a Sabbath. We live in an overly-commodified world, a world addicted to progress and extracting every last resource possible from mother Earth, raping her of everything we can in the name of 'progress -- it's leading us to extinction.

I'll bring the sack cloth, you bring the ashes

[Luna Bliss]

19 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

3 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

I'd say the world in general needs a Sabbath. We live in an overly-commodified world, a world addicted to progress and extracting every last resource possible from mother Earth, raping her of everything we can in the name of 'progress -- it's leading us to extinction.

I'll bring the sack cloth, you bring the ashes

Yes, global warming is not true because it's cold right now in Minnesota.
And all the Scientists reporting the 6th major extinction presently underway are reporting "fake news". Besides, us humans can live on a planet without vegetation or other animals because we're special.
Got it.

[Innula Zenovka]

Forgive me if the topic has already been raised (I've not read the whole thread) but whose sunset are we talking about here?    Sunset for me in London next Friday (Feb 8th) will be 17:02, and sunset on Saturday 9th will be 17:04.   That's 09:02 and 09:04 SLT.    

In San Francisco, meanwhile, sunset on next Friday will be 17:41 in San Francisco (where LL is based) and 17:42 on Saturday..   In Tokyo, the sun will set at 17:15 on Friday and 17:16 on Saturday, which is 00:15 and 00:16 SLT.

(times take from https://www.timeanddate.com).

In the event I come across this store, I'll do my best to comply with the owner's wishes, but it would help if the owner could specify if I'm supposed  to observe my sunset,  sunset in San Francisco or take a guess about where the owner is based.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

13 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Yes, global warming is not true because it's cold right now in Minnesota.
And all the Scientists reporting the 6th major extinction presently underway are reporting "fake news". Besides, us humans can live on a planet without vegetation or other animals because we're special.
Got it.

Sweetie, global warming has been happening for 10,000 years since we came out of the last ice age. In fact parts of the globe are STILL in the ice age. It's not inconceivable that when the glacial period is finally ended ALL of the ice wil have melted, just like in other interglacial periods.

Fun fact: for 90% of the earths history, it was WARMER than it is right now.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

Since global warming has nothing to do with the topic of the thread, I will refrain from answering any more attempts to bait me.

Edited February 5, 2019 by BilliJo Aldrin

[BilliJo Aldrin]

31 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

Forgive me if the topic has already been raised (I've not read the whole thread) but whose sunset are we talking about here?    Sunset for me in London next Friday (Feb 8th) will be 17:02, and sunset on Saturday 9th will be 17:04.   That's 09:02 and 09:04 SLT.    

In San Francisco, meanwhile, sunset on next Friday will be 17:41 in San Francisco (where LL is based) and 17:42 on Saturday..   In Tokyo, the sun will set at 17:15 on Friday and 17:16 on Saturday, which is 00:15 and 00:16 SLT.

(times take from https://www.timeanddate.com).

In the event I come across this store, I'll do my best to comply with the owner's wishes, but it would help if the owner could specify if I'm supposed  to observe my sunset,  sunset in San Francisco or take a guess about where the owner is based.

Maybe it's sim sunset

[So Whimsy]

At least the earth isn't flat after all. I have two cats. Thank god its not freaking flat.

[CheriColette]

Her shop: Her rules. As with any property in SL. 

[BilliJo Aldrin]

11 minutes ago, CheriColette said:

Her shop: Her rules. As with any property in SL. 

Of course it is, and her rule is "If you shop at my store when its closed, I will ban you" 

That's fine with me.

However even banned I could still cam in from the next property.

Now if there's a script you can put into a vendor to decline a purchase from a person on a blacklist, her ban would have some meaning. 

[Nacy Nightfire]

3 hours ago, Dillon Levenque said:

I'm not sure why you seem to be singling out Maddy in this thread, but that's your business. What I don't understand is where you're getting this idea that you have now tripled down on: your thinly veiled suggestion that she is anti-Semitic. You took issue with her quoting Henry Ford (who I learned, after googling, was in fact a raving anti-Semite), although the quote appears to have nothing whatever to do with religion. You put a little whipped cream on that by suggesting a "dog whistle". And now here you are again bringing up Henry Ford.

Why would an atheist dislike the followers of one particular religion? That just doesn't make sense. I have spent a fair amount of time talking to Maddy and even more time listening and I  have never heard her even hint at a religion or ethnic dislike. Ever. Believe me, I'd notice.  As for your assertion* that she made the Amish lumberman uncomfortable, perhaps he enjoyed the chance to explain his beliefs directly as opposed to seeing them mis-stated by Hollywood (for example). Your point is  based on an assumption you are not qualified to make.

* You wrote, "The Amish gentleman may not have indicated his discomfort, or you may not have picked up on it...". By doing so you asserted the man felt discomfort. And by the way one of the other things I've learned about Maddy is that she's pretty good at picking up on people's feelings, and that's only with written communication. I'd guess she's even better at it with in-person situations, particularly with someone she's gotten to know a little bit.

I did not 'single out" Madeline.  I responded to her post.  And, to correct the misguided notion you have, I didn't obliquely or directly accuse Madeleine of being an anti-semite.  That's your own leap and your own attempt at spin.  It's not an accusation I made in my post, veiled or otherwise.  I did, however,  point out the insensitivity of Madeleine's post, aware how her post might appear to others.   It certainly raised my eyebrows.  Henry Ford's disgusting past has been front and center in the news this week, and clearly it's a sensitive issue for many people and not just those of the Jewish faith.  I direct you to the New York Times just this week:  "A Mayor’s Effort to Play Down Henry Ford’s Anti-Semitism Backfires."  Similar recent articles have been written in the Washington Post.

And as we've established here that no one has been accused of being an anti-semite here, except Henry Ford, I will mention that I've known a number of atheists over the years who dislike and are dismissive of all followers of religion or even just some religions and not others. Being an atheist in no way absolves a person of the potential to be a prejudiced individual.  I'm not sure where you adopted the idea that being an atheist would equate being a person incapable of prejudice.  That makes no sense.  

Madeleine, undoubtedly, can defend her own position here.  She's smart enough to know that quoting (twice!) Henry Ford within this topic was provocative.  Especially at a point where this post had  evolved into a discussion of Jewish religious practices, and where she paired the quote along with a comment that related her anecdote of earning interest in a bank while observing Sabbath.   I don't know Madeleine, but I've read of her few posts over the years. She appears to pride herself as being a "thinker".   On that basis I'm entitled to make whatever assumption I want, as may you, and everyone else that posts here.  Indeed, you have the advantage that you personally are acquainted with Madeleine, but this is not a requirement to gain an impression from, and respond to, her post.  We are all here in conversation with complete strangers, hopefully commenting with thoughtfulness.  I certainly give a great deal of thought to my posts.

I understand you want to go to bat for your friend here, but I stand by my comments. Madeleine responded to my post and yet she chose a pass on her Henry Ford comment.   

Please note there's been no attempt to add  "whipped cream" via using term "Dog Whistle".    It's a term that stands on it's own. It's subtle, I know.  In any event I had not definitively stated that her Henry Ford comment was a dog whistle,  I said I hoped it was not.  Madeline has not addressed this either way in her follow up posts.    

And, lastly, I'm perfectly qualified to make an assumption about how the Amish gentleman may have reacted internally to having a customer place him in the position of being forced to be representative of "All things Amish" and his religious practices.  I know how I'd feel in his shoes.  I'd be polite, I might respond, the customer might never know how I truly felt about the matter, but I'd view it as an impertinence.

 

[BilliJo Aldrin]

In real life, I love Chick Fil E, and of course they are closed on Sunday. If I forgot and drove there, I'd see the lights out and a closed sign, and think, oh right they close Sundays. Luckily Arby's is right next door, so I'd get a beef n cheddar instead.

There's no mistaking when an establishment is closed in RL, but what exactly showed the SL store in question is closed on the owners Sabbath?

She seems to assume someone will walk in the front door, receive a notecard or read a sign, and turn around and walk out.

However, if I never enter the property, I will never get a notice. If the store owner wants her store to be closed on the sabbath, then she needs to really close the store, and not expect everyone to bow to her wishes "just because"

[Luna Bliss]

2 hours ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

Sweetie, global warming has been happening for 10,000 years since we came out of the last ice age. In fact parts of the globe are STILL in the ice age. It's not inconceivable that when the glacial period is finally ended ALL of the ice wil have melted, just like in other interglacial periods.

Fun fact: for 90% of the earths history, it was WARMER than it is right now.

Pumpkin, do you mean the 90% time period when this little tardigrade roamed the earth? I think us humans might have different requirements for survival.

 

[Luna Bliss]

2 hours ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

global warming has been happening for 10,000 years since we came out of the last ice age. In fact parts of the globe are STILL in the ice age. It's not inconceivable that when the glacial period is finally ended ALL of the ice wil have melted, just like in other interglacial periods.

But...there's something more important than just the higher temps themselves.

 What we know about ecosystems, and what geologic history demonstrates, is that dramatic climate changes are a tremendous shock to the biosphere and cause mass extinction events. It doesn't matter whether the change is to a hotter or colder climate -- it's the rapidity of change that doesn't allow biological organisms to adapt fast enough for survival.
Our actions (pumping too much CO2 into the atmosphere due to our obsession with material objects or 'growth'), is causing this rapid change.

 

[Drake1 Nightfire]

15 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

But...there's something more important than just the higher temps themselves.

 What we know about ecosystems, and what geologic history demonstrates, is that dramatic climate changes are a tremendous shock to the biosphere and cause mass extinction events. It doesn't matter whether the change is to a hotter or colder climate -- it's the rapidity of change that doesn't allow biological organisms to adapt fast enough for survival.
Our actions (pumping too much CO2 into the atmosphere due to our obsession with material objects or 'growth'), is causing this rapid change.

 

Yes, and the earth has done this every 10-15 thousand years. The planet gives less than a monkeys butt about our survival. We are well overdue for an ice age. Our actions are NOT causing this change, it MAY be speeding t slightly, but we are not the cause. Talk about arrogance. Thinking we have the ability to change the planets climate. 

[Luna Bliss]

[LittleMe Jewell]

3 hours ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

The whole point is  are her prohibitions of doing work violated if someone shops at her store on her sabbath.

Property rights are irrelevant here.

If I walk by her store and a sign says sorry we are closed, but I can cam in and buy stuff anyway, I've not violated her property rights, or her prohibition of doing work on her Sabbath.

 

After a bit of research, I discovered that there are some who believe that even passively earning money on the Sabbath is wrong.  

 

1 hour ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

There's no mistaking when an establishment is closed in RL, but what exactly showed the SL store in question is closed on the owners Sabbath?

She seems to assume someone will walk in the front door, receive a notecard or read a sign, and turn around and walk out.

However, if I never enter the property, I will never get a notice. If the store owner wants her store to be closed on the sabbath, then she needs to really close the store, and not expect everyone to bow to her wishes "just because"

Most people do not typically cam shop from a neighboring store.  In this case, when she closes, she puts a huge sign up blocking the front door that says the store is closed.  If you touch the sign you will get a notecard explaining everything. If you TP to the store, the TP is rerouted during close time to a location near the property edge and there you will see a sign stating that the store is closed.  That sign also gives a notecard explaining the closure.

In reality, the only people that will be cam purchasing are the ones that saw the 'Closed' sign and decided to buy things anyway because they know how to cam shop. They may or may not have actually received the explanation notecard or read it.  

 

 

While this was the first time in SL that I had encountered something like this, I am definitely not a super worldly person in SL and thus truly figured this was not the first time something like this was done in SL - hence why I started the thread asking.   Based on the postings, nobody else has run into this either, which given the diversity of SL, actually surprises me.

IMO, she is totally entitled to handle her store as she pleases and I think that people should honor her decision.  I can also understand why she'd be disappointed in someone that chose to cam shop anyway.  It's not like the same stuff won't be there the next day with the same prices.  Nobody is going to miss out on any special deal, unless that 24 hour period just happens to be the only time you can be inworld between the time the weekly deals get put out on Thursday until the following Thursday when the new set of deals is put out.