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LittleMe Jewell

Inworld Store Closure - Similar to RL Blue Laws

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I happened to see a notice in a store that I frequent quite a bit that states the store will now be closing on Fridays at sunset until Saturday at sunset - title "Closed on Sabbath".  And the notice specifically states that if you cam shop from a neighboring store during that time, you may be banned from the store. 

When I was a child, we had Blue Laws in RL -- stores, other than grocery stores, could not be open on Sundays. It was hold over from our early religious days here in the US where Sunday was the Sabbath and we were supposed to do nothing besides worship on that day.  Even though I thought the laws were ridiculous, I somewhat understood where it came from because way, way back, life was quite often rule by religion.  However, these days, not so much.  There are still some RL places that do not open on Sunday for religious reasons and there are people that refuse to work on Sunday for religious reasons.  I don't have any problems with personal choices like that as long as the government is not imposing it on us like they used to.

I don't have any issues with anyone in SL refusing to log in on their Sabbath or do any SL work /activity on their holy day.  I am a tad confused, however, on how allowing sales from their store fit into the religious views.  Admittedly, I am not religious by any means, and thus many religious views perplex me.

Has anyone encountered such in SL before?

Edited by LittleMe Jewell
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I encountered a store like this recently (and perhaps we are talking about the same one) and I was surprised and curious. Of course, I respect that person's decision and admire their commitment to shutting their store each week during those hours.

As I understand it (and as this is not my faith, feel free to correct me anyone), some religions have rules/commandments/traditions/etc against not only working but also earning money on the Sabbath. This would include passive income, like someone in SL purchasing from your store even when you aren't there. That is why (I'm guessing) they would prefer that people not violate their wishes by attempting to shop from a nearby parcel.

Edited by Mirah Vieria
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I haven't encountered a situation like this yet in SL, but I don't frequent a large number of stores.  Kudo's to them for this commitment, particularly as Saturday appears to be a busy day inworld.  I'm not familiar with prohibitions about earning money on the Sabbath, but it wouldn't surprise me to find that is a part of some religious group.   I hope that shoppers will respect their wishes.   (I'm guessing they must not have a MP store?)

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I don't live in a large enough city in RL I suppose, to notice if there are local stores that would normally be open on a Saturday but are not because of Sabbath.  The last time I encountered anything similar was years ago visiting with friends in a small predominantly Seventh Day Adventist town, and I think all the stores there were closed for Sabbath.  I am not an atheist, and I do enjoy learning about various faiths and how they live out their faith beliefs.

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1 minute ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

I am not the least bit put out by not being able to shop at that store during any particular 24 hour period.  I had never encountered such in SL before and was quite curious about it, especially since I had never encountered anything related to passively earning money connected to religious beliefs.

I appreciated the thread, I learnt something I think is quite useful as a result of it.

I used to live in an orthodox area of my city, inside an eruv. All of my neighbors and many friends in the area were Jewish. I did know some of the laws that were being obeyed on the Sabbath as a result, but this topic, of the crossover into digital was new to me. It was good learning :)

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4 hours ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

I happened to see a notice in a store that I frequent quite a bit that states the store will now be closing on Fridays at sunset until Saturday at sunset - title "Closed on Sabbath".  And the notice specifically states that if you cam shop from a neighboring store during that time, you may be banned from the store. 

When I was a child, we had Blue Laws in RL -- stores, other than grocery stores, could not be open on Sundays. It was hold over from our early religious days here in the US where Sunday was the Sabbath and we were supposed to do nothing besides worship on that day.  Even though I thought the laws were ridiculous, I somewhat understood where it came from because way, way back, life was quite often rule by religion.  However, these days, not so much.  There are still some RL places that do not open on Sunday for religious reasons and there are people that refuse to work on Sunday for religious reasons.  I don't have any problems with personal choices like that as long as the government is not imposing it on us like they used to.

 I don't have any issues with anyone in SL refusing to log in on their Sabbath or do any SL work /activity on their holy day.  I am a tad confused, however, on how allowing sales from their store fit into the religious views.  Admittedly, I am not religious by any means, and thus many religious views perplex me.

Has anyone encountered such in SL before?

While making no sense to me it might for some more traditionalist jews.

  • Any activity considered work is forbidden - that might include passive sales from a website or SL vendour.
  • Any activity considered creating is forbidden - that might include creating a copy through a vendour.
  • The lighting of fire is forbidden - many traditionalist jews consider electricity fire, so any computer activity might be affected.

Those are just the laws I, a non-jew, could spot. There might be more. I already said they make not much sense to me, but please respect them anyways - The store owner didn't put up that sign out of a fancy, they just actually try to live by the book.

Edited by Fionalein
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Oh; I forgot - as this thread now goes into a dangerous direction:

IBTL!

(I nowadays consider posting IBTL! as a subtle reminder that the thread still obvioulsy is not locked and could actually be saved)

Edited by Fionalein
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Not going in to my personal viewpoint because have not had enough coffee yet but the online retail aspect of Sabbath/Shabbat observance interested me. Found a piece in the NYT from Jan 10th 2006 that covered some of this. (Not sure about external link policy so search for it 'Never on the Sabbath:For some online retailers, it works' ).

 

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I have worked with many people (quite a few on my project team currently actually) who opt(ed) not to work on a particular day. For them, and their beliefs, any amount of making money online, or any work done online, is all considered taboo. In fact, they don't even access the internet during these specific times. So, if our project team is doing any work that happens to fall on these days, we can expect to be X amount of people short that day..we accept that, because we respect their beliefs even if not everyone actually understands them.

I also have a friend who has an online store with a handful of employees, she doesn't do any work on Sundays, but she does ensure that there are at least a couple employees on hand that make do in her absence (ie, they play her role). It's worked for the last 12 years or so, I imagine it'll continue doing so, lol.  They don't shut the website down or anything like that, they just ensure she doesn't have to do any work at all. 

It is an interesting topic, especially when you bring about the whole online bit. Online stores might have a far more difficult time shuttering the doors, as it were, for even just a day, much less more than that. Not because they don't want to be observant, but because by its very nature online stores have changed how humans shop, humans have grown used to online stores being 24/7 stores(lack of better terminology on my part...my apologies). I can see why someone in sl would want to shut their doors to observe whatever belief they wish, but I too wonder how mucky that water gets when the store owner also has satellite store(s), or an MP presence. Is it just the main store that gets locked up, does it include any location or affiliate vendors if the seller has them, or the MP? I can imagine to go through the steps necessary to prevent all purchases during this time, would be a royal pain in the butt. I have met many a people that choose not to login on certain days or certain times, due to religious beliefs, I can't say I have ever run across anyone that shuts their sl store down though. Kudos, I suppose, to anyone that so strongly believes in something, they believe they must take all necessary steps to ensure they can follow their own beliefs (does that make sense anywhere other than my head?) I know I sure as hell couldn't do it, all that work, ensuring that NO ONE can buy, regardless of the reason...it would be a bit much for me. I think, for *me* and *me* only, I don't believe the rewards would be worth the effort, lol. But, again..I think it's interesting to ponder, and kudos to folks with such strongly ingrained and respected (by your own self of course) beliefs that they'd be willing to go to those measures just to follow whatever rule it is that they are told to follow (and I'm not knocking it, in the least).

 

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5 minutes ago, Tari Landar said:

I have worked with many people (quite a few on my project team currently actually) who opt(ed) not to work on a particular day. For them, and their beliefs, any amount of making money online, or any work done online, is all considered taboo. In fact, they don't even access the internet during these specific times. So, if our project team is doing any work that happens to fall on these days, we can expect to be X amount of people short that day..we accept that, because we respect their beliefs even if not everyone actually understands them.

I also have a friend who has an online store with a handful of employees, she doesn't do any work on Sundays, but she does ensure that there are at least a couple employees on hand that make do in her absence (ie, they play her role). It's worked for the last 12 years or so, I imagine it'll continue doing so, lol.  They don't shut the website down or anything like that, they just ensure she doesn't have to do any work at all. 

It is an interesting topic, especially when you bring about the whole online bit. Online stores might have a far more difficult time shuttering the doors, as it were, for even just a day, much less more than that. Not because they don't want to be observant, but because by its very nature online stores have changed how humans shop, humans have grown used to online stores being 24/7 stores(lack of better terminology on my part...my apologies). I can see why someone in sl would want to shut their doors to observe whatever belief they wish, but I too wonder how mucky that water gets when the store owner also has satellite store(s), or an MP presence. Is it just the main store that gets locked up, does it include any location or affiliate vendors if the seller has them, or the MP? I can imagine to go through the steps necessary to prevent all purchases during this time, would be a royal pain in the butt. I have met many a people that choose not to login on certain days or certain times, due to religious beliefs, I can't say I have ever run across anyone that shuts their sl store down though. Kudos, I suppose, to anyone that so strongly believes in something, they believe they must take all necessary steps to ensure they can follow their own beliefs (does that make sense anywhere other than my head?) I know I sure as hell couldn't do it, all that work, ensuring that NO ONE can buy, regardless of the reason...it would be a bit much for me. I think, for *me* and *me* only, I don't believe the rewards would be worth the effort, lol. But, again..I think it's interesting to ponder, and kudos to folks with such strongly ingrained and respected (by your own self of course) beliefs that they'd be willing to go to those measures just to follow whatever rule it is that they are told to follow (and I'm not knocking it, in the least).

 

This is a lot of non-grounded hypothesizing which again, was based on the original poster's refusal just to simply and quietly accept the reason for a person's request related to religious practice.

If they didn't shut their MP, maybe it's because it's too much of a hassle to take it down and put it up again. At least they've mitigated it by making a request for a soft norm, i.e. even if "you can" because of some electronic exigency, you won't, as a courtesy. It also saves people buying something, then wanting customer service, then finding the merchant isn't available.

Why is this so hard? It's not.

 Putting out a sign that a store is closed and requesting that people not buy on the Sabbath is merely making and placing a sign. It's not work. It isn't "taking all necessary steps" as if they are binding themselves up with seven chains. It's just a request. Sounds like the hard work is in people accepting it, and "needing" to have an explanation for it.

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Why should ANY superstitious practice be "simply and quietly accepted"?

And putting a sign out stating that the shop is closed for "Sabbath" and requesting that people don't buy there during that time, is simply shoving one's superstitious beliefs into the faces of anybody else.

Edited by ThorinII
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1 minute ago, ThorinII said:

Why should ANY superstitious practice be "simply and quietly accepted"?

And putting a sign out stating that the shop is closed for "Sabbath" is simply shoving their superstitious beliefs into the faces of anybody else.

Is it, though? You're coming to their store, they're not bringing the sign to you. For me, it comes right back to what I said. Sometimes people want a day off. I don't begrudge 'em for that, even if I disagree with the reason.

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it´s kind of interesting to see it in SL, too - I´ve never encountered that before.

IMHO it caters to those screaming for realism and "SL IS LIKE RL!!!!!!!!11111!!!!1" cos - believe it or not.... in Germany shops are closed on Sundays (well 99% of the shops are...) it might be an old religious tradition, yes, but there´s work-communities and contracts stating that Sundays are off... Just now the city of Bonn had their "advent shopping Sundays" cancelled by the District Courthouse in Cologne. We live ;)

@LittleMe Jewell did you gather any more info about the owners? Are they german? (yes I use the lower case on purpose...no I´m not patriotic...) and... would you mind poking me inworld with some names?^^ I´m seriously intrigued who´d do that ^^ I mean on one hand it shows they hold their values close, even put them over profit (cos they lose a whole day of inworld income - not including the marketplace^^), on the other hand apparently they even repell people by it... For the record - I´m religious, roman catholic, too, but I´m not much of a hardliner so there´s a grey area, too xD

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8 hours ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

  I am a tad confused, however, on how allowing sales from their store fit into the religious views.  Admittedly, I am not religious by any means, and thus many religious views perplex me.

They want their store closed on the Sabbath. Like RL.

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2 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

 

If they didn't shut their MP, maybe it's because it's too much of a hassle to take it down and put it up again.

IF they don't want to sell on their religious resting day, they should take it down and also disable the vendors in their stores. Otherwise their believes isn't that deep at all.

If the don't they bring others into temptation and thats a bigger sin. It's kinda absurd to threathen others with bans if they dare to camshop.

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about why shops and businesses still shut on Sundays in some countries

yes in the beginning it was for religious reasons in the main. But also for family reasons which become more of a reason as the industrial revolution progressed.  Then in response to workers organising themselves at that time, the 40 hour work week was realised. So the weekend in most western countries  became family time at least for most workers, other than emergency and critical services workers

in the last 30-40 years in lots of western countries the idea that we work Monday to Friday and have the weekend off to spend with our families has been eroded

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The thing is, my timezone isn't compatible with a specific 24hour period where a store owner might reside.  So it might be Sunday 'there' but it might be Monday 'here'. 

And in RL I can buy on line 24/7, so I just don't understand why a store in SL, a virtual world, would do that, when transactions by and large are automated.

It doesn't bother me at all, I just don't get why.

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It is wrong to expect from everyone to respect and follow your own specific beliefs, leave them a way to disrespect those beliefs and then punish them for doing so. SL is a global place and by entering a global market one has to think globally and make sure everything is covered! Before asking to respect your own rules we should make sure we respect others and one way of respecting is not expecting everyone to follow your ideas. 

In RL I was raised as atheist and I'm not practicing any religion, officially. But I try as much as I can to understand, respect and apply positive things that can be found in different religions. 

By imposing rules about one day in week that is free of work religions actually force people to use that free day and focus on their own well being, to work on their soul and be better people (or at least think that, by practicing these things, they are becoming better). This is the time to pray, to rest, maybe even to spend time with your family, kids.... I respect this and will try to let people alone on that specific day.

SL is perfect place to see how other people, religions, nations do certain things. But, what is sad, instead of trying to find something positive in their rules, we focus on the differences. It is not a competition and we're not trying to find the best religion or best kind of people. 

And concerning the specific topic, my opinion is that the store owner needs to make sure they have done everything in their power to respect their own religious rules. There is no excuse like "ohh it is too much hassle to disable all vendors I will just ban people!". That is wrong and it shows negativity. The store owner can't know all kinds of people who will end up at their store's front doors and they can't expect all those people to obey. It is simply not possible. It is wrong on many levels. 

 

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17 minutes ago, BelindaN said:

The thing is, my timezone isn't compatible with a specific 24hour period where a store owner might reside.  So it might be Sunday 'there' but it might be Monday 'here'. 

And in RL I can buy on line 24/7, so I just don't understand why a store in SL, a virtual world, would do that, when transactions by and large are automated.

It doesn't bother me at all, I just don't get why.

I certainly respect anyone's desire to respect Shabbat, but in Second Life there are significant problems with doing it.

The merchant is saying that their Shabbat goes from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday. What determines that? It should be the time when the sun sets for the merchant, but the customer would probably have no way of knowing that, especially given that the exact time of sunset changes every day. I'm curious how the merchant plans to enforce this.

This, of course, completely ignores the fact that the sun rises and sets every four hours in Second Life.

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Tamara,

21 minutes ago, Tamara Artis said:

And concerning the specific topic, my opinion is that the store owner needs to make sure they have done everything in their power to respect their own religious rules. There is no excuse like "ohh it is too much hassle to disable all vendors I will just ban people!". That is wrong and it shows negativity. The store owner can't know all kinds of people who will end up at their store's front doors and they can't expect all those people to obey. It is simply not possible. It is wrong on many levels. 

 

Tamara this is way outside what LittleMe reported. The report is that if people cam shop from outside the parcel the shop owner will ban them. To get banned for cam shopping means that the shopkeeper has locked their doors  (put their parcel banlines up)

the RL equivalent of cam shopping is on finding the shop locked shut, reaching in thru an open window, grabbing what you want and leaving the money.  That's not acceptable behaviour

 

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4 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

This is a lot of non-grounded hypothesizing which again, was based on the original poster's refusal just to simply and quietly accept the reason for a person's request related to religious practice.

If they didn't shut their MP, maybe it's because it's too much of a hassle to take it down and put it up again. At least they've mitigated it by making a request for a soft norm, i.e. even if "you can" because of some electronic exigency, you won't, as a courtesy. It also saves people buying something, then wanting customer service, then finding the merchant isn't available.

Why is this so hard? It's not.

 Putting out a sign that a store is closed and requesting that people not buy on the Sabbath is merely making and placing a sign. It's not work. It isn't "taking all necessary steps" as if they are binding themselves up with seven chains. It's just a request. Sounds like the hard work is in people accepting it, and "needing" to have an explanation for it.

But if someone requests that you, say, don't distribute a script even though it's technically full permission, heck, a person can go ahead and do it anyway because you don't need to respect the thinking of that "cult":

 

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Ethan, if you are confused then is best to say why and get some clarification. Or you gunna be confused forever

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