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Bakes on Mesh Feedback Thread

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On 9/12/2019 at 4:59 AM, FaintOutline said:

...

On the other hand the skins and tattoos are a breeze.  I was using some new Glam Affair BOM skins -....

Where did you get Glam Affair BOM skins?  I looked at every section of the Glam Affair store and there is no mention of BoM anywhere.  Is it a secret?

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1 hour ago, anna2358 said:

Where did you get Glam Affair BOM skins?  I looked at every section of the Glam Affair store and there is no mention of BoM anywhere.  Is it a secret?

Her most recent head appliers have also included a system skin. I'm not sure if she's released any body specific system skins yet.

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1 minute ago, Blush Bravin said:

Her most recent head appliers have also included a system skin. I'm not sure if she's released any body specific system skins yet.

She made some for Fifty Linden Friday, maybe a month ago.  There was a Genus applier included.

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1 hour ago, Blush Bravin said:

Her most recent head appliers have also included a system skin. I'm not sure if she's released any body specific system skins yet.

Then why or why or WHY isn't there ANY information in store?

I am not buying anything until I can prove they will work.  Been there lost my shirt before.

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28 minutes ago, anna2358 said:

Then why or why or WHY isn't there ANY information in store?

I am not buying anything until I can prove they will work.  Been there lost my shirt before.

Yeah usually you can tell if there are system skins included. But you are right -- at 500L and up you want to know for sure.

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42 minutes ago, anna2358 said:

Then why or why or WHY isn't there ANY information in store?

I am not buying anything until I can prove they will work.  Been there lost my shirt before.

 

12 minutes ago, FaintOutline said:

Yeah usually you can tell if there are system skins included. But you are right -- at 500L and up you want to know for sure.

The vendors I saw were clearly labeled as having a system layer included.

cb259e45e2c86e171e4eea330112adef.pngThis is a GA skin at the Salem event.

But I have no idea if she's released any system skins for the body. Also, I don't know if the system skin included with this head applier is for the entire body or just the head. Perhaps if you are really wanting to know you could contact the CSR for GA.

 

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5 hours ago, Blush Bravin said:

The vendors I saw were clearly labeled as having a system layer included.

This is a GA skin at the Salem event.

But I have no idea if she's released any system skins for the body. Also, I don't know if the system skin included with this head applier is for the entire body or just the head. Perhaps if you are really wanting to know you could contact the CSR for GA.

A system skin can't be for just a head or just a body. You can't mix-and-match them like you do with head & body appliers, you can only wear one at a time. Head and body together, all in one.

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Posted (edited)

@Matty Luminos I think the issue facing skin makers now that BoM here is tricky.  Before mesh body parts life was relatively simple.  You made a skin and sold them mostly by the tone as a complete skin, easy.  Now we have different head and body combinations.  Not all skins look good on all mesh heads, not all skins look good on all bodies.  If a skin maker wants to create the best result then they have to target combinations.  Apart from the huge task of supporting more than a couple of combinations the issue the biggest problems is how does the skin maker present these options at sale for the customer.  The simplest but most work is the put different combinations together such as Maitreya/Lelutka, Maitreya/Catwa, Maitreya/Genus, Belleza Freya/Lelutka, Belleza Freya/Catwa, Belleza Freya/Genus, etc.  You get the idea and this is only a sample of three heads and two bodies for each tone.  In addition to this no matter how clearly items are marked, some customers will find this confusing and make mistakes.  They have to choose the right combination and right tone now.  Of course the skin maker could just put all head and body combinations for a single tone in one package to cut down options but that would either mean giving more away for the same money or drastically increasing the cost of the package which risks making them look like an expensive option by comparison.

So there seems to be a proposal floating around to do a body skin and head tattoo layers (or vice-versa for some variants of the proposal) to help solve this, instead of choosing a combination package, you choose a partial skin and then choose a tattoo for your that is more specific to "complete" the skin.  I have to say that if I were to buy a BoM skin, this would not be an attractive option for me and seems to be counter-intuitive for people coming from classic skins.

It will be interesting to see what happens.

Edited by Gabriele Graves

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3 hours ago, Matty Luminos said:

A system skin can't be for just a head or just a body. You can't mix-and-match them like you do with head & body appliers, you can only wear one at a time. Head and body together, all in one.

But, many system skins that were included with body appliers had blank faces.

Also, Deetalez has just released a BoM versions for a few of her newest skins.  The head appliers only come with tattoo layers for the face.   The body appliers have been updated with new system layers, but those come with a big sign on the face of them, telling you need to buy the head tattoo.

Soooo, yes... they can be sold separately.

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Ok, I think baked on mesh is very interesting and has a lot of potential ... but I'm extremely frustrated that I can't find a way to keep my default Maitreya Lara skin that is applied via the HUD.  I'm stuck with whatever system layer skin I have on.  The default Maitreya skin (which I believe is from Glam Affair) blended seamlessly with my Lelutka mesh head.  That's a big deal for me.  And as far as I can tell, Glam Affair doesn't seem to carry system layer skins anymore.  And even if they did, I suspect the fingers and toes would be messed up if i used them with BoM.

Is anyone else frustrated by the same issue?  Is there a work around?

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2 hours ago, Jaelee Avon said:

Ok, I think baked on mesh is very interesting and has a lot of potential ... but I'm extremely frustrated that I can't find a way to keep my default Maitreya Lara skin that is applied via the HUD.  I'm stuck with whatever system layer skin I have on.  The default Maitreya skin (which I believe is from Glam Affair) blended seamlessly with my Lelutka mesh head.  That's a big deal for me.  And as far as I can tell, Glam Affair doesn't seem to carry system layer skins anymore.  And even if they did, I suspect the fingers and toes would be messed up if i used them with BoM.

Is anyone else frustrated by the same issue?  Is there a work around?

With Maitreya's updated body (when it's available) you will not be forced to use BOM skins. You can continue to use the applier skins in the Maitreya HUD, or any other applier skins and you can use BOM skins too.

I saw the following in Maitreya Friends group on 5 October 2019 by Gryphon Ronas the CSR of Maitreya - so this is official info:

[16:06] gяуρнση (Gryphon Ronas): When the update comes out you will be able to use layer based alpha *or* you can continue to use the alpha cuts in the HUD and AutoHide.  Autohide will still work, in fact, it will work better

[16:15] gяуρнση (Gryphon Ronas): In simple terms, you will be able to use the body the same way you do today if you so choose.  BoM is 100% optional

[16:16] gяуρнση (Gryphon Ronas): This is not a BoM update - it's an update that happens to include BoM.  It's only one little part of the overall project

[16:17] gяуρнση (Gryphon Ronas): It will be a free update

 

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I am curious as to why since the new BOM feature my once 0 complexity avatar is now showing a complexity of 1,000. Is there something I am missing? I have checked wireframe and everything else I can think of,.... but there is nothing I can find to add anything to the complexity of an avatar that is an invisible avatar, and only wearing only a base shape, blank skin, hair, and eyes. 

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46 minutes ago, Baldi McMillan said:

I am curious as to why since the new BOM feature my once 0 complexity avatar is now showing a complexity of 1,000. Is there something I am missing? I have checked wireframe and everything else I can think of,.... but there is nothing I can find to add anything to the complexity of an avatar that is an invisible avatar, and only wearing only a base shape, blank skin, hair, and eyes. 

Because it is Linden lab's way of showing you that Complexity Score means nothing and is really just a placebo to make you think that you get better performance by how low that score is..

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53 minutes ago, Baldi McMillan said:

I am curious as to why since the new BOM feature my once 0 complexity avatar is now showing a complexity of 1,000. Is there something I am missing? I have checked wireframe and everything else I can think of,.... but there is nothing I can find to add anything to the complexity of an avatar that is an invisible avatar, and only wearing only a base shape, blank skin, hair, and eyes. 

Hi Baldi,

The base avatar has been a rendering cost of 1000 for quite a while. Here's a link to the wiki http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Mesh/Rendering_weight

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2 hours ago, Alyona Su said:

I am curious as to why since the new BOM feature my once 0 complexity avatar is now showing a complexity of 1,000. Is there something I am missing? I have checked wireframe and everything else I can think of,.... but there is nothing I can find to add anything to the complexity of an avatar that is an invisible avatar, and only wearing only a base shape, blank skin, hair, and eyes. 

Complexity readings are constantly changing, depending on what else is going on around you.  It used to drive me nuts when out somewhere and the message about my complexity was constantly changing,  second to second... your complexity is XXXXX no one can see you... your complexity is XXXXXX  most people can see you .. your complexity is XXXXXX every one can see you..  and seconds later back to no one can see you..  and that is without changing a darn thing on my own avatar...  In my humble opinion, this complexity thing is most definitely complex and impossible to control since it is influenced by everything and everyone around me...  And is not all that helpful to anyone in the end... just annoying..  I now have all complexity information shut off.. so I see everyone and I don't get second to second messages.. and if folks don't see me, well I am sorry.  This complexity thing was supposed to make the experience in SL better.. well it certainly did NOT accomplish that for me..

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Tazzie Tuque said:
2 hours ago, Alyona Su said:

I am curious as to why since the new BOM feature my once 0 complexity avatar is now showing a complexity of 1,000. Is there something I am missing? I have checked wireframe and everything else I can think of,.... but there is nothing I can find to add anything to the complexity of an avatar that is an invisible avatar, and only wearing only a base shape, blank skin, hair, and eyes. 

Complexity readings are constantly changing, depending on what else is going on around you.  It used to drive me nuts when out somewhere and the message about my complexity was constantly changing,  second to second... your complexity is XXXXX no one can see you... your complexity is XXXXXX  most people can see you .. your complexity is XXXXXX every one can see you..  and seconds later back to no one can see you..  and that is without changing a darn thing on my own avatar...  In my humble opinion, this complexity thing is most definitely complex and impossible to control since it is influenced by everything and everyone around me...  And is not all that helpful to anyone in the end... just annoying..  I now have all complexity information shut off.. so I see everyone and I don't get second to second messages.. and if folks don't see me, well I am sorry.  This complexity thing was supposed to make the experience in SL better.. well it certainly did NOT accomplish that for me..

FYI: Forum Glitch - the words of the person you are quoting is not me, but the person ABOVE me. So it's shows the wrong name in the quoted portion. Just an FYI for any other readers here. :)

Edit to add: I know it's a forums glitch because it's happened to me before also. LOL

Edited by Alyona Su

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The number of people reported as being able to see you is the result of their own viewer settings. Changing one's own viewer's maximum complexity in company will result in those other people getting those messages. It's an excellent way of being annoying.

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1 minute ago, KT Kingsley said:

The number of people reported as being able to see you is the result of their own viewer settings. Changing one's own viewer's maximum complexity in company will result in those other people getting those messages. It's an excellent way of being annoying.

Public Service Announcement about Complexity Scores:

The purpose of the complexity score is to create a threshold of when to jelly-doll others. Setting that score to a high-value, above 250,000, for example, entirely defeats the purpose because your performance is still affected by all that you can see. (A general "you," meaning all of you.) I keep my own set to about 200,000 because, truth be told, most others I see around me just aren't that interesting to look at in general situations and scenarios. Though I will turn it up to 250,000 when I'm people-watching, and *maybe* 300,000 when in a role-play region (because Demons can be really high CS.)

BoM will help lower complexity scores (which is a wonderful thing) - meaning better system performance for everyone.

Eventually.

Like in five years or so.

When it's more than an early-adopter fad and BoM actually becomes a "Thing".

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Frankly it has finally occurred to me that BOM is totally optional.  Maybe the market will tolerate its quirks or maybe they won't.

A great deal of effort has been expended by Genus, Lelutka and others in providing creative control over applied layers, in the form of tinting and opacity.   I use a very light skin and it is important to tint and have low opacity to go with my light skin tone (I use Enfer Sombre Albino).     I lose these features in BOM, totally.  All I can do if I use BOM -- is it try to find ready made light colors I like, or try to make my own brows for instance.   

I only use layers for tattoos.  I don't need 60 layers of makeup, but I am aware there are those who desire it.  But I like a simple modern fashionable look of almost no evidence of makeup.

So BOM does not serve me at all as a user, appliers are much more useful - for me personally.

And 

At least one BOM body exists where alpha cuts have been removed.   Some creators have put a lot of energy into making alpha cut huds really useful for quickly fitting clothes.   I do not want to make my own alphas, and many clothes have none.   So I am not likely to love a body without them.   Some who enjoy making tech may in fact find making alphas fun -- but I equate photoshop with work.  And I don't come to SL -- to work or make a living.  However probably 90% of clothing can slide by with sloppy ready made alphas just fine (I have tried it).

So I hope we are a at a moment of divergence -- two systems.     

And yes I know that BOM may reduce the server load by as much as 5% but we all know computer horsepower will increase constantly - so maybe "meh." 

I want the market to sort this out.

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6 hours ago, FaintOutline said:

<snip>....

I want the market to sort this out.

You may wait a while.  Marketing people are not known for 'soon'.

Right now no one knows how this will shake out.  I want to convert to BoM to get the lag benefits, but the complexities of the different marketing approaches of the vendors is overwhelming.  I understand the technology, but I'm not convinced the creators understand the market.

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I'm confused.

I was "quoted" but my statement, "BOM isn't going to be the only option until it's third party." wasn't.

Nothing is the "only option" until it's released into the wild webs and everyone uses it.

Second confusion:

Creators are marketers?

Some of us aren't rich and famous, even enough to fix known problems with our stuff, (like bellies that go cubist because of bad maths.  Seriously, I think a small paid vacation could help with that.)

Third confusion:

Creators are supposed to find all their own bugs, even on demo and freebies? 

Maybe follow the creator's (s') bug reporting issue instead of crying over a haypenny or quincent on the shop page?

Fourth confusion:

Is clothing for mesh bodies sold as only models?

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, FaintOutline said:

A great deal of effort has been expended by Genus, Lelutka and others in providing creative control over applied layers, in the form of tinting and opacity.   I use a very light skin and it is important to tint and have low opacity to go with my light skin tone (I use Enfer Sombre Albino).     I lose these features in BOM, totally.

 

As far as tinting, you can tint system tattoos individually if they're modifiable.

As far as BOM being optional? Yes. It is. Who ever said that it wasn't?

Edited by Theresa Tennyson

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The BOM stuff I'm seeing looks flat, apparently because I've become used to having Advanced Lighting Model material (normal and specular) layers on clothes on the onion skin layers of mesh avatars.  Sansar auto-calculates a material system, but allows the creator to over-ride it.  We need something like that for BOM. 

Perhaps I'm missing something, but it seems to me that Bakes on Mesh is baking only one third of what needs to be baked (meaning only the diffuse texture, but not the normal and specular textures).

The only reason I can see for the manual three-texture upload process in Second Life (vs. Sansar), is that uploading three textures triples the upload revenue.  We all apply the Photoshop Filters twice (once for Normal, once for Specular), and upload two extra textures.  Frankly, I'd rather just pay the L$30 have have the servers do it for me.  Its mindless repetitive work better done by a computer than a human.

The problem with BOM, is now you can't even do that!  This BOM stuff is a big step backwards.

Edited by Erwin Solo

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3 hours ago, Erwin Solo said:

The BOM stuff I'm seeing looks flat, apparently because I've become used to having Advanced Lighting Model material (normal and specular) layers on clothes on the onion skin layers of mesh avatars.  Sansar auto-calculates a material system, but allows the creator to over-ride it.  We need something like that for BOM. 

What data would the system use to calculate it?

Personally I don't see how much better bumpy, shiny body paint is than regular body paint. I'm one of the biggest advocates for BOM but I've never said it's a good solution for outer-layer clothing.

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6 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

What data would the system use to calculate it?

Personally I don't see how much better bumpy, shiny body paint is than regular body paint. I'm one of the biggest advocates for BOM but I've never said it's a good solution for outer-layer clothing.

One of two options.

One, make separate mesh clothing work the way it always has, with the addition of an image fetch for the print.

I could see that causing hems and seams in the wrong spot.

Two, png encryption actually being read, like it already is on every other object.

As far as I know there are two types of png encryption.

Color slide and alpha layer.

An alpha layer encryption has a print, a typographical layer, a shiny layer, then an alpha layer, all in the same file.

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