Bakes on Mesh Feedback Thread

[Tazzie Tuque]

37 minutes ago, anna2358 said:

Yes, we all know that Maitreya have not yet released their BoM version, what you get right now is the pre-BoM body with a BoM applier.  I was talking about the promised 'real thing'.

I for one am not in a huge rush to get the Maitreya BOM body..  I would much rather the creator take all the time needed to get it right, take into consideration all the comments that have been made in here thus far, and come up with something everyone can be happy with.. including an alpha hud pretty much as it is now only that will work with BOM.. I cannot see functioning with mesh clothing without one and I rather doubt that folks are ready to give up mesh clothing lol.

[Silas Merlin]

2 hours ago, Tazzie Tuque said:

I for one am not in a huge rush to get the Maitreya BOM body..  I would much rather the creator take all the time needed to get it right, take into consideration all the comments that have been made in here thus far, and come up with something everyone can be happy with.. including an alpha hud pretty much as it is now only that will work with BOM.. I cannot see functioning with mesh clothing without one and I rather doubt that folks are ready to give up mesh clothing lol.

The thing is, with BOM, any programmer could make your alpha HUD that will be compatible with all bodies (except for any extra mesh part that does not correspond to the system uv's)

anyway, you can use old system clothing alphas to hide parts of your BOM body.

 

[Tazzie Tuque]

30 minutes ago, Silas Merlin said:

anyway, you can use old system clothing alphas to hide parts of your BOM body.

Not if you want to hide like one arm and leave the other visible .. the old system alphas were always totally symetrical and clothing in mesh is not always so.  and we have seen this debate here before..  and I agree with those who do NOT want to be wasting time making alphas that probably won't serve the purpose I want it to anyhow.  I am capable of it I just don't think I should have to when a properly made hud for the specific body could be done to eliminate that need to go backwards to system alphas.

[Silas Merlin]

7 minutes ago, Tazzie Tuque said:

Not if you want to hide like one arm and leave the other visible .. the old system alphas were always totally symetrical and clothing in mesh is not always so.  and we have seen this debate here before..  and I agree with those who do NOT want to be wasting time making alphas that probably won't serve the purpose I want it to anyhow.  I am capable of it I just don't think I should have to when a properly made hud for the specific body could be done to eliminate that need to go backwards to system alphas.

Just thinking aloud here :

If you make it so that you can hide only your left arm with an alpha on a BOM body, that will mean that you can't use system skin at all, which makes BOM much less attractive.
As I stated above, to me it makes sense to use the left arm only as an onion skin that is invisible most of the time, you would use is only to add tattoos.

In that scenario, if you want to hide only the left arm you would have to use some other medhod with a BOM body, not an alpha, which can only hide both arms at the same time.
 

[Blush Bravin]

2 hours ago, Silas Merlin said:

As I stated above, to me it makes sense to use the left arm only as an onion skin that is invisible most of the time, you would use is only to add tattoos.

The HUGE problem with doing it this way is that then you once again have alpha glitching. IMO that's no solution at all.

[Silas Merlin]

11 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

The HUGE problem with doing it this way is that then you once again have alpha glitching. IMO that's no solution at all.

I only set the eyelashes to alpha blending. alpha masking for everything else. No glitching.

[Blush Bravin]

3 minutes ago, Silas Merlin said:

I only set the eyelashes to alpha blending. alpha masking for everything else. No glitching.

This assumes setting the alpha masking is possible, which with a no-mod body it is not. Besides tats really look bad when set to alpha masking.

[PenGemini]

@Blush Bravin well welcome to BoM world where alpha masking is your best friend, you are still thinking "onion" way, where it glitches and yes masking do look wierd, but with BoM all of that is baked on server and served to viewer as one image so no glitching and ....

[PenGemini]

In fact if a mesh body and its skin layer that is using BoM, is not set to masking, you will not be able to use system clothing alphas

[Blush Bravin]

On 11/2/2019 at 6:06 AM, Silas Merlin said:

to me it makes sense to use the left arm only as an onion skin that is invisible most of the time

 

1 hour ago, PenGemini said:

well welcome to BoM world where alpha masking is your best friend, you are still thinking "onion" way

@PenGemini I was commenting on Silas's suggestion to continue using an onion layer to get the left arm only tattoo. This is why I said then you will continue to have alpha glitching. I'm NOT talking about using a normal system layer tattoo on a BoM compatible body but the problem with the universal wearable for the left arm or leg.

[PenGemini]

I made my body and made onion layer for left arm and leg and there is 0 glitching, underlying skin layer is mask mode and onion for left is blend mode

Basically only possible way to make left arm/leg is to have dedicated face for it, and onion is the only solution for a tattoo, but there is a bug in there since you can't have regular tattoo than since it will show it on left arm as baked on skin layer. Does not matter if it is universal applied to upper and left, or universal only to left and regular tattoo layer

 

So basically LL gave us something that is called in universal layer Left arm Tattoo and Left leg tattoo that actually can't support tattoo's to be separate on left and right

Edited November 7, 2019 by PenGemini

[Silas Merlin]

10 minutes ago, PenGemini said:

I made my body and made onion layer for left arm and leg and there is 0 glitching, underlying skin layer is mask mode and onion for left is blend mode

Basically only possible way to make left arm/leg is to have dedicated face for it, and onion is the only solution for a tattoo, but there is a bug in there since you can't have regular tattoo than since it will show it on left arm as baked on skin layer. Does not matter if it is universal applied to upper and left, or universal only to left and regular tattoo layer

 

So basically LL gave us something that is called in universal layer Left arm Tattoo and Left leg tattoo that actually can't support tattoo's to be separate on left and right

I can see a way PanGemini.
However, it would have to be prepared by the creator of the skin, unless they sell the textures along with the skin.

First let's see if I understand the problem correctly.
You have the system uv on the mesh at bottom, and on top of that you have an onion skin layer that is set to left arm and left leg.
You can use system skin, but if you put a tattoo on your (right) arm, it also appears on the left arm, because they are mirrored overlapping islands.
However, you can add a tattoo to left arm only, since that will go on the onion skin layer, and not interfere with the system skin underneath.

Now if you want a tattoo on the right arm only, here is the solution I can think of :
Make a universal with the skin for the left arm slot.
This will go on the onion skin and hide the tattoo that is meant for the right arm only.
On top of that universal, you can add other left arm-specific tattoos.
 

[PenGemini]

yes with a skin it can be done, but than BoM is unusable for changing skin and baking it, not to mention that not many do have textures of actual favorite skin to make universal, so for now there is no way that we can make standalone universal tattoo and expect to work as intended, to have 2 different patterns on right and left arms or legs

And LL called it in universal "tattoo's" slots

Edited November 7, 2019 by PenGemini

[Silas Merlin]

19 minutes ago, PenGemini said:

yes with a skin it can be done, but than BoM is unusable for changing skin and baking it, not to mention that not many do have textures of actual favorite skin to make universal, so for now there is no way that we can make standalone universal tattoo and expect to work as intended, to have 2 different patterns on right and left arms or legs

And LL called it in universal "tattoo's" slots

Since this onion skin layer for left arm and left foot seems to be the only viable solution, I wonder if it would be possible for LL to create a tool allowing people to convert a skin they own to a universal for left arm and left foot ? It would solve this problem.
 

[Tazzie Tuque]

It all comes down to the templates for the body which must be used to make textures to be applied to the BOM body.  for the upper, arms there is only one arm on the template so of course you are going to get both arms identical for anything you make for BOM use.. clothing or skins or tattoos.  The lower body has both left and right legs so you can make each one different if you want to.  So either the template has to change or we are stuck in the dark ages with the arms thing (and hands as well).  I have to wonder,  how advanced this BOM thing can actually be if we are forced to use ancient templates..  And I do not suppose LL is about to update those any time soon.

[Drayke Newall]

6 hours ago, Silas Merlin said:

Since this onion skin layer for left arm and left foot seems to be the only viable solution, I wonder if it would be possible for LL to create a tool allowing people to convert a skin they own to a universal for left arm and left foot ? It would solve this problem.
 

I can just see the headlines and then the aftermath... "Linden Lab caught creating tool for copy botting or the potential of its use as such".

You have to realise, in the world of SL, you don't own anything only the licence to use the skin or item for its intended purpose.

Edited November 7, 2019 by Drayke Newall

[Blush Bravin]

The best solution I can see is for skinners to start including a universal wearable for both left arm and left leg in their skin packages that have system layers. I've started another thread specifically about this problem.

[Silas Merlin]

1 hour ago, Drayke Newall said:

I can just see the headlines and then the aftermath... "Linden Lab caught creating tool for copy botting or the potential of its use as such".

You have to realise, in the world of SL, you don't own anything only the licence to use the skin or item for its intended purpose.

LL owns the textures "as much as" the original creator. What I am suggesting is that the skin object be converted to a universal that serves the same purpose, except only for the left arm and left leg.
It is the same intended purpose i.e. use as skin.

 

1 hour ago, Blush Bravin said:

The best solution I can see is for skinners to start including a universal wearable for both left arm and left leg in their skin packages that have system layers. I've started another thread specifically about this problem.

The problem is that people's favourite skin textures can be 15 years old and the original creator is not around anymore to create the universal.

[Wulfie Reanimator]

10 hours ago, PenGemini said:

Basically only possible way to make left arm/leg is to have dedicated face for it, and onion is the only solution for a tattoo, but there is a bug in there since you can't have regular tattoo than since it will show it on left arm as baked on skin layer. Does not matter if it is universal applied to upper and left, or universal only to left and regular tattoo layer

 

9 hours ago, PenGemini said:

not to mention that not many do have textures of actual favorite skin to make universal, so for now there is no way that we can make standalone universal tattoo and expect to work as intended, to have 2 different patterns on right and left arms or legs

Is there something I'm missing since the pre-release of BOM?

For asymmetrical tattoos, you would wear the base skin, which is clean, and then add a universal tattoo layer for either the left (only left slot) or right (using tattooed upper and clean left slot) arm texture.

Or you can do it in reverse, using tattooed skin and adding a clean cover with layers.

In either case, this must obviously be set up by the creator. It was never implied that literally anyone can take any skin/tattoo and make it asymmetrical.

@Silas Merlin While LL owns the texture data itself, I don't think they own the creative IP. Even if they did own even that, LL has never made modifications to existing content to provide it to end-users.

Edited November 7, 2019 by Wulfie Reanimator

[PenGemini]

1 hour ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

Is there something I'm missing since the pre-release of BOM?

For asymmetrical tattoos, you would wear the base skin, which is clean, and then add a universal tattoo layer for either the left (only left slot) or right (using tattooed upper and clean left slot) arm texture.

we are talking about that both arms or feet have different texture, and we agreed that it is not possible without skin maker involved in tattoo creation, or to have skin as universal layer

Basically LL never intended that tattoo can be different, since universal do not respond to cloth layering and lays on top of already baked skin, tattoo, underwear, shirts, cloth.... It is clear that intention was to be able to have asymmetrical last layer on top of everything

But even that is questionable since you can't make it in a single universal layer, you will need 2 at least

Edited November 7, 2019 by PenGemini

[Blush Bravin]

2 hours ago, PenGemini said:

Basically LL never intended that tattoo can be different, since universal do not respond to cloth layering and lays on top of already baked skin, tattoo, underwear, shirts, cloth.... It is clear that intention was to be able to have asymmetrical last layer on top of everything

That's not what the knowledge base says about order of layers:

The Universal wearable has slots corresponding to all 11 of the new and old bake channels. In layering order, universal wearables go above the skin and tattoo wearables, and below all other types of clothing.

So clothing layers will go above the universal. The only layers that go under a universal is skin and tattoos.

[PenGemini]

2 hours ago, Blush Bravin said:

So clothing layers will go above the universal. The only layers that go under a universal is skin and tattoos.

You are right Blush  thanks for correcting me

[Hilary Querrien]

On 11/6/2019 at 11:05 PM, PenGemini said:

@Blush Bravin well welcome to BoM world where alpha masking is your best friend, you are still thinking "onion" way, where it glitches and yes masking do look wierd, but with BoM all of that is baked on server and served to viewer as one image so no glitching and ....

Hahaha. Alpha masking is unutterably evil. In the days of '5 sizes fits all' i had heaps of items where the alpha just plain didn't work (even with "standard" size bodies) and it's difficult (and costly) for someone like myself to try and fix them. with alpha cuts that you got on onion layers, it is so much easier and I am literraly crying at the thought of having to go back to alpha masks.

[Blush Bravin]

49 minutes ago, Hilary Querrien said:

Hahaha. Alpha masking is unutterably evil. In the days of '5 sizes fits all' i had heaps of items where the alpha just plain didn't work (even with "standard" size bodies) and it's difficult (and costly) for someone like myself to try and fix them. with alpha cuts that you got on onion layers, it is so much easier and I am literraly crying at the thought of having to go back to alpha masks.

I still find lots of issues with alpha cuts as well. Just this past weekend I bought a top that would not work with the alpha cuts no matter what I tried. The only answer was to make a system layer tattoo colored to match the top so that the skin clipping through the top at least wasn't flesh colored. As soon as the Maitreya body is fully BoM compliant you can bet I will use that tattoo to make an system alpha. Since we can wear up to 60 system layers it seems as though it would be quite easy to combine system alphas to get the combination that works with your clothing. Once you find that combination then save the outfit and you never have to worry about getting the magic combination that works with that clothing again. I'm super happy to get rid of alpha cuts and appliers. I love BoM!!!

[Hilary Querrien]

I'm not claiming alpha cuts solve everything. Just that not having to make your own alpha layers is a major major major plus point.

And I'm still waiting for Slink and Linden to come to some sort of arrangement whereby they can paint my slink nails underneath my sheer gloves/stockings - Slink have provide a thing on their redux hud which allows you to apply tints which is better than nothing but it's miles away from applier stockings. Especially if your stockings aren't plain.