Camping Chairs and Money Trees

[ItHadToComeToThis]

Correct me if I am wrong but were these two items banned in SL for some reason. I know prize versions exist but I am talking about the linden cash versions.

Can someone update me on the status of these two items?.

I was thinking of giving out cash rewards on sim for players who actively engage but would that be considered against TOS. Perhaps a magic tree that awards X if you engage X much?. Or sploders for the same?. 

Edited January 19, 2021 by ItHadToComeToThis

[Chic Aeon]

I never heard that they were banned. There were still some (no money but trees and set up) the last I looked. Wolfhaven (?) was the last to have active trees I believe. They were also active in Inworldz several years ago.   I just checked and only found one place advertising money trees. There were none there that I could find and the place was vintage to say the least.

I can't see why they would be against the TOS. They are not gambling. They are actually gifts.  But of course you have to find a TREE unless you have and old one. That would actually be something nice to have back on the grid. Very hard for new folks to get any money theses days.  

 

Are there still camping chairs?  I know that there are camp for products chairs as I sat in one in December for a cute dress LOL. 

 

Hopefully someone more engaged in the process will chime in. 

 

EDIT:  Honestly that was one of the highlights of my coming into SL. That and the magic money ball at NCI.  I mean we had NOTHING back then. A few lindens was a thrill. 

Edited January 19, 2021 by Chic Aeon

[Arielle Popstar]

Oh money trees are no longer around? Thought i ran across one 4-5 years ago still but not looked for them since. They were very instrumental for me sticking around for the first few months. Gave me some purpose and some L$ until i figured out what to do with my virtual life.

[Claireschen Hesten]

Camping itself isn't banned however how said devices could be used was changed my memory says it was to do with traffic. camping was primarily used to inflate a locations traffic score, you can't have a camping device out on a parcel set to show in search but if you section off a piece of the parcel and don't set it to show in search you're fine 

[Rowan Amore]

1 hour ago, ItHadToComeToThis said:

Correct me if I am wrong but were these two items banned in SL for some reason. I know prize versions exist but I am talking about the linden cash versions.

Can someone update me on the status of these two items?.

I was thinking of giving out cash rewards on sim for players who actively engage but would that be considered against TOS. Perhaps a magic tree that awards X if you engage X much?. Or sploders for the same?. 

I can't see why camping chairs would be a problem.  I think things were different when bots were used to game traffic.  Although, I think afk places are basically the same thing but that is a whole other can of worms.  Since you mentioned giving prizes to people who are actually engaged, that's no different than people standing around waiting on lucky chairs.

[Chaser Zaks]

Money trees I think are allowed and still around. I've been wanting to "plant" one for a while to give something to new residents.

I'm not quite sure on the policy regarding camping though. I know people used to get money for high traffic areas and LL phased that out because of camping, as well as made tweaks to the "traffic" calculations, but I don't think they have been explicitly disallowed.

[LittleMe Jewell]

Similar to Arielle, Money Trees is part of what kept me in SL the first couple of months - giving me a few L$ to help me out while I figure out if I like this place or not.

I thought Money Trees went the wayside when someone created bots that flittered around taking all the money as soon as it generated.

[Coffee Pancake]

Money trees gave me a leg up in SL at the start and I ran my own for a couple of years when I started my first store. They were great, a few L$ and taught fine camera skills .. especially when the money rezzed inside the trees.

They ended up getting gamed by people making new accounts and then the bots arrived and that was the end of that.

A real shame. I still imagine L$ as looking like the little notes I collected from trees.

🙁

[Lewis Luminos]

6 hours ago, ItHadToComeToThis said:

Correct me if I am wrong but were these two items banned in SL for some reason. I know prize versions exist but I am talking about the linden cash versions.

Can someone update me on the status of these two items?.

I was thinking of giving out cash rewards on sim for players who actively engage but would that be considered against TOS. Perhaps a magic tree that awards X if you engage X much?. Or sploders for the same?. 

They weren't banned but the rules for traffic changed so they were no longer of any benefit to the person owning them. That, and bots. As well as the bots that flitted around gobbling up all the money on the money trees as soon as they were generated, there were also bots who automatically parked themselves on a camping chair the moment it became vacant. This meant that it became impossible for any real person to obtain money from either of those things. Some bot-farms would create armies of new alts over and over, to get the money from the "30-days-old-and-under" trees.

Certain types of sploders are still allowed. If the sploder requires payment to play and always at least gives back that amount at a minimum, it's fine. It's also fine if it's a "click to play" where the player doesn't actually have to pay it at all.

The best way, IMO, is to use a Trivia game. Especially if you write your own questions. That's pretty much the only way to give money out that requires active participation and wouldn't all get swallowed up by bots. It does need an active host present to start the game though, you can't leave it running indefinitely. 

[Phil Deakins]

The definitive answer in no, neither camping nor money trees were ever banned. What is banned is gaming the traffic count on land that is set to show in search. That's it.

Camping was almost always merely a means to have avatars on land that is set to show in search, so that the traffic count increased. It was a tool to improve search rankings so that people would go to the store/club/whatever. That was when the traffic scores dictated the rankings, as it is now in 3rd party viewers, unless the user chooses the web search. It was allowed right up until LL banned the gaming of traffic.

If you find any camping now, on land that is in search, then it breaks the rules. It isn't allowed. Any camping now must be on land that is not in search. Some probably still exists.

Money trees were simply people being generous, and never infringed any rules.

 

[Rowan Amore]

7 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

The definitive answer in no, neither camping nor money trees were ever banned. What is banned is gaming the traffic count on land that is set to show in search. That's it.

Camping was almost always merely a means to have avatars on land that is set to show in search, so that the traffic count increased. It was a tool to improve search rankings so that people would go to the store/club/whatever. That was when the traffic scores dictated the rankings, as it is now in 3rd party viewers, unless the user chooses the web search. It was allowed right up until LL banned the gaming of traffic.

If you find any camping now, on land that is in search, then it breaks the rules. It isn't allowed. Any camping now must be on land that is not in search. Some probably still exists.

Money trees were simply people being generous, and never infringed any rules.

 

What I don't understand is, I've been to a few places that are near the top in search.  When I arrive, no one is around but of course the map shows several dozen avatars either on platforms or standing underwater.  Why is this allowed?  I know several people who have reported them yet years later, It's still happening.  And if third party viewers still use the traffic as search criteria, why don't they fix that?

Edited January 19, 2021 by RowanMinx

[Phil Deakins]

@RowanMinx If the avatars you see are obviously bots, on the same parcel, and not registered as Scripted Agents, then they are not allowed. When LL banned the gaming of traffic, they said that they didn't want users to report bots. Possibly because we can't see whether or not an avatar is registered as a Scripted Agent, and we would no doubt be swamping LL with false reports. But why are obvious bots reported and nothing done? Simple answer - LL doesn't care.

LL could ban or prevent 3rd party viewers from using the legacy search but, again, they don't care. LL isn't in it to be fair. They are in it for profits. It's a business.

[Lucia Nightfire]

Governance will NOT do anything against a cluster of noob avatars standing around on tiny platforms at high altitude.

I've AR'd this in many places for years.

Nothing has been done, nothing will be done.

If LL was even 1% serious about combatting such abuse they would change the taffic calculation to exclude "inactive" scenarios.

Such scenarios would be

• no # meter(s) change in user position while not sitting
• no # meter(s) change in user position while sitting
• no # meter(s) change in sit object position while sitting
• no controls usage after # minute(s)
• no open chat usage after # minute(s)
• no IM chat usage after # minute(s)
• no group chat usage after # minute(s)

Yes, the chat usage can be gamed far easier than movement.

Also, # meter(s) change would be dictated by parcel size. The larger the parcel the more distance change required.

Is any of this practical? Most of it probably isn't on its own, but they are some interesting points to consider in some combination or another.

And I'm aware not all environments are equal.

What factors would you consider when trying to make traffic more fair?

[Rowan Amore]

32 minutes ago, Lucia Nightfire said:

Governance will NOT do anything against a cluster of noob avatars standing around on tiny platforms at high altitude.

I've AR'd this in many places for years.

Nothing has been done, nothing will be done.

If LL was even 1% serious about combatting such abuse they would change the taffic calculation to exclude "inactive" scenarios.

Such scenarios would be

• no # meter(s) change in user position while not sitting
• no # meter(s) change in user position while sitting
• no # meter(s) change in sit object position while sittingemploy
• no controls usage after # minute(s)
• no open chat usage after # minute(s)
• no IM chat usage after # minute(s)
• no group chat usage after # minute(s)

Yes, the chat usage can be gamed far easier than movement.

Also, # meter(s) change would be dictated by parcel size. The larger the parcel the more distance change required.

Is any of this practical? Most of it probably isn't on its own, but they are some interesting points to consider in some combination or another.

And I'm aware not all environments are equal.

What factors would you consider when trying to make traffic more fair?

Honestly, all it would take was one employee visiting a region on 2 consecutive days and seeing the exact same avatars in the exact same spot to clear out this kind of abuse.  They are the only ones aware of who owns these accounts.  It would take maybe 5-10 minutes out of someone's day.  Each day and every day.  Maybe eventually, people will stop if they are aware of some kind of consequence.  As it is, like mentioned, LL does nothing whatsoever.  Why even bother making a rule if you have no intention of enforcing it?

[Polenth Yue]

Last time I looked, it was clear the money tree creator hadn't done anything in Second Life for a long time. The only new thing at the place was a prim with a complaint on it by a customer, about the breedable server disappearing without warning. The same is true for the list of active trees, which hasn't been running for ages. No list means nobody is coming to visit the tree.

[Mollymews]

On 1/19/2021 at 3:10 PM, ItHadToComeToThis said:

I was thinking of giving out cash rewards on sim for players who actively engage but would that be considered against TOS.

am pretty sure that we can give cash rewards if the person plays a game. For example is a few places that have board games which pay out a weekly prize to the high score.  I won 10L for high score off a greedy table a few weeks ago

if this was not allowed then games like Linden Realms (which is in Search) would be one rule for Linden and another rule for residents, and I am not sure that is the case

edit add: best tho to file a Support case and ask Linden before doing anything like this

Edited January 21, 2021 by Mollymews

[Phil Deakins]

On 1/20/2021 at 7:19 PM, RowanMinx said:

Why even bother making a rule if you have no intention of enforcing it?

Because, for a long time, there had been an outcry from some users about traffic bots. It was to pacify some users. The same users didn't complain about camping to improve traffic counts, perhaps because many of them still earned a bit of money from camping but, for some reason, they didn't like traffic bots.

Banning the gaming of traffic did nothing to help LL. If fact, it was detrimental to LL because a lot of avatars would no longer be logging in, so concurrency went down A LOT. A very significant percentage of the concurrency numbers was down to traffic bots. I alone withdrew 35+ avatars that used to log in all day. Most didn't use that many, but they still accounted for a very significant percentage of the concurrency figures. So banning traffic gaming was against LL's best interest at the time.

Edited January 25, 2021 by Phil Deakins

[FairreLilette]

Two questions.  

  *  For prizes, why couldn't one just have a random prize giver in their store, club or land?

and second question:

   * Why couldn't these kinds of "givers" be scripted to give out one prize per username?  Wouldn't that eliminate the need for bots if it's one prize per username?

Also, I like the idea of an egg.  And, further, color coded eggs that perhaps if one gets enough of a certain color, they win a specific prize.  Somehow, the eggs would need to be turned into a terminal of some kind of retrieve their prize.  

Edited January 25, 2021 by FairreLilette

[Maryanne Solo]

I've always been a tree hugger.
Then I came to SL and was proven correct
I have little knowledge of "Money Tree" lore in wirtual vorldz or RL.
Certainly, we have historical family based tradition that can take the guise of such.
(as most would do).

But it's this exact type of thing that made SL so gob-smackingly fantastic, 😲 so outrageous, 🤨
such fun.  

Edited January 25, 2021 by Maryanne Solo
Emboldened.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

For a reasonable part of my first year in SL -- 2008-2009 -- I hung out at a trivia place I'd found. The parcel, which was owned by a cigar-chomping 6-year old juvenile delinquent I've mentioned here before, and was done up as a children's playground and park, gave L$2, I think, for each correct answer to a trivia question that was broadcast via local across the parcel. You were in competition with others there: first correct answer received the prize. I think there was about one question per minute.

Sunflower Trivia allowed me to make enough money as a noob to buy better hair and clothing -- but more importantly, it helped me build up a small nest egg that I was able to use, after a few months, to start up my own very modest in-world business that itself became self-sustaining, and permitted me to buy still more nice hair and clothing.

But what was really cool about the place is that it created around itself a smallish but still very coherent and inclusive little community. We chatted and goofed around there while playing, and it became far more of a "home" for many than merely a way to earn money. I don't think many of the people I met there are still in SL, but a few of them I connected with on FB. I don't use Facebook very much at all anymore, but some of them are still there.

I don't know why Stormy had the parcel, nor why she offered money for trivia (she didn't have a business, and wouldn't have benefited from bloated traffic numbers) -- except that she liked people.

[Rat Luv]

I remember the $2L trivia machine at Bear Infohub! The questions repeated, so I ended up knowing all these facts about baseball, which I've totally forgotten now...

Some of the machine answers had typos too, so you had to type things like "Bill Clintorn" and people who were new who spelled it correctly would say "Hey, how did you get that one right??" 

 

 

Edited January 25, 2021 by Rat Luv

[Scylla Rhiadra]

6 minutes ago, Rat Luv said:

I remember the $2L trivia machine at Bear Infohub! The questions repeated, so I ended up knowing all these facts about baseball, which I've totally forgotten now...

Some of the machine answers had typos too, so you had to type things like "Bill Clintorn" and people who were new who spelled it correctly would say "Hey, how did you get that one right??" 

 

 

That sounds like exactly the same trivia engine. The one at Sunflower was "Gogomodo Trivia" I think? Or something like that?

[Rat Luv]

2 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

That sounds like exactly the same trivia engine. The one at Sunflower was "Gogomodo Trivia" I think? Or something like that?

I can't remember now...which is crazy as the machine would also shout out its name and a URL every five minutes, lol. 

[Polenth Yue]

On 1/21/2021 at 8:18 AM, Mollymews said:

am pretty sure that we can give cash rewards if the person plays a game. For example is a few places that have board games which pay out a weekly prize to the high score.  I won 10L for high score off a greedy table a few weeks ago

if this was not allowed then games like Linden Realms (which is in Search) would be one rule for Linden and another rule for residents, and I am not sure that is the case

They only banned gambling, not giving money to people. Gambling would mean money in (the player pays to play) and money out (there's a money prize), where random chance comes into it (even if it's not totally chance, like poker, it still has a chance element). They restricted "skill gaming", which is money in and money out, but the game is based on skill and not chance. It has to be a proper region set up for that one and there are various other hoops to jump through.

Other things are not restricted. You can have money in and random gift out (a typical gatcha). You can have nothing in and money out (free-to-play game with a money prize, money tree, random money givers). Basically, it's fine as long as money is only on one side (either in or out, but not both).

[Prokofy Neva]

On 1/18/2021 at 9:43 PM, Chic Aeon said:

I never heard that they were banned. There were still some (no money but trees and set up) the last I looked. Wolfhaven (?) was the last to have active trees I believe. They were also active in Inworldz several years ago.   I just checked and only found one place advertising money trees. There were none there that I could find and the place was vintage to say the least.

I can't see why they would be against the TOS. They are not gambling. They are actually gifts.  But of course you have to find a TREE unless you have and old one. That would actually be something nice to have back on the grid. Very hard for new folks to get any money theses days.  

 

Are there still camping chairs?  I know that there are camp for products chairs as I sat in one in December for a cute dress LOL. 

 

Hopefully someone more engaged in the process will chime in. 

 

EDIT:  Honestly that was one of the highlights of my coming into SL. That and the magic money ball at NCI.  I mean we had NOTHING back then. A few lindens was a thrill. 

Wolfhaven trees first got beset by bots exploiting a weakness in the trees; a fix was attempted for this but there was still the problem of people making numerous day-old accounts to draw them down -- finally they stopped working. There's another thing I have called a Wonder Wheel made by Oriolus Oliva which work by chance, you can put all prizes in them, or a mixture of prizes and money, and set them to force people to wait 15 minutes or whatever between tries. These aren't illegal to my knowledge, I have them in a few places, people don't work them as much because they don't have cash as much as the money trees did.

The camping chairs were banned, or at least, the fake traffic they generated was somehow taken away or factored out for those stores that used it so that their place in search lowered, and that pretty much ended them.