A skin store refuse to have demos?

[Lillith Hapmouche]

How exactly are you linking your time to shop around in a store to the time of trying on an item at home? 

I never bothered to check, but I suppose that those 5 minutes time limit are the preconfigured value in a certain timed demo script, which also features a pretty dumb grammatical error in its chat output. If you put limits on me, I expect you to put them flawlessly at the very least.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

4 hours ago, Marianne Little said:

Yes, the attitude is really off-putting.

Totally this.

Yeah, it's her own store, she can do what she wants, blah blah blah.

But I'd avoid the place on the basis of her attitude alone, frankly. I don't know whether I'd call her "elitist," exactly, but she clearly has zero respect for her customers.

I don't need to patronize someone like that, and wouldn't.

[LittleMe Jewell]

7 hours ago, Marianne Little said:

I will not name the store.

I was in (one of the large monthly events), and I noticed pretty skins. I decided to take a demo with me and try at home. As I usually do. I could not find a demo.

I thought it was an oversight. Some creators send demos in their group. I found the group, nothing. I even went to the mainstore. Imagine when I found no demos at all?? I open the creator's profile. It says on the front page:

 Please do NOT tell me how I should run my store, (redacted) doesn't offer demos so please do NOT ask me about offering demos, i will ignore you. I am just doing what works for me. I can do whatever I want...This is My store, My products, & My rules.

I am just perplexed. From the ads, this would be instant buy for one of my avatars unless something in the demo was wrong. Now I am asking you, would you buy based upon an ad alone? The creator can do what she want, but is this some elitist thinking? My products is so good that I don't need demos?

While I might buy some items without a demo if they are priced low enough, I don't think I'd do so with a skin.  IF - really big IF - I ever considered buying a skin without a demo because it was super-cheap (like some special promo item L$75 or less), I still wouldn't buy from this creator after reading the profile.  The attitude says that they flat do not give one iota about their customers.

 

Side note regarding demos:  Attached things are fine as long as it does not prevent me from actually seeing how the item looks - i.e. no huge thing around the mid-section that prevents me from truly seeing how a dress fits and looks as I move.  If an attached object will be around the mid-section, be sure it is not huge and/or at least partially transparent.   I can live with timers, but anything less that 15 minutes will probably frustrate me and ensure I never go back to the store.

[Nalates Urriah]

Demo Skin - Some people are keenly aware of how easy it is to steal skins or any texture. They try to protect their creation by limiting or omitting the demo. It doesn't work. Even writing demo all over the skin is just an annoying slow down to the thief.

AFAIK, there are no numbers on how lack of a demo affects sales. I believe it is significant because I VERY seldom buy things without trying a demo. But, I don't know. I also doubt there are any reliable numbers on how theft affects sales. My opinion is the sales lost to theft overall are significant but as a percent of sales probably not worth trying too hard to prevent.

I suspect the No Demo Skin Store is loosing more sales to the no demo policy than they would to theft. But, there is no way to prove that point to the store owner. He/she will have to live with their thinking. I doubt they will experiment to find the reality. So, we leave them to their imagined world and buy elsewhere. 

@Marianne Little I doubt the No-Demo thing is a trend. You just came across someone that lives in their bubble/echo chamber and from their Profile has obviously closed their mind and lost touch with reality. Seems we have a lot of those people in SL.

Timed Demos - I sort of understand the point of them. I don't like them. I often save demos and come back to them later. I can't do that with timed demos. Yes, the timer only runs when wearing the demo. But, I need a reasonable amount of time the SECOND time I try on the demo. I can live with 10-minutes. But, I will toss the demo after the first try on. They get no second chance from me. At 5-minutes I will likely not get to play with the demo as much as I would want, so I know it has less of a chance of my buying it.

I would much rather deal with the floating Demo-rings and signs.

[Beth Macbain]

The few times I've bought something that doesn't have a demo, I've regretted it. No way would I buy a skin without a demo, and like others said, I'd never buy anything from them period. Even if they started to offer demos now, I'd know that they are only doing it out of pressure and they feel great disdain for their customers. No way will I give lindens to someone who dislikes me based solely on the fact that I want to give them lindens before I ever give them any lindens. 

I don't mind timed demos, but 2 minutes is too short. And if it's a timed demo, I expect there to not be a huge ring around it obscuring my view of what it looks like. I expect it to be the full item that automatically detaches and goes poof after 5 or 10 minutes. I don't spend that much time trying on an item in RL much less SL so I think that's a fair amount of time. 

[DeepBlueJoy]

2 hours ago, Blush Bravin said:

I too will delete a demo that is set on a timer and then never bother checking out anything else from that creator.  I have no issue whatsoever with rings or signs around the body saying demo, but I like so many others want to demo the product with items I already own. I like to mix and match my wardrobe so a deal breaker for me is not being able to demo the item with a lot of the things I already own. I also am careful to be sure the item works well with my many dancing animations. Honestly, even 10 minutes would still be too short. 

I won't buy a skin without a demo unless it's less than 5L (usually a gag or a gift)

I don't tend to buy stuff with timed demos. 

I hate going to store, trying something on, and ending up nude.  Occasionally, I don't even realize the demo is timed until it starts undeforming.  If I'm there with a friend, I don't even realize what is happening b/c we're busy talking. Then magically, I'm naked!  Just NO! I have absolutely no shyness, but I do have dignity.  That 'noob wandering naked in a sim' thing is so not my idea of a good time.  Just dumb.  Particularly as some of the stores are not in adult regions.

I also hate demos (particularly of skin) that have huge 'demo' (sometimes as a textured pattern) written all over the surface, particularly on the face!  How can i judge texture and the way the light hits it, if i cannot see it all?  Some head company came with a cage around the demo.  DELETED with prejudice!  Another had bits missing from the head. And these heads are 5000L, not 10L

Really?  I'm supposed to visualize and edit myself to fit something with obstacles that make it difficult to see the item?  Or that expires? 

I'm not a thief. Don't treat me like one!

I am black, so this is something I've really got a very thin skin about. I've been followed around in stores all my adult life. It is insulting.  And I cannot imagine why anyone, anywhere, any race would not find it insulting.

Self-Deleting and otherwise constructing your demos as though I'm gonna steal your stuff is just OFFENSIVE.  I know there are idiots who will steal anything, but interestingly, those demos won't stop them, but they will annoy your customers.

Picture this, I've actually had demos that I tried on, wasn't sure about (or didn't have lindens for) and took off and left in my inventory for weeks (or longer) before going back and trying them again -- sometimes with different skin, hair or other clothing... and buying. 

• Expired demos get deleted the minute they expire, so they cease to be an advertisement of your product. 

Unless I was able to IMMEDIATELY decide i loved it like mad and had to have it NOW, I tend to walk out of the store and forget it (or tp home naked and pissed off!!!)  (and lose the SLURL) 

One thing is true: I often follow random slurls to stores... If I end up naked and leave, I may not have the LM at all, even if I want to go back. Yeah, usually, i can dig it out of history, but why bother?

If you want to send out demos that will sell:  Do three things at minimum:

1) Give a full demo. 

Include Omega or whatever other bells the real thing will have and have it show colors and such -- I don't want texture surprise later on, even if the item fits.  (I bought a dress the other day without trying on the demo b/c it looked lovely in the picture... then I discovered there were NO colors on the hud that I liked b/c instead of abstract patterns (i thought i saw in the picture), there were granny flowers). Fortunately, the dress was cheap.

2) Give me a demo i can see fully. 

I don't care if it has a squawking demo bird over my head or a 6 foot ring around my leg... just make it NOT cover ANY of the item in question (unless it's a full skin, and you're putting it around the ankle)  It is fine if it is over the head or otherwise annoyingly visible... as long as it blocks NOTHING i will value when using the actual product.  I am stupid and simple: I want to see what it will look like when I use it.  Goes double when something is over 500L!

If you send me a corset but not the flexi skirt, (one very expensive store did) I will not be able to tell how the gown works. I won't buy it.  A lot don't work at the waist.  When I get a partial demo, I tend to just delete and forget it.  I figure the person who made this has something to HIDE! Or they're just greedy, mean-spirited and miserly.

3) ALWAYS put contact info into the demo, the fuller, the better. 

If possible, more than just your slurl - if you have MP put that in too.  People move sims.  I have dug out demos after a YEAR when I remembered or rediscovered an item or they matched an event I was going to, then I've had a hard time to find the store... except for those who included a way to find them. I love people who put updated picks in their profiles or slurls. I can usually dig it off the item, but occasionally, people leave the template maker as creator in the item, so that doesn't work. MAKE IT EASY.

A notecard with maker name is therefore better than just a landmark.

 

No Nos in demo land:

• no demos in cages.
• no demos covered in demo writing so you cannot see the texture.
• no partially crippled demos. 
• no partial demos. 
• no expiring demos. 
• No non-existent demos for anything over 100L

Also... really don't like demos I must rez to the ground when I cannot rez in your store! Yes, I know there's a work around, but why make me work for it when there are so many other things to see and buy!

Or... If your store doesn't allow scripts... If I am gonna try on something with an applier, and I cannot use my HUD to unhide my body parts, I must leave yours store to try your demo... then you may have lost the sale. I know people rent on sims that don't allow certain things, but maybe it's time to boycott those really rigid landlords.

• Bottom line: If I must leave your store to try on your demo, I will probably not be coming back.

Old stuff from MP I forgive, and anyway, I am usually on my own land when trying, so it's fine.

Edited April 29, 2020 by DeepBlueJoy

[DeepBlueJoy]

6 hours ago, brodiac90 said:

It's not just skins but anything. If there is no demo then I don't buy. I only consider making an exception if the item is a rare niche item and there aren't any other alternatives. Price plays a part too. Sometimes you can just take a punt on something cheap but for something like a skin or body I'd want a demo. 

With my store I offer fully textured demos so people can see what the final product looks like but I also include a demo 'ring' that floats around your avi and a 2 min demo destroy script. 

Of course, they can choose to run their store however they want. 

 

 

Please lose the 2 minute demo.  I don't care how big the ring is or how colorful the demo note is, but in two minutes, sometimes i have barely looked at the item, maybe, my RL cat crawled on my lap, my BFF and I were busy talking and I was looking at her, not my outfit... OR... I'm waiting for the outfit to REZ.  So two minutes... is a really good way to annoy me.

[rmarie Beedit]

10 hours ago, Marianne Little said:

The creator can do what she want, but is this some elitist thinking? My products is so good that I don't need demos?

"Elitism is the belief or attitude that individuals who form an elite—a select group of people with an intrinsic quality, high intellect, wealth, special skills, or experience—are more likely to be constructive to society as a whole, and therefore deserve influence or authority greater than that of others."

It's a fine line. Since the creator is successful enough that her name isn't being shared in this thread, maybe her products are so popular that they speak for themselves. Personally, I prefer to be able to test a demo too, so I wouldn't fall into her customer demographic.

Edited April 29, 2020 by rmarie Beedit
tweaking

[Sassy Kenin]

They should offer a Paid Demo in my opinion..their creation, their choice & your choice to buy or not.

[Marianne Little]

4 minutes ago, rmarie Beedit said:

"Elitism is the belief or attitude that individuals who form an elite—a select group of people with an intrinsic quality, high intellect, wealth, special skills, or experience—are more likely to be constructive to society as a whole, and therefore deserve influence or authority greater than that of others."

It's a fine line. Since the creator is successful enough that her name isn't being shared in this thread, maybe her products are so popular that they speak for themselves. Personally, I prefer to be able to test a demo too, so I wouldn't fall into her customer demographic.

She is new to me and others. It is LL policy not to name and shame. These threads often end up in badmouthing. I do not want a warning in case this one ends up like that. The seller has only 1 one star review in her marketplace store, that I found after I posted here. Someone had bought a skin unseen and posted: "I thought I'd try the skin based on how realistic it looked and took a chance..." then went on listing up what she had found out when she tried it on.

 

[FairreLilette]

A skin can look so different from how I think it is going to look.  I just bought a BOM mesh skin last night.  I picked up about eight demos.  I was so glad I picked out that one demo because it really looked the absolute best on the shape I had and I was really happy with it but so it's random compared to the photographs by the creator that I never know how a skin is going to look.   So, to me, a demo is absolutely necessary.  

All I can think is perhaps she doesn't know how to write DEMO on the skin.  And, you're all thinking why wouldn't she know how to write demo on the skin if she made the skin?  Well, maybe she didn't make the skin...maybe it's user licensed from a full perm skin and there isn't a way to change the skin to her name with a root prim so therefore the creator does not even know how to write demo on the skin.  I'd just avoid.  

Edited April 29, 2020 by FairreLilette

[DeepBlueJoy]

13 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

A skin can look so different from how I think it is going to look.  I just bought a BOM mesh skin last night.  I picked up about eight demos.  I was so glad I picked out that one demo because it really looked the absolute best on the shape I had and I was really happy with it but so it's random compared to the photographs by the creator that I never know how a skin is going to look.   So, to me, a demo is absolutely necessary.  

All I can think is perhaps she doesn't know how to write DEMO on the skin.  And, you're all thinking why wouldn't she know how to write demo on the skin if she made the skin?  Well, maybe she didn't make the skin...maybe it's user licensed from a full perm skin and there isn't a way to change the skin to her name with a root prim so therefore the creator does not even know how to write demo on the skin.  I'd just avoid.  

Things look different from avi to avi.  This is true particularly for those skin makers (and also make up creators) who design with a particular head in mind, then throw in omega and/or BOM.  Some skins and some make up is designed so it will look good on almost any head, some look good only on one or two specific heads.  Also influential is how you've shaped your particular head.  I see pictures that may or may not be retouched, but look fabulous... if you want to wear the exact shape the maker created.  Well, most of us want our own look...

Demos are therefore required for me for things like skin and make up, even more than clothing.   

I may wear a dress or top one or two times...(and come up with a work-around fit for it.) Skin, i tend to wear for extended periods.  If it isn't fantasy skin, I wear it daily until the next time I upgrade. Skin either looks right or it doesn't.  I may need to adjust shape to some degree, but the sliders must be able to give me something I like... and I can't tell that if I have no demo or I only have 10 minutes to work with.

As for a demographic that can afford not to demo?  I do have money.  The reason is that I don't waste it. I'm generous to vendors who treat me right, and scorch the earth of those who treat me with disrespect. 

If you go to a store that caters to the wealthy, you'll notice most of them have more generous return policies and tend to be much more flexible and helpful than average.   Satisfaction of the wealthy customer is more important, not less.  There are fewer wealthy clients, and losing even one tends to be costly.  Also, wealthy clients have greater capacity to share their experience with similarly powerful friends.  They also tend to be people who set or influence trends. 

Thus, the vendor in SL who thinks she/he is too important to care about the customer may well go out of business if they build up enough bad blood. We may not be naming names here, but we can and will in world. In SL EVERY good experience can end up being a recommendation to a friend or group.

[Maryanne Solo]

8 hours ago, brodiac90 said:

So I understand this correctly, you want to be able to get a demo and then be able to go out and about in it, and possibly even take pictures which you could use for your Flickr or potentially a blog. As well as this you want a demo which has no obvious signs it is a demo and you want to do all this for free?

 How incredibly and absolutely LUDICROUS.

You already stated your products have a "DEMO RING"
I need say no more except -> 😝😝😝😝😝

The ability to comment expires in 2 minutes. If you haven't replied by then BAD LUCK.
Do you like being treated like an IDJIT, a thief. a vile scumbag too?  

Edited April 29, 2020 by Maryanne Solo

[Stephanie Misfit]

I can't believe anyone would even attempt to sell a skin without a demo and that they could get into a major event using this practice. I would buy anything else without demoing it before I would buy a skin. I've been trying a lot of BoM skins lately and cannot believe how different from the picture a lot of them look on my my avatar, even though they may not neccessarily be bad skins. Then of course, there are the skins with the morphed ads, and the just plain bad skins.

[Robin Kiyori]

This is part of why "my product my rules no ifs and buts" is a  a very thin line between acceptable and reasonable and utter moon logic.

Yes one should take measures to ensure their  hard work isn't balently stolen. That's just reasonable considering the hours of labour that went  into them. However if you're not giving  your customers  any chance to truly inspect the item at all.   and act like an ***** about it it?  Uuuh.. maybe take an online class on Retail and business practises before trying to make money via selling gods to the public. maybe? Just a thought from your friendly neighbourhood sales assistant.

Good effective Demos are a must when it comes to Second life. Especially these days where there's allot  of  competition and  false advertising. People like the one in OP's  example are only hurting themselves by not just having a demo. But actively behaving in an  aggressive manner about it. The Customer has limited funds and there's allot of other skin makers out there, With demos!

[DeepBlueJoy]

8 minutes ago, AylinVali said:

This is part of why "my product my rules no ifs and buts" is a  a very thin line between acceptable and reasonable and utter moon logic.

Yes one should take measures to ensure their  hard work isn't balently stolen. That's just reasonable considering the hours of labour that went  into them. However if you're not giving  your customers  any chance to truly inspect the item at all.   and act like an ***** about it it?  Uuuh.. maybe take an online class on Retail and business practises before trying to make money via selling gods to the public. maybe? Just a thought from your friendly neighbourhood sales assistant.

Good effective Demos are a must when it comes to Second life. Especially these days where there's allot  of  competition and  false advertising. People like the one in OP's  example are only hurting themselves by not just having a demo. But actively behaving in an  aggressive manner about it. The Customer has limited funds and there's allot of other skin makers out there, With demos!

And there are even stores like LAQ that give away a single skin in all shades just for a free join...  and periodic other gifts. And they aren't alone. And they aren't crappy skins...  What fabulousness does this seller's skin have that people should just 'trust you' that it will look good on them?  My experience in the real world is that there's not a single item in the world that looks good on everyone... even if it is gorgeous intrinsically.  Humans are different.  What suits is also going to be different.  Add the way stuff like faces are rigged in SL?  Demo!!

[Bitsy Buccaneer]

/am realising i have just enough mental popcorn to want to know who the person doing this is and nowhere near enough to do anything about it

[LittleMe Jewell]

I'm assuming that the creator is actually making sales and just does not realize how many sales the 'no demo' is likely costing them.  Maybe they figure their low sales volume is just because they are new and still breaking into the market.

[Sassy Kenin]

[DeepBlueJoy]

9 hours ago, brodiac90 said:

So I understand this correctly, you want to be able to get a demo and then be able to go out and about in it, and possibly even take pictures which you could use for your Flickr or potentially a blog. As well as this you want a demo which has no obvious signs it is a demo and you want to do all this for free? 

 

 

Yes, of course, I take pictures of my various demos.  I'm not stealing 'your' property!!! They have demo rings.  I can't DO anything with them besides test drive... I want to see how each of them looks on me... it's clear from the ring around my foot, or D over my head that it is a demo, the point is not to USE or abuse the demo process.  The point is to get a way of comparing something expensive like a skin or a body.  When i went from system to mesh, I tried on maybe a dozen different bodies.  One night I demo'd all of them for my friend, took pictures of each, then next day went back and took a look... And the next day I spent nearly 3000 linden.  Of course it is reasonable for me to be able to SEE clearly what i'm buying.  I still have those pics btw... I am occasionally frustrated by my body, but given what i see in those pics, would make the same choice again, given those options. 

Next time I body shop, I will probably do something similar, though now, I have something I like, I must get something I like better...   I'm in no hurry.

None of us would demo half a car (though some car vendors actually allow you a week to change your mind on a purchase), or look at a house with no roof or floor.  We want to look at a fair representation of what we will use.  We don't expect to live there... but we expect a REAL and COMPLETE picture -- literally even.  As a professional photographer, I find it's often easier to see flaws when you have created an image or several images than just looking at your constantly moving avi.  When i tried to photo the caged, head, it was impossible.. and so I kept my 2000 or 4000L

[Maitimo]

2 hours ago, AylinVali said:

This is part of why "my product my rules no ifs and buts" is a  a very thin line between acceptable and reasonable and utter moon logic.

Yes one should take measures to ensure their  hard work isn't balently stolen.

I'm wondering if the seller has stolen it from someone else and doesn't want to release demos in case she's discovered.

I would only buy a skin without a demo if it was around L$100 or less; sadly most of the skins in that price range are stolen.

[Robin Kiyori]

1 hour ago, Maitimo said:

I'm wondering if the seller has stolen it from someone else and doesn't want to release demos in case she's discovered.

I would only buy a skin without a demo if it was around L$100 or less; sadly most of the skins in that price range are stolen.

That's.. a big possibility. grabs the thinking cap.

[DeepBlueJoy]

12 hours ago, brodiac90 said:

Would a longer demo time, say 10 minutes, be more acceptable, or is it the principle itself? 

Just put the big signs all over it so everyone knows we're wearing a demo.  This is my number one choice.

I don't care if any tester pictures I take have demo signs, they are documentary images, not art.  If you must write demo onto the item itself, let it not obscure the use of the item or the ability to visualize the texture realistically.  LAQ skins have a demo sign on the forehead, but most of the skin itself is visible. You can see how it falls all over the face, though the demo sign is a bit distracting.  On the other hand, i see skin demos with lines and/or text repeated over the entire surface... and I cannot tell how shiny the skin is or how it really looks on the contours of the face b/c it looks distorted. 

If it's a piece of clothing, it's less problematic for it to be timed, b/c as long as it is a long enough demo for me to have it (a) rez completely AND (b) put on a matching top/accessories, shoes etc and see if they don't poke thru somewhere odd... but again, I can tell you the sense of pressure and the fact that I OFTEN don't buy items on the first try, means you won't get a second chance from me unless I'm already a regular, ENTHUSIASTIC customer. 

My question is why are you working so hard to irritate your customer? Generosity is remembered in SL, but so is inconvenience.  

I have given up groups because the landing point is far from the store and there's no way to tp there easily.  I come to SL to feel BETTER not to be aggravated.  That is the majority of people in SL.  The rest come to be creative or to have a social life or some combination of all three.  None of these will be motivated by vendors who waste our time, effort and energy.

Remember: WE ARE TRYING TO GIVE YOU MONEY!!!  Don't make it harder.

The other day I gave a vendor 100L after she helped me when I had trouble with a 29L dress even though it wasn't her fault.  She took time.  She always helps people and people talk about it.  I notice. I remember. I go back.  It is not a lot of money, but I bet a lot of people have that impulse where she's concerned.  I would buy her stuff for a lot more money too b/c it's well made.

 

[Marianne Little]

7 hours ago, Maitimo said:

I'm wondering if the seller has stolen it from someone else and doesn't want to release demos in case she's discovered.

I would only buy a skin without a demo if it was around L$100 or less; sadly most of the skins in that price range are stolen.

I thought about it, but I read a lot in Seraphim, different sales and events, and often browse the Marketplace. I could not say that I recognized some. Stolen skins often come in one tone only, and a wildly different style, different ads, they look like garage sales tossed together. Her poster looked totally mouthwatering. I was so ready to give her money, that I:

A : Joined her group to look for demos. It was no gifts involved, so I had no other reason to join.

B : Got the landmark, and went to her Mainstore from the event, to look for demos.

C : Opened her profile to contact her.

I only put in this much work when I am exited and think a product is worth some legwork. I was very ready to drop 1 k linden.

So there you have one with enough taste to set up a store, and make attractive ads. I read in Seraphim, and went to (event) to get demos for 2 things: Kitten heeled sandals and her skins. (Edit: I bought the sandals for me and one alt. I may buy them for a third too. Demos pay off.)

 

Edited April 30, 2020 by Marianne Little

[Mollymews]

19 hours ago, brodiac90 said:

If I am unknowingly losing sales I may just get rid of the timed demos and keep the floating demo rings. 

i don't like demo rings that obscure my view of the thing I am wearing and trying to decide if I am going to buy it. Stick the linked demo part above my head please, I want to see the whole thing please, not be trying to imagine what it might look like without the rings covering it up

i get the idea behind timed demos when the thing is full object with no demo words on the textures and no linked demo part. Which sounds cool from the seller's pov, but is a pita from the buyers pov.  We run out of time

The timed ones I really give up on are those which say 10 minutes and come with a HUD with a swatch of texture changes.  I can't get thru the swatches in 10 minutes. It takes me at least 10 minutes just to look at a single texture from all the angles while playing animations to see how the garment fits under stress. Nevermind, trying on different hair, makeup, shoes, etc to see what I have which might go with the demo

if I run out of time doing this then delete that demo, and get something else from another shop