Making SL more welcoming to males

[Beth Macbain]

3 minutes ago, Tari Landar said:

But it's preposterous to even THINK that any male who says "hi" wants in your pants.

It’s all a part of life, isn’t it? We see someone that interests us for one reason or another, we say “hi” and go from there. Sometimes it doesn’t go beyond that, sometimes it’s a fun conversation with a stranger on a bus you never see again, sometimes they become an awesome friend, and sometimes they end up becoming the love of your life.

Everything starts with saying hello. It’s literally a greeting - the way to greet another human.

I don’t think it’s fair for me to assume every man who says hello to me wants to bang me, but I do take it as a compliment that there was something about me that made them take the opportunity to say hi.

And, yes, I do IM men first a lot of the time. Sometimes I start by just saying hello, sometimes it’s something more. I wouldn’t be with my fella now if I hadn’t relentlessly pursued him because he was not interested in romance with me. 

Hello is innocent. It’s the next line that’s dangerous.

[Tari Landar]

Just now, Beth Macbain said:

It’s all a part of life, isn’t it? We see someone that interests us for one reason or another, we say “hi” and go from there. Sometimes it doesn’t go beyond that, sometimes it’s a fun conversation with a stranger on a bus you never see again, sometimes they become an awesome friend, and sometimes they end up becoming the love of your life.

Everything starts with saying hello. It’s literally a greeting - the way to greet another human.

I don’t think it’s fair for me to assume every man who says hello to me wants to bang me, but I do take it as a compliment that there was something about me that made them take the opportunity to say hi.

And, yes, I do IM men first a lot of the time. Sometimes I start by just saying hello, sometimes it’s something more. I wouldn’t be with my fella now if I hadn’t relentlessly pursued him because he was not interested in romance with me. 

Hello is innocent. It’s the next line that’s dangerous.

You said it better than I did, lol.

I get being..cautious, with conversations with people, and curious as to the intention. I really do get that.

It's just..those automatic assumptions right out the gate..so harmful. 

[Seicher Rae]

2 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I'm not sure if that's what he meant or not, but yeah. The accusation of "alt" is a pretty standard one. When I first appeared on the forums in whatever year it was, I was accused of being an alt, or having alts, or something similar, I don't really remember.

It's kind of a handy way of not having to deal with the actual content of a post.

The idea that you are my alt is rather amusing, though. 🙂

Not to kick it too hard, but the start of the horrible stuff with that old Forum (and more) was with cries of ALT! That lead to the whole six+ years of it...

[Scylla Rhiadra]

5 minutes ago, Tari Landar said:

Why are we okay with some suggesting that all men who say hello want a ride on the magic carpet?

Who has said this? I certainly haven't. Has someone else, and I missed it?

6 minutes ago, Tari Landar said:

Why are we okay with men being denigrated at all?

Again, Tari, who is okay with this?

7 minutes ago, Tari Landar said:

All people in sl deserve to be treated with respect until or unless they, specifically, have given you reason not to.

Agreed. Totally.

[Beth Macbain]

7 minutes ago, Tari Landar said:

Women are most definitely not treated as poorly in sl as they often are in rl. 

Do you think maybe that’s part of it? SL is a safe place for women to stand up for themselves because we do outnumber the men and if it gets to be too much, we can literally shut it down by closing SL?

[Scylla Rhiadra]

27 minutes ago, Seicher Rae said:

Not to kick it too hard, but the start of the horrible stuff with that old Forum (and more) was with cries of ALT! That lead to the whole six+ years of it...

Oh, I remember. Not a very edifying chapter in the SL forum's history. In fact, that whole period was almost best forgotten (and very little of it, I note, has been archived here).

Edited November 18, 2019 by Scylla Rhiadra
EDIFYING. That's the word I was searching for!

[Tari Landar]

I'm going to try this multi-quote thing..'cuz hubby says I have to do my homework , eat dinner and stop being a hyperventilating hyena....sigh, he so gets me ❤️

2 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Who has said this? I certainly haven't. Has someone else, and I missed it

Yes, read back in the thread, you missed it, and it's actually said quite frequently "in my experience when a guy starts a conversation with hi", and other such variations of the phrase. Some people are seriously under the impression/belief that any guy who says "hi" is looking for sex. That's not my interpretation...those are words people put out here (in this thread and many others, and inworld). 

12 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Again, Tari, who is okay with this?

Apparently the people that do the above. But I see it inworld as well, all the time. 

11 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

Do you think maybe that’s part of it? SL is a safe place for women to stand up for themselves because we do outnumber the men and if it gets to be too much, we can literally shut it down by closing SL?

Yeah I do think it has something to do with it. We DO have the numbers behind us, so, it might be a more comfortable position for some females to "have more fight"(I'm sorry I don't know how to better word that right now, lol) in them about things they might not have in rl. Some people, regardless of gender, can be more confrontational when there is a level of anonymity available too, and I KNOW that contributes to some of it.

I'm not particularly fond of it though, really. Even if I realize that in rl we have so very far to still go as a species, and individual genders. I hate to see online venues/versions go the exact opposite direction. I don't think it helps either world to be so, almost polar opposite really. It's...odd. Sl leaning more towards denigrating men(on a social front) doesn't stop rl being more denigrating to women (on a social front), it just conflates existing issues. 

Okay, okay, I need to eat dinner lmao.  I shall return.

Keep it classy my forumites, and leave me lots to read later

 

[Seicher Rae]

Tari Landar said: Keep it classy my forumites, and leave me lots to read later 

There was a better one but it wouldn't make it by the monitors...

 

Edited November 18, 2019 by Seicher Rae

[Beth Macbain]

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 hour ago, Tari Landar said:

Yes, read back in the thread, you missed it, and it's actually said quite frequently "in my experience when a guy starts a conversation with hi", and other such variations of the phrase. Some people are seriously under the impression/belief that any guy who says "hi" is looking for sex. That's not my interpretation...those are words people put out here (in this thread and many others, and inworld).

I think I must have skimmed over that part, but i suppose it's something we've heard before.

I'm not about to tell people that they have falsified, or are wrong about their experience. But I can affirm that it is not my experience. I do get my share of one-word IMs that, as usually quickly becomes evident, are about sex, but I get some that aren't, and I certainly don't assume that everyone who contacts me is hungering for my hawt little mesh bod.

I think, in any case, that it's always dangerous to generalize from the limits of one's own experience to a broader assertion about a culture.

1 hour ago, Tari Landar said:

Apparently the people that do the above. But I see it inworld as well, all the time. 

I think women are as capable of being as judgemental, obnoxious, and unfair, as anyone else. I don't know that merely assuming that someone who IMs you wants sex is in and of itself unfair, but treating everyone who does contact you harshly because you think so certainly is.

Again, respect, right? That means, among other things, not prejudging.

Edited November 18, 2019 by Scylla Rhiadra

[Madelaine McMasters]

54 minutes ago, Tari Landar said:

Why aren't women fighting for these same "rights" for men in sl? Why are we okay with some suggesting that all men who say hello want a ride on the magic carpet? Why are we okay with men being denigrated at all?

I don't pay particularly close attention to my own participation here, but I don't think I've been okay with these things. I'm an analytical observer. When temperatures rise, it becomes difficult to get good readings and even more difficult to offer input without potentially destabilizing the system and injuring myself. So, my contributions have been oblique, generally calling on my personal experience. I've also observed that the world we experience, to some extent, is reflective of our participation in it.

If women here have had overwhelmingly negative experiences with male advances, I'm in no position to tell them they're wrong. I am only in a position to offer my overwhelmingly positive experience with fellas as a counterpoint.

Edited November 18, 2019 by Madelaine McMasters
Fewer words, same idea.

[Beth Macbain]

27 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

When temperatures rise, it becomes difficult to get good readings

I thought you liked it when the temp gets hot as hell...

[Blaise Glendevon]

10 hours ago, Alwin Alcott said:

7 pages... and surprising like RL .. nearly all women who think to know what's good for "us " 

I don't actually care what's good for you. What's good for me is not being subject to unwanted intrusions.

[Erwin Solo]

On 11/16/2019 at 8:38 PM, Erwin Solo said:

My impression is that all genders, by and large, go out of their way to make SL more welcoming to males. SL is profoundly welcoming to males, in my experience.

As previously stated, I think SL is very welcoming to males.  The web-based "People Forums" are a unique exception.   

Edited November 18, 2019 by Erwin Solo

[Madelaine McMasters]

34 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

I thought you liked it when the temp gets hot as hell...

...digs in her purse for a plasma torch, but is so flustered she settles for a PEZ dispenser, which she throws at you.

[Lindal Kidd]

2 hours ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

.. I am only in a position to offer my overwhelmingly positive experience with fellas as a counterpoint.

Oh sure.  Just because they're flammable, you're all happy with 'em.

Anyway, in a futile attempt to drag the thread back on topic:

How to make SL more interesting to males -- serve it with bacon.

[Madelaine McMasters]

18 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

2 hours ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

.. I am only in a position to offer my overwhelmingly positive experience with fellas as a counterpoint.

Oh sure.  Just because they're flammable, you're all happy with 'em.

On average, they're more massive than us, and so burn brighter and longer. What's not to like about that?

Edited November 18, 2019 by Madelaine McMasters

[Beth Macbain]

I sometimes wonder if the mods get to work on Monday mornings, open the forums, see a topic that had like 10 responses on Friday when they left work that now has hundreds of responses, and just think, “Damn it...”

Sorry, guys. 😬

[Scylla Rhiadra]

27 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

I sometimes wonder if the mods get to work on Monday mornings, open the forums, see a topic that had like 10 responses on Friday when they left work that now has hundreds of responses, and just think, “Damn it...”

Sorry, guys. 😬

Yeah. I know there are going to be people who doubt this, but I actually hate this kind of thing. I'm genuinely distressed when a thread like the "chat/IM" one, that I thought was going to be harmless, if interesting, turns into a flame fest. I don't like belligerent arguments.

And I don't think it looks good on us, as a community.

But I'm not sure what to do . . . pass over offensive things in silence? Put the people who post them on "ignore" so that we can maintain the illusion of a nice, quiet little place where everyone just gets along? After all, if I can't see it, it's not really offensive or insulting . . . right?

And, of course, most of this will be gone by tomorrow afternoon, with a reminder that it's important to maintain "civility" and "respectful language" here.

A tad ironic, no?

[Love Zhaoying]

9 hours ago, Beth Macbain said:

This appears to be a generalization.

[Maitimo]

I'm kind of surprised that this thread hasn't been locked yet.  Far too much here for me to respond to all of what I wanted to respond to (I tried to do some before I went to bed last night but my internet went down).  But I do still have a few comments (and sorry @Tari Landar, most of them are comments on what you said..)

10 hours ago, Persephone Emerald said:

Yes. We can make sweeping generalities about gender, but how will doing do make SL more appealing to male players? 

Maybe instead of generalizing about the other gender, we can have more people (in this case men) posting about what they want from SL?

I am probably not the best kind of man to ask, as I am in no way typical of the average male demographic. But here's a few things that would make me very happy;

* More variety of menswear. There is tons of formalwear, there's tons of very casual grubby tanks/ripped jeans, but there is very little inbetween. The sort of clothes I would wear to work, or going down to the pub with my mates.  Quality has already been mentioned, in the sense that a lot of menswear is, in comparison with womenswear, much better quality and much more expensive. I'd maybe like to see more in the tier below that; stuff that's a bit cheaper, sacrificing some of the quality in order to make it more affordable, but not dropping as far as "freebie" quality. More fantasy/costume choices for men. And no more t-shirts. Please god, no more graphic t-shirts.

* More roleplay, of the strictly non-sexual, storytelling type. Except, NOT para-RP, and NOT the sort that relies on huds and scripted combat systems. It takes me longer than average to type a long paragraph of text with one hand and using huds at speed is also much more difficult. 

* More heavy rock/metal clubs. There ARE a few very popular rock clubs but many of the popular ones play a variety of music that isn't all rock. I'd like to see a few more that are strictly heavy-rock and heavy-metal-focussed, and are primarily English-speaking. There are quite a few clubs like this that are German-speaking, but my reason for going to clubs is at least 51% to chat and make friends, and I can't do that if I don't understand or speak their language.

* Vehicles that are easier to drive. I would love to have a really nice motorbike in SL but controlling one without spinning off the road into someone's back yard is nearly impossible.

 

10 hours ago, Tari Landar said:

Men are most definitely not the trophy holders on "just here for the sexors"...

I am pretty certain you're right - most men aren't here for sex at all. But I wonder if those men are even IMing women at all on a regular basis? I don't remember the last time I IM'd a woman (or a man) I didn't already know just to say hi. Probably it was several weeks ago. Whereas the guys that ARE looking for free sex are IMing hundreds of women a day.

I NEVER get these IM's from men when I'm wearing a masculine avatar (unless I'm in a gay club). And when I'm dressed femme, they ALWAYS either curse me or block me when I tell them I'm really a guy. If even 1% of these IMs came from a man who didn't want sex, then 1% of those conversations would have ended differently. And the contacts from guys who don't want sex? They always start differently.

So it's really no wonder that when a "Hi, how r u" comes in, you just know what's going to happen next.

10 hours ago, Tari Landar said:

Yeah, let's not pretend there aren't women (female avs, again) in sl that are out looking to hit on every male av they can find-especially when those male avs are visually appealing to them. Or looking to take someone home, or dancing, escorting, etc.. for money (again, not a knock, I really don't judge, honestly...I really do take a you do you approach,I've done the stripping thing in sl myself, lol). Women start just as many idiotic conversations with "hi", "hru", "hot av"... and the intentions of at some point getting that dude to whip out his dangly for them...even if it's just in an employment capacity. 

But there's a big difference between a man making an unsolicited approach to a woman, and a woman making one to a man.

Men very rarely feel threatened, intimidated or afraid of being approached by a woman.

I have never had cause to be concerned if a woman is walking behind me on a dark street at night. If a woman I don't know approaches me, I have never been worried that she might try to hurt me. I have never been nervous about accepting a ride from a woman I don't know, and getting into her car. I have never been afraid that a woman might try to physically overpower me or assault me. I have never been worried that a woman might try to grope me on a crowded train. (And even if she did, I would interpret it as more of a compliment than a threat).

But women have to be aware of these things all the time. And I am sure that those fears might cross over into SL. If you don't feel able to trust men in RL, and then you come into SL and the men you encounter behave in exactly the same way, why should you trust them either?

 

9 hours ago, Tari Landar said:

"Honey...none of us are that good, I can assure you. No matter how confident you are in yourself...there isn't a single person anywhere on this planet that is going to appeal to all of the opposite gender on such a grand scale. NO ONE is that good"

Of course not. No-one's that good. But some people are that desperate. 

 

9 hours ago, Tari Landar said:

Just a jumping off point (and I do actually agree with you)

Why aren't women fighting for these same "rights" for men in sl? Why are we okay with some suggesting that all men who say hello want a ride on the magic carpet? Why are we okay with men being denigrated at all?

You can literally turn everything you've said around on females, and it's actually the norm many males experience, but we;'re cool with that, right? All because some men think with their sausages and that's not ok..but women thinking with their burgers is perfectly fine? 

There is a HUGE double standard in sl...huge.

I do agree that women shouldn't be denigrated, but I also agree that men shouldn't. Men, by far and large are treated FAR worse in sl than women are, by all genders, really, lol. Women are most definitely not treated as poorly in sl as they often are in rl. 

All people in sl deserve to be treated with respect until or unless they, specifically, have given you reason not to. If your approach in life is that all must first earn your respect, then I suggest treating all disrespectfully until they give you reason to respect them. Either way, it's an even slate to start with, right? (or, it should be)

ABSOLUTELY THIS

None of these conversations should be talking about "men" and "women" at all. We are talking about "people" here. If a person treats all people with equal respect, then naturally they will be treating women with the same respect that they treat men. 

Unfortunately it's not an even slate to start with, and the reason why women aren't fighting for men to have the same rights, is because men have already had them, for at least centuries, and probably millennia. Why should men expect women to fight for us, when we've (collectively, as a gender throughout history) treated them so badly since the dawn of human civilization? 

That doesn't mean that women have the right to abuse men to "make up for it". It's time to draw a line in the ledger, write off the past and for everyone to treat all others with respect, regardless of their gender (or sexuality, or race, or disability, or religion). Respect should be given based on merit and behaviour, nothing else.

The one thing I disagree with in what you said here is that men in SL are treated worse than women. I don't think this is true. I think that men in SL are, for the most part, mostly ignored. We may get much less positive attention but we get much less negative attention too.

 

6 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said:

How to make SL more interesting to males -- serve it with bacon.

This male vegetarian says No to bacon. But I'll accept beer in lieu.

[Caroline Takeda]

On 11/15/2019 at 3:36 PM, Lureo said:

"'' Mande seus problemas à merda e suas doenças irão com eles... '' (Adriαηø Vєrαs)''

Send your problems to hell and your diseases go with them.

Ain't that difficult.

[MayaSmit]

Wow, my experiences playing as a male avatar (granted this was a few years ago) was very different! I managed to find lots of clothes on marketplace and in-world at stores and events (The Male Dept etc) and put together a good looking avatar. There were always new hairstyles and skins coming out to try out and buy. 

Whenever I went to public sims, such as clubs or beaches, I would often strike up a conversation with female avatars, and they would respond and chat to me as normal. I made quite a few friends that way. 

For any guys struggling to engage in SL, I would suggest two things:

1) Make a bit of an effort with your avatar. Sorry if this sounds superficial, but there are reasons why this is important. Showing up with a basic bad-looking avatar gives the impression that you're not that invested in the game and that you're not that bothered, and perhaps even likely to vanish once you've succeeded/failed in getting cybersex. So sadly, many people just won't respond. Many residents also love to help out noobies and give them advice on decent stores, discounts, sales, events and stuff! It's a fun project. So don't be afraid to ask for help.   

2) When you start up a conversation, say something interesting that can prompt a discussion. I won't IM a stranger because I necessarily want to bump pixels, but because something about the way they look or something they said was interesting, and I want to get to know them better. That's how to meet people and make friends, which can also sometimes lead to something more serious. Ask an interesting question! Or say something observational about the avatar or the sim! 

To put it in RL perspectives. Who do you think would be likely to receive a better reaction? The cool looking guy who engages you in fun interesting conversation, or the strange looking guy who mumbles "hi". SL is no different. 

I'm far too nice to ignore someone just because they have a poor avatar or bad conversational skills, but I'm a lot more interested in fellow residents who look like they're here for the long haul, have spent some time and put some effort into their appearance, and know how to hold a conversation. 

Edited November 18, 2019 by MayaSmit

[Ajay McDowwll]

Regarding clothing for men, I've had some really good luck shopping for my husband.  He's about as far from "edgy" as they get, dress-wise, and has one outfit he normally wears.

One.  One outfit that's not even made to work with his Signature Gianni body, so it understandably drives him crazy.

I went on Marketplace last night and searched for types of clothes he's said he wants that were made for his body, in order to lessen his frustration (jeans, t-shirts, jorts, kilts), and gifted him a few items.  I expect to see him looking like his RL self as soon as he goes inworld and tries on the clothes.

So, like, probably February 2020 😛

[Orwar]

   I haven't really kept up with this thread, I've peeked in a few times to offer my perspective, but it feels as if there has been too much bickering.

   More variety in apparel would probably be greatly appreciated by the existing members, and make it more likely that there is something that appeals to potential newcomers. It's not an issue of there being a too small amount of apparel, but if you've looked at the events for men's clothing it's been much of the same, to the point that you often find the same mesh models recycled with different textures from one booth to the next; we don't need more suits, we don't need more shorts, we don't need more tank tops or T-shirts - and that creators drop out of the events because their stuff doesn't sell well enough that it's worth the effort, well, that's because the market for those things has already been so excessively saturated. I already have enough suits that I could wear a different one every day of the week, and I'm not interested in having any more T-shirts, tank tops or board shorts.

   But I think that perhaps the most pressing issue is evident within this very thread; the attitude against men in SL, the prejudice about how we only want 'one thing', and how we only have 'one intention', and how we 'don't deserve' any 'special treatment'.

   When you come into SL, you're hit with a pretty steep learning curve, and an often superficial community. If you're in luck, someone will grab you by the arm and show you where to get decked out with some clothes, a body or a head. If you're not so lucky, you may just be blatantly ignored because you look like a potato, or even worse, scolded for it.

   I didn't always care about my avatar's appearance, I don't know whether that had anything to do with being a man or not; I didn't come here for fashion, but for socialisation and to explore my own creativity, and to see whether I might find any interesting roleplay to partake in. I was very slow to jump on the mesh train, because I didn't at all get the point of it. When I finally did, and sat down to actually put some effort into my avatar's appearance, I immediately noticed a very significant change in how others, especially women, acted towards me. Again, when I picked up interest in photography I noticed the next stage of this; I mentioned 'photographer' on my profile, and briefly had a 'photographer' tag over my head, that I eventually got rid of because of how, wherever I went, there were women coming at me. I wasn't even a half-decent photographer yet, but the superficial fantasies of a majority of women in Second Life, and the difference in attitude I was met with, was very telling to me.