Making SL more welcoming to males

[Madelaine McMasters]

Just now, Love Zhaoying said:

awkward construction

That's Pennsylvania Dutch, like "Throw your father down the stairs his hat."

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

That's Pennsylvania Dutch, like "Throw your father down the stairs his hat."

Oops, I threw dad down the stairs before I read "his hat".

[Seicher Rae]

2 hours ago, Syo Emerald said:

I'm not bored enough to read up what has happened in the last 5,6 pages since I last checked in on this thread. Sooo...

- have we gotten an answer to why SL should, artificially, be made more appealing to a male audiance, when its base concept is a sandbox of (almost) endless freedom and self-expression?

- have we reached the boiling point yet and unmasked women as evil and at fault for whatever?

 

1. A bit. A few good souls have stepped up and offered constructive input from their sides of the Make SL Male Again issue.

2. Oh sure. Ages ago. Still at a nice roiling boil and that pot will never go dry.

 

[Janet Voxel]

31 minutes ago, Seicher Rae said:

1. A bit. A few good souls have stepped up and offered constructive input from their sides of the Make SL Male Again issue.

MSMA?

[Amina Sopwith]

1 hour ago, Conall DeCuir said:

Oh, i know not all women agree with each other. It's a snakepit!

No, it's discussion and discourse, like men do every day. What are you so scared of?

[Seicher Rae]

I'll have to ask the bff if there is a term for the amount of time it takes an OP to go from zero to nuclear. There actually is some kind of term for when a new PG game comes out to when it is modded for sexual parts (and I think it is measured in nanoseconds). Anyway... Kudos for not going Godwin (that I noticed anyway). I wonder how fast a topic of "World Peace" would go to the killing zone? 

Context is everything, or at least a lot. So if you are blocking quite a bit of the thread you are going to be losing context, but then again, I think people know that and don't really care. What's context and facts when having a good internet tussle? 

Context is important with MM's setting people on fire. Personally, I don't get it either, but :::shrugs::: If that was my first interaction with someone I'd be trying to get to the other side of the virtual street a.s.a.p. 

"Feminist" is an uncomfortable word for me. It probably shouldn't be, but it is. "They" kind of lost me when it got to the point of silly, with the overly politically correct stuff, like when Sacramento's big issue was renaming manhole covers to personhole covers. There was a lot of that going on for a while. I also ran into the man-haters who swore they were the true carriers of the term feminism. Then there was the group that looked down their collective noses if a woman chose a traditional route of staying at home rather than going out there with a different kind of occupation. On the other hand, I fully support equal pay, equal rights, equal health care, equal laws, the right to choose...  I tend to like how men "are" in the world, more than I do women, but I have also been raped, so there's that.

The things I'm reading that the guys want (the guys that are actually on topic for the OP) I think appeal to women too. So again, I don't agree with the premise of the OP, I think it is a matter of how best to market SL to show its variety. That and someone coming up with a way to make interesting RP areas that stay around. As to making an area strictly for men (avatars), that can easily be done I would think. A sim owner can do what they please, admit who they please. There are femmedom areas after all. If there aren't men-only areas already I would think that would be a pretty good indication that there is no demand.

I need coffee. IV coffee...

[Amina Sopwith]

3 hours ago, Lewis Luminos said:

The feminist movement has, I think, caused as much harm to the cause of women as it has helped. In the early years of course, it was crucial. It gave women the right to own property, to vote, to work in the same industries as men for the same pay.  But in recent years it's become a very loaded word that no longer means "equality for women" but now it's "superiority for women". It's become synonymous with the man-hating femi-nazi types who think that all men deserve to die.

Well of course it has. It always has been. That's precisely why anti-feminists have been creating that association since the concept existed. Most of your post is excellent, as is your wont. This bit, though, well...There has literally never been a time when feminism wasn't being accused of going too far. When feminists weren't being accused of being simply female supremacists and man-hating, castrators-in-waiting, usually ugly and irrational to boot, even at very crucial times. That's really largely why so many women distance themselves from it, and why it persists as a strategy. It works.

You will, of course, always be able to find a few loonies who fit the description, but does anyone really think they actually have significant real world influence? Do we really live in a world in which female supremacy (which, if it were to come to pass, would be just as awful as male) reigns? To the point where we can see it clearly in salaries, powerful jobs, street harassment, sexual abuse, representation in popular stories and images, slang terms (go on, think of all the words to insult men and women, and tell me which list is longer and more vulgar) and all the rest of it? 

 

[Seicher Rae]

10 minutes ago, janetosilio said:

MSMA?

Yes, with brick red hats with white lettering and a little SL hand logo.

[Janet Voxel]

Just now, Seicher Rae said:

Yes, with brick red hats with white lettering and a little SL hand logo.

Looooove iiiiiit!!!!

[Conall DeCuir]

7 minutes ago, Amina Sopwith said:

No, it's discussion and discourse, like men do every day. What are you so scared of?

Trying to use the usual shaming tactics?

[Beth Macbain]

Perhaps the topic should be changed to "Making SL More Welcoming to the Type of Males We Women Want" because as much as I'd love to see more men in SL, it would suck if they were all like Donald Trump, Boris Johnson, Sean Hannity, Matt Lauer, Harvey Weinstein, Tucker Carlson, Les Mooves, Louis CK, Woody Allen, etc., etc., etc., et al, ad infinitum...

[Scylla Rhiadra]

15 minutes ago, Seicher Rae said:

"Feminist" is an uncomfortable word for me. It probably shouldn't be, but it is. "They" kind of lost me when it got to the point of silly, with the overly politically correct stuff, like when Sacramento's big issue was renaming manhole covers to personhole covers. There was a lot of that going on for a while. I also ran into the man-haters who swore they were the true carriers of the term feminism. Then there was the group that looked down their collective noses if a woman chose a traditional route of staying at home rather than going out there with a different kind of occupation. On the other hand, I fully support equal pay, equal rights, equal health care, equal laws, the right to choose...  I tend to like how men "are" in the world, more than I do women, but I have also been raped, so there's that.

 

15 minutes ago, Amina Sopwith said:

Well of course it has. It always has been. That's precisely why anti-feminists have been creating that association since the concept existed. Most of your post is excellent, as is your wont. This bit, though, well...There has literally never been a time when feminism wasn't being accused of going too far. When feminists weren't being accused of being simply female supremacists and man-hating, castrators-in-waiting, usually ugly and irrational to boot, even at very crucial times. That's really largely why so many women distance themselves from it, and why it persists as a strategy. It works.

You will, of course, always be able to find a few loonies who fit the description, but does anyone really think they actually have significant real world influence?

Feminism is, of course, a mansion of many rooms. The "movement" (notice the scare quotes!) includes a great many women whose views make me very uncomfortable or (as in the case of trans-exclusionary feminists) actually outright angry. I'm always tickled when someone talks about the "feminist agenda." Agree on a central platform or manifesto? Hah. We can't even collectively decide on what to order in for dinner.

I'm also curious as to why "feminism" has become an issue in this thread.

Does one need to be a "feminist" to treat women with respect, and refrain from derogatory and insulting characterizations? I should hope not -- although choosing to be respectful and inclusive certainly puts one well on the road to being a "feminist," regardless of what you call yourself.

I have a great deal to say about feminism -- but I'm not sure why I should need to say it here. Using inclusive and respectful language shouldn't require discussion of any "ism".

[Amina Sopwith]

15 minutes ago, Conall DeCuir said:

Trying to use the usual shaming tactics?

I don't know what you consider those to be, so I guess I can't say one way or another. But I'd legitimately like to know why women disagreeing with each other puts you in mind of a snake pit. Will you tell me?

[Storm Clarence]

On 11/15/2019 at 3:55 AM, Ren Toxx said:

More places dedicated to kill and/or f**k everything that moves, and half of the things that don’t?

You don't see how your words are rude, stereotypical; reeking of misandry and would turn men off from this game?    Why do you get a free pass? Just askin.

If what you say above is what men wanted then us, as men, would have built it.   Period.     Second life was started by a man.

Edited November 18, 2019 by Storm Clarence
ETA Backs out of thread. Too much hate after reading only 2 pages.

[Seicher Rae]

10 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I'm also curious as to why "feminism" has become an issue in this thread.

Does one need to be a "feminist" to treat women with respect, and refrain from derogatory and insulting characterizations? I should hope not -- although choosing to be respectful and inclusive certainly puts one well on the road to being a "feminist," regardless of what you call yourself.

I have a great deal to say about feminism -- but I'm not sure why I should need to say it here. Using inclusive and respectful language shouldn't require discussion of any "ism".

I have yet to master the art and magic of getting multiple quotes into a single comment, so... sorry about this.

I'm also curious as to why "feminism" has become an issue in this thread. Really? When the OP nearly screamed men vs women?

Does one need to be a "feminist" to treat women with respect, and refrain from derogatory and insulting characterizations? Nope, but I haven't seen anyone saying otherwise. The women haven't. The men haven't. The men have been largely quiet when you have repeatedly typed about mutual respect.

I have a great deal to say about feminism -- but I'm not sure why I should need to say it here. I'm not sure why you should need to say it here either, but you might, like others who have chosen to type about feminism. Those comments have been short and on topic. I dare say most of us don't need or want to see a symposium lecture on the subject here, but some might, and so far the thread hasn't been shut down.

[Orwar]

22 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Does one need to be a "feminist" to treat women with respect, and refrain from derogatory and insulting characterizations? I should hope not -- although choosing to be respectful and inclusive certainly puts one well on the road to being a "feminist," regardless of what you call yourself.

   I think that, because the definition of what a 'feminist' is, is so vague, a lot of people would rather not refer to themselves as one. I believe in equality before the law, irregardless of gender, ethnicity or sexual orientation, etc. Law aside, though, I do believe that the genders do better when complimenting each other rather than competing with each other.

   But I do find it very strange, with that 'equality' in mind, how misandry is socially acceptable and often encouraged, whilst the mere accusation of misogyny may cost you your job, your livelihood, and in extent, your home and life. How can there be equality or even democracy, when people are cut down for voicing an opinion?

4 minutes ago, Seicher Rae said:

I have yet to master the art and magic of getting multiple quotes into a single comment, so... sorry about this.

   Highlight the part which you wish to quote with your cursor, and wait for the 'quote selection' pop-up to appear! Please don't hate me for 'mansplaining'!

Edited November 18, 2019 by Orwar
Grammar

[Garnet Psaltery]

5 minutes ago, Orwar said:

Please don't hate me for 'mansplaining'!

My goodness, you suddenly went very small.  Must be the effect I have. 

Edited November 18, 2019 by Garnet Psaltery

[Orwar]

3 minutes ago, Garnet Psaltery said:

My goodness, you suddenly went very small.  Must be the effect I have. 

   ... Wouldn't it be hilarious if I gave that a cheeky retort?

[Seicher Rae]

3 minutes ago, Orwar said:

But I do find it very strange, with that 'equality' in mind, how misandry is socially acceptable and often encouraged, whilst the mere accusation of misogyny may cost you your job, your livelihood, and in extent, your home and life. How can there be equality or even democracy, when people are cut down for voicing an opinion?

I couldn't agree more. I realize the way things work in social advancements is that the pendulum first swings one way then over swings the other, and so on, until it settles down a bit. #metoo etc was a needed correction, but yes, it has now moved into the over-swing. It seems such an easy concept: Treat everyone the same with wages, etc.

3 minutes ago, Orwar said:

Highlight the part which you wish to quote with your cursor, and wait for the 'quote selection' pop-up to appear!

THANK YOU! Silly me kept trying to use the button that says "multiple quotes." Oh, I'm going to be quoting like mad now.

3 minutes ago, Orwar said:

Please don't hate me for 'mansplaining'!

That's not mansplaining! Just because a man explains something (as I start doing mansplaining) doesn't make it mansplaining. There was an implied question in my "I don't know how to..." and you answered! For what it is worth, women are just as capable of mansplaining as men. Yay equality.

[Beth Macbain]

We did get super far off course here, but I don't believe that really started until... no, wait, let me go check to make sure... hold please...

Oh. 

Well.

Huh.

What do you know, the first swipes were taken by women commenting on how men only want two things... to kill things and to bang things. I believe that started things down the path of us vs. them, and isn't that a shame? Could have been a nice discussion where men were actively encouraged to share the things that they love about SL as well as things they wish existed, or how from their perspective SL could be better marketed towards men.

Instead here we are, fussing as usual, getting nowhere, and we certainly haven't found anything that we could take to LL to suggest ways to attract the male audience.

I apologize, gentlemen, for those who went with the original snide remarks, and for my part in the brouhaha that didn't need to happen.  

 

[SpiritSparrow Skydancer]

On 11/15/2019 at 4:31 AM, Lewis Luminos said:

This is totally not my experience at all. I am a man and have been using a male avatar since 2006.

Talking to people isn't hard if you engage with them in local chat first. Get involved in the active conversation. If there is no active conversation, the problem isn't that you're male, it's that you're in the wrong place. And if your goal is to pick up women, then "Second Life" is probably the wrong place.

And that, I think, is part of the reason that SL fails for many men; because they come here with unrealistic expectations of SL as a dating service. It is a really terrible dating service, because the majority of women are not using it as a dating service at all.

Another thing SL is (now) bad at, is making money. If your expectation is to make SL your sole source of income, well that ain't gonna happen now, unless you are already a 3d-modeller to professional standard.

Why does SL work for me, when it doesn't work for other men? Well to begin with, my reason for coming to SL was the music, and that's why I am still here, 13 years later. Music is one of the things that SL continues to do well. Also, I am not and have never been a gamer, so I have never compared SL against the quality or content of any other game. I think most men who come to SL do so because they think it's another game, and they are inevitably disappointed.

Any place I've been where music (live music) is involved Open chat talking is NOT a great way to talk to people.  In between the  APPLAUSE and join out group and.. blah blah Hosts talking in all caps... your local is flooded with garbage and people miss any response, or are simply ignored.  

 

this I agree with.

Another thing SL is (now) bad at, is making money. If your expectation is to make SL your sole source of income, well that ain't gonna happen now, unless you are already a 3d-modeller to professional standard.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Garnet Psaltery]

13 hours ago, Orwar said:

   ... Wouldn't it be hilarious if I gave that a cheeky retort?

Ohhhh, I see. 😁

Edited November 19, 2019 by Garnet Psaltery

[Syo Emerald]

3 hours ago, Lewis Luminos said:

I'm surprised it hasn't yet reached a point of trying to make SL less appealing to men and hoping that we'll all just go away.

 

Part of this thread already reads like some men here see SL already in that way.

[Female Winslet]

I always feel amused when discussions come up because I go from the discussion about SL being too female-centric to logging in, DJing, and having people get all excited about “OMG A rl woman! That’s so rare in SL!”

It kinda makes me wonder. 

[Orwar]

9 minutes ago, Seicher Rae said:

That's not mansplaining! Just because a man explains something (as I start doing mansplaining) doesn't make it mansplaining. There was an implied question in my "I don't know how to..." and you answered! For what it is worth, women are just as capable of mansplaining as men. Yay equality.

   ... ... Peoplesplaining! No wait, that's plural. Personsplaining!

10 minutes ago, Seicher Rae said:

I couldn't agree more. I realize the way things work in social advancements is that the pendulum first swings one way then over swings the other, and so on, until it settles down a bit. #metoo etc was a needed correction, but yes, it has now moved into the over-swing. It seems such an easy concept: Treat everyone the same with wages, etc.

   I think that #MeToo was a blunt scalpel right off the bat, honestly. The result wasn't that we stopped up to have a good look at what was going on, but an immediate witch-hunt phenomenon which resulted in men losing their jobs at the mere pointing of a finger. Did some of those men deserve it? Most assuredly. Did all of them? No, some lives were ruined, possibly beyond repair, because some women abused this hysteria to hurt people.