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Bree Giffen

Making SL more welcoming to males

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   I haven't really kept up with this thread, I've peeked in a few times to offer my perspective, but it feels as if there has been too much bickering.

   More variety in apparel would probably be greatly appreciated by the existing members, and make it more likely that there is something that appeals to potential newcomers. It's not an issue of there being a too small amount of apparel, but if you've looked at the events for men's clothing it's been much of the same, to the point that you often find the same mesh models recycled with different textures from one booth to the next; we don't need more suits, we don't need more shorts, we don't need more tank tops or T-shirts - and that creators drop out of the events because their stuff doesn't sell well enough that it's worth the effort, well, that's because the market for those things has already been so excessively saturated. I already have enough suits that I could wear a different one every day of the week, and I'm not interested in having any more T-shirts, tank tops or board shorts.

   But I think that perhaps the most pressing issue is evident within this very thread; the attitude against men in SL, the prejudice about how we only want 'one thing', and how we only have 'one intention', and how we 'don't deserve' any 'special treatment'.

   When you come into SL, you're hit with a pretty steep learning curve, and an often superficial community. If you're in luck, someone will grab you by the arm and show you where to get decked out with some clothes, a body or a head. If you're not so lucky, you may just be blatantly ignored because you look like a potato, or even worse, scolded for it.

   I didn't always care about my avatar's appearance, I don't know whether that had anything to do with being a man or not; I didn't come here for fashion, but for socialisation and to explore my own creativity, and to see whether I might find any interesting roleplay to partake in. I was very slow to jump on the mesh train, because I didn't at all get the point of it. When I finally did, and sat down to actually put some effort into my avatar's appearance, I immediately noticed a very significant change in how others, especially women, acted towards me. Again, when I picked up interest in photography I noticed the next stage of this; I mentioned 'photographer' on my profile, and briefly had a 'photographer' tag over my head, that I eventually got rid of because of how, wherever I went, there were women coming at me. I wasn't even a half-decent photographer yet, but the superficial fantasies of a majority of women in Second Life, and the difference in attitude I was met with, was very telling to me.

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20 hours ago, Skell Dagger said:

A lot of the men on this forum are avoiding this thread LIKE HELL. Because reading the previous 7 pages...? I don't personally feel at all welcomed.

Yep - after reading the next 5 after that I feel even less welcome in this thread than I did at page 7.

13 hours ago, Seicher Rae said:

So, what do you want?

What I want in SL, is what I've got already. My avatar looking just the way I want it, good music, good friends, my own home, a little club, a boat and a couple of horses. 

 

12 hours ago, Tari Landar said:

Men are most definitely not the trophy holders on "just here for the sexors"...women, by far and large hold that trophy...by far and large. Part of that is the sheer number of women (again women avs, not necessarily women behind them) compared to men. 

There are HOW many threads in the relationship forum, made by females, looking for males, or made by females, dominated by females, etc... all discussing sex, stripping, sugar daddies, how many men want them, how awesome of people they are, how great their services are, how.........? (I'm not judging, or knocking, I say you do you...I just don't sugarcoat this truth). Women, absolutely dominate this field, men haven't got a chance, lol.

Yeah, let's not pretend there aren't women (female avs, again) in sl that are out looking to hit on every male av they can find-especially when those male avs are visually appealing to them. Or looking to take someone home, or dancing, escorting, etc.. for money (again, not a knock, I really don't judge, honestly...I really do take a you do you approach,I've done the stripping thing in sl myself, lol). Women start just as many idiotic conversations with "hi", "hru", "hot av"... and the intentions of at some point getting that dude to whip out his dangly for them...even if it's just in an employment capacity. 

Over the years I've had a handful of IMs from women I've never spoken to, saying "hi, hot av" or words to that effect. One of them, in my very early days, even ended up with me dating her for a short while, though she dropped me like a hot potato when I told her I was a trans man in RL.  Generally, I tell them thank you, and I'm flattered, and maybe we go on to chat about other things, and eventually the conversation dies. I'm not single in SL, and not interested in casual encounters, but an IM like that doesn't upset me or offend me at all. 

But I certainly don't get these sort of IMs in anywhere near the quantity that women seem to get them from men.  I have a female alt, who I take out in public rarely, but I've had more of that sort of IM on Indra in the equivalent of a few collected weeks, than I have on my main avatar (this one) in 11 years.  And given that there are so many more women than men in SL, and how supposedly desperate these women are? Why is that? Why aren't men getting these sexual come-ons from women all the time too?  Or is it just me who's not getting them? Do women hate ginger guys? Or maybe I don't look wealthy enough? Or my avatar is actually really ugly, and I just can't see it?

Or maybe, it's just not happening all that often.

 

1 hour ago, Matty Luminos said:

I am pretty certain you're right - most men aren't here for sex at all. But I wonder if those men are even IMing women at all on a regular basis? I don't remember the last time I IM'd a woman (or a man) I didn't already know just to say hi. Probably it was several weeks ago. Whereas the guys that ARE looking for free sex are IMing hundreds of women a day.

I don't think I have ever IMd a woman that I didn't already know, (except in a business capacity. By which I do not mean the escort business). And based on what I'm reading here, and in some of the other related threads, I think it is definitely safer not to do so, ever.

 

1 hour ago, Matty Luminos said:

None of these conversations should be talking about "men" and "women" at all. We are talking about "people" here. If a person treats all people with equal respect, then naturally they will be treating women with the same respect that they treat men. 

Unfortunately it's not an even slate to start with, and the reason why women aren't fighting for men to have the same rights, is because men have already had them, for at least centuries, and probably millennia. Why should men expect women to fight for us, when we've (collectively, as a gender throughout history) treated them so badly since the dawn of human civilization? 

That doesn't mean that women have the right to abuse men to "make up for it". It's time to draw a line in the ledger, write off the past and for everyone to treat all others with respect, regardless of their gender (or sexuality, or race, or disability, or religion). Respect should be given based on merit and behaviour, nothing else.

Completely agree with this. Men and women are not different alien species, and there are literally no traits at all that are true for all members of one gender and none of the other. There are trends of course, but those trends are in no way definitive.  Every person on this planet is completely unique - I may share some traits with some people but there's no-one in the world who is exactly like me. Or you. Or anyone else here. We should be giving respect to others based on the level of respect they show themselves to deserve, not on something as arbitrary as gender.

The feminist movement has, I think, caused as much harm to the cause of women as it has helped. In the early years of course, it was crucial. It gave women the right to own property, to vote, to work in the same industries as men for the same pay.  But in recent years it's become a very loaded word that no longer means "equality for women" but now it's "superiority for women". It's become synonymous with the man-hating femi-nazi types who think that all men deserve to die. I am fully in favour of women being treated the same as men, earning the same salary as men, having the same opportunities as men. But I would not call myself a Feminist, not any more.

I hate to say it because I was never a fan of their music, but the Spice Girls got it right. They were a big thing in my daughter's formative years and their "Girl Power" gave a much better message - that girls should have as much power to be and do whatever they want, as boys have. As much as, not more than.  These days, Lady Ga-Ga is giving out a similar message - you be you, and don't worry about what anyone else thinks. Be a sexual woman if you want to be. But be sexual for your own pleasure, not for the pleasure of others.

 

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I'm not bored enough to read up what has happened in the last 5,6 pages since I last checked in on this thread. Sooo...

- have we gotten an answer to why SL should, artificially, be made more appealing to a male audiance, when its base concept is a sandbox of (almost) endless freedom and self-expression?

- have we reached the boiling point yet and unmasked women as evil and at fault for whatever?

 

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52 minutes ago, Ajay McDowwll said:

Regarding clothing for men, I've had some really good luck shopping for my husband.  He's about as far from "edgy" as they get, dress-wise, and has one outfit he normally wears.

One.  One outfit that's not even made to work with his Signature Gianni body, so it understandably drives him crazy.

I went on Marketplace last night and searched for types of clothes he's said he wants that were made for his body, in order to lessen his frustration (jeans, t-shirts, jorts, kilts), and gifted him a few items.  I expect to see him looking like his RL self as soon as he goes inworld and tries on the clothes.

So, like, probably February 2020 😛

I'm similar, though I have a few more outfits than just one. Actually I have a lot, but most of it is pretty rubbish and I don't wear most of it at all. But I definitely stick to a small number of favourites and most of it is the same sort of thing that I wear in RL - flannel shirt with jeans, sometimes a leather jacket. Tanks and shorts for the beach only (which is a bit more often since I changed my home parcel to be a beach). I rarely wear a suit in RL (only for weddings, funerals and job interviews) but I wear them often in SL since I'm often in a formal club, either my own or someone else's.

I do change my hair quite often, though I tend to stick to the same sorts of styles; either short and formal, or longer and a bit scruffy. When I get new hair, I'm looking for similar styles in better quality and/or lower ARC. And ginger, of course. 

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3 hours ago, Erwin Solo said:
10 hours ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

On average, they're more massive than us, and so burn brighter and longer. What's not to like about that?

They didn't like your gender-differentiating acronym and countered with guillotines, and body-burning and still claim the moral high ground.  That's just over-the-top.

...adds you to her "do not set on fire" list.

Unfortunately, it's too late for these poor fellas...
481392665_ScreenShot2019-11-18at8_56_39AM.thumb.jpg.9293ef8ad3943f571122b221efc1ce8e.jpg

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2 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

...adds you to her "do not set on fire" list.

Unfortunately, it's too late for these poor fellas...
481392665_ScreenShot2019-11-18at8_56_39AM.thumb.jpg.9293ef8ad3943f571122b221efc1ce8e.jpg

That's how you "welcome" people?

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8 minutes ago, Syo Emerald said:

I'm not bored enough to read up what has happened in the last 5,6 pages since I last checked in on this thread. Sooo...

- have we gotten an answer to why SL should, artificially, be made more appealing to a male audiance, when its base concept is a sandbox of (almost) endless freedom and self-expression?

I'm surprised it hasn't yet reached a point of trying to make SL less appealing to men and hoping that we'll all just go away.

 

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9 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:
3 hours ago, Erwin Solo said:
10 hours ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

On average, they're more massive than us, and so burn brighter and longer. What's not to like about that?

They didn't like your gender-differentiating acronym and countered with guillotines, and body-burning and still claim the moral high ground.  That's just over-the-top.

...adds you to her "do not set on fire" list.

Your 'setting people on fire' to show affection is cute.  It is kind of a male way to show affection -- punching of the arm, getting the other person in a headlock and the like.  My brother used to show affection to me when greeting by a feigned punch to the arm.  If one of my female friends did that it would seem very odd.

I would expect that Erwin would understand all this, being a male, so am surprised.

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3 hours ago, Matty Luminos said:

....the reason why women aren't fighting for men to have the same rights, is because men have already had them, for at least centuries, and probably millennia. Why should men expect women to fight for us, when we've (collectively, as a gender throughout history) treated them so badly since the dawn of human civilization? 

That doesn't mean that women have the right to abuse men to "make up for it". It's time to draw a line in the ledger, write off the past and for everyone to treat all others with respect, regardless of their gender (or sexuality, or race, or disability, or religion). Respect should be given based on merit and behaviour, nothing else.

I majored in Women's Studies, and we learned the negative stereotypes that held men back as much as we learned what kept women from becoming more empowered. 

But to your other point...how to we determine when it is time to "draw a line in the ledger, write off the past....".   Women still don't have equal rights in so many ways -- I was just reading about how women get much longer sentences when murdering their husbands (even if they were repeatedly abused) vs the lesser sentences men get for murdering their wives.  I could go on and on listing the inequality that still exists.

But yes, ideally the past should be the past.  However, when one group has been oppressed by another a trauma occurs that takes time to heal -- it can't be vanished by simply stating what should ideally be happening if a person had not gone through that trauma. In other words, it's helpful to cut the oppressed group a little slack as they work to feel equal to the group that oppressed them.  They might get a little snarky, express some anger, sometimes inappropriately  -- similar to how an adolescent does in their attempts to gain independence.

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12 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Your 'setting people on fire' to show affection is cute.  It is kind of a male way to show affection -- punching of the arm, getting the other person in a headlock and the like.  My brother used to show affection to me when greeting by a feigned punch to the arm.  If one of my female friends did that it would seem very odd.

I would expect that Erwin would understand all this, being a male, so am surprised.

My grandpa would give a "Dutch rub", that's when you rub someone's noggin with your knuckles, hard.

Edited by Love Zhaoying
Not to be confused with a "Dutch rudder".
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53 minutes ago, Lewis Luminos said:

The feminist movement has, I think, caused as much harm to the cause of women as it has helped. In the early years of course, it was crucial. It gave women the right to own property, to vote, to work in the same industries as men for the same pay.  But in recent years it's become a very loaded word that no longer means "equality for women" but now it's "superiority for women". It's become synonymous with the man-hating femi-nazi types who think that all men deserve to die.

We still need feminism as women are still not equal to men in society.

The reason that, for some, feminism has become synonymous with "the man-hating femi-nazi types" is because those who want the male to remain in power (and there are some women who want this too, who like the stratification of society) is because those who want the staus quo to remain succeeded in labeling feminism as such -- control the narrative, keep the power.

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Btw, i showed some of my friends (women) this thread and they were totally put off by what they had to read, especially from some female members. Soooo, if women, who are no feminists at all, are already turned off, the men who would be interested to communicate here and in SL will be for sure too. 

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5 minutes ago, Conall DeCuir said:

Making SL more welcoming to males

Maybe it's time to create our own regions?

I think those are called "Gor".

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1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I think those are called "Gor".

Naa, thats just another bdsm club overrun by kinky girls. 

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25 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Your 'setting people on fire' to show affection is cute.

Cute?

CUTE?!

I'd tell you go to to hell, but if you listened to me the last time, you're already here.

Edited by Madelaine McMasters
Removed a "t" that makes a hell of a difference.
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2 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:
27 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Your 'setting people on fire' to show affection is cute.

Cute?

CUTE?!

I'd tell you go to to hell, but if you listened to me the last time, you're already there.

Thanks for your heaven-wishes...lol

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13 minutes ago, Lewis Luminos said:

I'm surprised it hasn't yet reached a point of trying to make SL less appealing to men and hoping that we'll all just go away.

I thought we had reached the point where we all agreed that generalizations are bad. 

At this point, as a certified card-holding feminist AND a certified card-holding man lover, I'm amused at the gentlemen in this thread who are so incredibly butt-hurt over what is essentially the same type of flippant, casual gender-biased treatment women have been experiencing for... well, forever, really, so you'll have to excuse the general lack of sympathy from the females of the species who have lived with this sort of thing since the day we entered the world.

Suck it up, buttercups.

That doesn't make it right but, you know, welcome to our world. 

You guys should just sit there and smile and look pretty while we women tell you what's best for you. 

#thatsajoke

This thread has not been man-bashing. The point was made, and ignored, that women in RL and SL want respect. Some men are idiots and treat women like dirt. Most men do not. Some women are idiots and treat men like dirt. Most women do not. 

The first time Maddy set me on fire, I was horrified and offended to my core. I was about to report her when someone let me in on truth that when Maddy sets someone on fire, she's really just saying "I love you."

The vast majority of men I meet in SL are freaking awesome-sauce. I have also met several men who should probably be institutionalized and/or locked in jail. I'm going to call out that behavior just the same as I'm going to call out women for their awful behavior. 

I've been accused of selling out my gender because I love and will defend men so much. On the whole, I adore the male gender and prefer their company to women. But holy crap, the ones that are awful are really awful and they do taint the male gender. If guys don't like it, then do something about the ones who should be an embarrassment to you.

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4 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

The first time Maddy set me on fire, I was horrified and offended to my core. I was about to report her when someone let me in on truth that when Maddy sets someone on fire, she's really just saying "I love you."

What?!

This is how rumors get started, Beth. Knock it off.

Let's just go back to you being offended to your core and reporting me. I dare ya.

...sets you on fire.

Edited by Madelaine McMasters
Someone can't spell "it".
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20 minutes ago, Conall DeCuir said:

Btw, i showed some of my friends (women) this thread and they were totally put off by what they had to read, especially from some female members. Soooo, if women, who are no feminists at all, are already turned off, the men who would be interested to communicate here and in SL will be for sure too. 

Why would you imagine that all women agree with each other? And why would you not consider the possible confirmation bias involved in asking your personal friendship circle to give its verdict?

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1 minute ago, Amina Sopwith said:

Why would you imagine that all women agree with each other? And why would you not consider the possible confirmation bias involved in asking your personal friendship circle to give its verdict?

Oh, i know not all women agree with each other. It's a snakepit! :)

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46 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

You got a better way?

Better than setting them on fire? Maybe compose an epic poem celebrating the occasion of their welcoming.

There used to be a resident who would write tiny songs for people (containing their name in the lyric), he would upload them as gesture sounds and sell to the person for a modest sum.

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4 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Maybe compose an epic poem celebrating the occasion of their welcoming.

There was a young lion named Love.
Who's presence was much like a dove.
He's funny and nice.
And doesn't have lice.
Still... into the fire I'll him shove.

How's that?

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