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Making SL more welcoming to males


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18 minutes ago, janetosilio said:

Y'know....you don't even need a real spanker. Some guys greeting actually is: /me spanks you.

I had (sort of still have) a friend who used to greet me every time he IMed me with what I'm sure he saw as a playful "slap on the ass." It annoyed the **** out of me, because it imposed a forced and unasked for intimacy, as well as reducing me, at least momentarily, to my butt. We had two or three discussions about this (the last of which may possibly have involved me going spectacularly nuclear), and eventually I was able to make it clear that this was unwelcome -- and he stopped.

Were someone whom I did not know to approach me that way, there'd subsequently be so little of him left that they'd be able to bury him in a shoe box.

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This is totally not my experience at all. I am a man and have been using a male avatar since 2006. Talking to people isn't hard if you engage with them in local chat first. Get involved in the ac

I see this has gone back down into the weeds of interpersonal disputes, so it's musical thread lock time. Fortunately, the thesis of this thread has given me inspiration. Time to lock this thread now

I'm kind of surprised that this thread hasn't been locked yet.  Far too much here for me to respond to all of what I wanted to respond to (I tried to do some before I went to bed last night but my int

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26 minutes ago, Seicher Rae said:

Who can resist a big, red random button on the wall?

It's transparent and phantom. No one knows it's there unless they are looking for it. And I don't mind if people are looking for it. I do mind when they start clicking my bits just because they're there. Some people click by mistake, yes, and those are almost always followed up with an "OMG, I'm so sorry!" IM and that's fine. But the guys who see it's there, or are looking for one, and just start spanking me are no different to me than guys who grope women in real life just because women have butts and boobs. 

I don't consider it assault like I would in the real world, but I do consider it very gauche and rude behavior, and that'll earn the person a block.

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With some women saying "don't you do it!" and others shrugging and saying "context" (or similar) I think the takeaway here for the would be slappers is: When in doubt, don't. Which, quite frankly, is pretty awesome advice for all sorts of situations.

PS. Then of course you have the slappers who don't give a flying eff what the slappee wants or feels, who — yay for SL — we can block.

Edited by Seicher Rae
to add ps
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5 hours ago, AyelaNewLife said:

Hey so don't laugh... but spankers actually work as great icebreakers.

Picture the scene; you're standing/walking/sitting somewhere minding your own business, when suddenly your spanker activates. Cue the sound effect, the text in local... and start a two minute timer. Because once that timer is up, you'll know if the spanker-person is a creepy lecher you'd rather avoid, or if they're simply playful/flirty.

It speeds up the "is this guy/girl to be avoided or are they okay?" phase, and skips the awkward introduction phase of a conversation. Honestly a win-win.

Edit: And if you run into one of "those types" that mashes the spanker like it's an arcade game, you don't even need to talk to them before blocking them!

Yeah, sure, I get that.

There was a kind of imperceptible shift here in the discussion that has maybe obscured my original point, which wasn't about spankers per se, but rather about the little bit of thinly-disguised locker room banter in which they played a prominent role.

Spankers, at least the kind of funny, public spankers that we are mostly talking about here, are not at all my thing, for reasons that I don't think it necessary for me to go into here. But I also don't object to them on principle: if people find them entertaining and, as you say, an "icebreaker," then that's absolutely fine with me. I'd be willing to bet I probably have an old spanker attachment in my inventory: I remember when they were a big thing in clubs and social gatherings. They're just not my thing.

What I did sort of object to was the initial context for the discussion, which would not have been out of place in a boy's high school changing room.

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Just now, Alwin Alcott said:

7 pages... and surprising like RL .. nearly all women who think to know what's good for "us "  :SwingingFriends:

Well, possibly if some of the men in this thread weren't so focused upon the sexual availability of women as an inducement for hanging out on the platform, we women might have less to say on the matter?

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1 minute ago, Alwin Alcott said:

7 pages... and surprising like RL .. nearly all women who think to know what's good for "us "  :SwingingFriends:

I laughed.

But to be fair, the premise is that there are far more women than men in SL (and that sure seems true of the Forum). So just statistically there will be more women responding. Also, no one is stopping the men from replying!

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5 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Well, possibly if some of the men in this thread weren't so focused upon the sexual availability of women as an inducement for hanging out on the platform, we women might have less to say on the matter?

you can accuse me for a lot here lol..but not for sexul hints or other things against women :)

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16 minutes ago, Skell Dagger said:

A lot of the men on this forum are avoiding this thread LIKE HELL. Because reading the previous 7 pages...? I don't personally feel at all welcomed.

The problem is the underlying premise of the thread, which reduces this to another "what do men/women want?" discussion. Surely the point, made by someone or another above, is that the same things that appeal to women here should also appeal to men.

I didn't intervene here substantively at first because I've got nothing to say on this subject. I have some good male friends about whose interests I can speak authoritatively, but "Men" as a broad category? I defy anyone, male or female, to speak on behalf of such a broad and diverse community.

Where I got involved was here:

On 11/15/2019 at 7:41 PM, operationhammerman said:

Disbanding the misandrist forum knitting circle might be a start...

Failing that, LL should at the very least lock down or remove the "I hate life" thread, IMO. Any male newcomers reading that would probably conclude that SL is just a hive for female hysteria. 

Does that surprise you? Suddenly we're no longer talking about what "men" want, are we?

And here, in a post that initiates a short discussion that essentially reduces women to the status of a platform "affordance":

On 11/16/2019 at 12:20 AM, iamyourneighbour said:

Social wise I do not see issues, the P2D ratio is pretty good, I prefer a high P2D over sausage party. I am that guy that clicks on the back first to see if there's a slapping sound.

SL is great! There are building tools, and music clubs, and lots and lots of sexually available female genitals women who are just dying for it.

I am legitimately sorry if my response to that kind of crap makes men feel unwelcome -- but maybe those who do should ask themselves why this might have evoked the response it did?

Edited by Scylla Rhiadra
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This is all so freaking goofy. I love men. Anyone who knows me knows I love men. All sorts of different flavors of men. Men are freaking amazing. But men who touch my butt in SL or RL without permission to touch my butt don't get excused just because I freaking love men more than ice cream - and I love ice cream a lot. 

I would love, love, love, love, love to have more men in SL because the more men we have, the higher the likelihood that they will be the kind of guys who don't go around touching women without permission, or being just general jerks, because in my RL experience, the awesome men far outnumber the idiot men. 

I repeat - men are freaking fabulous as a whole. There are few things I'd love more than to see the balance shift in SL to where there is an equal number, if not greater number, of men than women. Because men are the bomb-diggity. 

As to the original question of how to make SL more welcoming to men, my personal belief is that LL's PR, marketing, graphic designers, and web designers needs to stop targeting just women. I just pulled up the homepage and every single picture is of women, except one with a couple on a motorcycle where the man is facing away and the woman is facing the camera and one of a guy (with a chick) playing guitar that looks like he stepped out of a Doobie Brothers video in 1978. The very first image I got slapped with was Helly, Kitty. And OMG, now that I'm clicking around the website, the entire thing desperately needs to be updated. That would help with attracting new users both male and female. 

27 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

There are building tools, and music clubs, and lots and lots of sexually available female genitals women who are just dying for it.

I may be reading this the wrong way, but it strikes a sour note for me. I'm reading this as an assumption that any female-presenting avatar that is sex positive and sexually open must be a male playing as a female or, by reducing women to "female genitals", it reads as sl*t-shaming. I can only speak for myself, and provide purely anecdotal evidence. I'm extremely sexually open, but it is only one aspect of who I am and I hate to see women reducing me to my genitals because of my sexuality. I hate it from men, too, but it's especially bothersome to me when it comes from women. 

Throughout my years of running a very sexual SL blog, I cannot tell you the number of times I have received an email, or been approached in SL, or some other channel, from women saying they wish they had my courage to be as sexually open as I am. When I ask why they aren't, it answer is almost always because they don't want people to look down on them. 

I think that's a shame. I think it's atrocious that women who want to live a sex-positive and open life are still, in 2019, shamed for their sexuality and their desires.

Edited by Beth Macbain
I did indeed read it wrong!
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54 minutes ago, Skell Dagger said:

A lot of the men on this forum are avoiding this thread LIKE HELL. Because reading the previous 7 pages...? I don't personally feel at all welcomed.

Yeah, I'm sorry to hear this. I get it. Unfortunately a lot of the men who did respond (not all!) were of the "get me a sammich" ilk, which of course gets people to twitching.

As I said originally, I don't really agree with the premise of the OP. That's a little odd, considering my SL ex-partner is my ex because he just doesn't really like SL and is rarely ever here (I have to whine a LOT and say "come see the sim I just built!" or something). In a nutshell, he has a high end gaming machine and loves all most things virtual, even to the extent of combining his anthropology and computer science background into a PhD on a "game" related topic. He hates fiddling with the avatars, he hates the way you navigate the avatars in SL, he hates the silly technical glitches that always seem to come up when we are together (WHY ISN'T THE VOICE CHAT WORKING?! or impossible sim crossings or...), and don't even get him started on the political background of the Libertarian experiment SL was founded upon. Even with all that experience of why a man doesn't gravitate toward SL, I think the premise is a bit off.

(And ex is still my RL bff&e)

Edited by Seicher Rae
For the love of god, I can't write a sentence any more.
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2 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Does that surprise you? Suddenly we're no longer talking about what "men" want, are we?

Exactly. It is amazing how quickly a question about what men want can become, well, complaints about something else. Like people who'd rather complain about feminists being displeasing than, I don't know, lack of prostate cancer awareness, male suicide and paternal contact with children after divorce. Not SL related, those things, so maybe you wouldn't see them discussed much here. But just in general, I see less discourse about them in general than I do about the knitting circles. 

Like Scylla, I also read and said nothing for a while because I was interested to know what people, especially men, had to say. Again like Scylla, it never occured to me that a place with building tools, music and motorcycle clubs and scores upon scores of willing women would not be welcoming to men. Sure, there's the lack of av customisation options and it would be good for that to be addressed, but the rest would still seem to make an appealing package overall. No?

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2 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

I may be reading this the wrong way, but it strikes a sour note for me. I'm reading this as an assumption that any female-presenting avatar that is sex positive and sexually open must be a male playing as a female or, by reducing women to "female genitals", it reads as sl*t-shaming. I can only speak for myself, and provide purely anecdotal evidence. I'm extremely sexually open, but it is only one aspect of who I am and I hate to see women reducing me to my genitals because of my sexuality. I hate it from men, too, but it's especially bothersome to me when it comes from women.

I think, with respect, that you are reading it wrong, Beth. My reference to "female genitals" was an allusion to the use of the term -- from a man -- of "P2D." I am pretty sure I'm not wrong in my assumption about what the "P" here stands for.

This is precisely about language. Had this poster said something like "SL is a great place to meet people! Those looking for romantic or sexual partners will meet many others who share their interest," I'd have not merely not commented -- I'd have agreed.

My remarks weren't "***** shaming": they were a criticism of someone choosing language that reduces me and all women to the status of my genitals.

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1 minute ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I think, with respect, that you are reading it wrong, Beth. My reference to "female genitals" was an allusion to the use of the term -- from a man -- of "P2D." I am pretty sure I'm not wrong in my assumption about what the "P" here stands for.

This is precisely about language. Had this poster said something like "SL is a great place to meet people! Those looking for romantic or sexual partners will meet many others who share their interest," I'd have not merely not commented -- I'd have agreed.

My remarks weren't "***** shaming": they were a criticism of someone choosing language that reduces me and all women to the status of my genitals.

Thank you! I did indeed read it wrong, and absolutely concur with you about that dude's use of "P2D". 

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24 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

As to the original question of how to make SL more welcoming to men, my personal belief is that LL's PR, marketing, graphic designers, and web designers needs to stop targeting just women. I just pulled up the homepage and every single picture is of women, except one with a couple on a motorcycle where the man is facing away and the woman is facing the camera and one of a guy (with a chick) playing guitar that looks like he stepped out of a Doobie Brothers video in 1978. The very first image I got slapped with was Helly, Kitty. And OMG, now that I'm clicking around the website, the entire thing desperately needs to be updated. That would help with attracting new users both male and female. (emphasis mine, SR)

Yes. I'm always shocked at exactly what you just described as the antiquated and skewed webpage. I roll my eyes and chuckle that they still have "a new benefit for Premium members" for Linden homes (new? In what decade?), and at the top of the list of "connect and share" is the link to the my.secondlife feed which LL has thoroughly abandoned and which doesn't work, and 99% of people, new and old, either don't use or have no clue it is there. They even ish me out with the Hello Kitty (I know why they featured it), and if that had been what I saw when I first thought about joining, I wouldn't have.

Edited by Seicher Rae
srsly can no longer write a sentence :::sobs:::
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1 hour ago, Skell Dagger said:

A lot of the men on this forum are avoiding this thread LIKE HELL. Because reading the previous 7 pages...? I don't personally feel at all welcomed.

Thing is Skell (you know this) you aren't like most guys women encounter and we know that. Not because you're Mister Frilly Britches, but because you don't treat women the way too many men do. It goes back to that TED talk you posted in that other thread. You're more of a teddy bear than a grizzly. That's why we love you.

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7 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Tell that to the guys who are firm believers in, "When in doubt, whup it out." They aren't going to listen even if they do hear you.

That's why I added the PS to that comment regarding when in doubt, don't. "When in doubt, don't" is applicable to people of reason. We all know that isn't everyone.

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41 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Thing is Skell (you know this) you aren't like most guys women encounter and we know that. Not because you're Mister Frilly Britches, but because you don't treat women the way too many men do. It goes back to that TED talk you posted in that other thread. You're more of a teddy bear than a grizzly. That's why we love you.

There's a difference between "most guys women encounter" and the way "too many men" treat women. One guy ill-treating women is too many. I don't think "most" guys are a-holes, any more than all women are a-holes, though god knows there is a fair amount of both. Most of the guys I encounter, in SL or RL, are just as likely to be ok (or not) as the women. (In point of fact, in both my lives, it has been the women who have caused the majority of the problems.)

Edited by Seicher Rae
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6 minutes ago, Seicher Rae said:

There's a difference between "most guys women encounter" and they way "too many men" treat women. One guy ill-treating women is too many. I don't think "most" guys are a-holes, any more than all women are a-holes, though god knows there is a fair amount of both. Most of the guys I encounter, in SL or RL, are just as likely to be ok (or not) as the women. (In point of fact, in both my lives, it has been the women who have caused the majority of the problems.)

There are reasons I get along with men far better and more often than women. You named one of them. Another is the neighborhood I grew up in. All boys. None of that changes the fact that most of the guys I've encountered in SL turned out to only want one thing from me. Note that I said most, not all. There have been a few that weren't after sex. Unfortunately the ones who just want sex far outnumber those who are not like that, in my experience. So, yes, I will be on guard. Life has taught me I can never let my guard down until the guy proves to me he isn't just trying to get in my pants.

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13 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

None of that changes the fact that most of the guys I've encountered in SL turned out to only want one thing from me. 

[...]

Unfortunately the ones who just want sex far outnumber those who are not like that, in my experience. So, yes, I will be on guard. Life has taught me I can never let my guard down until the guy proves to me he isn't just trying to get in my pants.

Yup, and that is why anecdotal discussions are both useful and not. Your experiences are different than mine and that's fine. Of course our varied experiences color our realities, it would be silly if they didn't. Where people get into trouble is when they start foisting their own realities onto others (not saying you've done that, but again, we all know it happens). Empathy and respect and a healthy sense of humor go a long way toward a lot of issues.

Edited by Seicher Rae
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2 hours ago, Skell Dagger said:

A lot of the men on this forum are avoiding this thread LIKE HELL. Because reading the previous 7 pages...? I don't personally feel at all welcomed.

Yeah, the guillotine subtopic is not particularly welcoming.  

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