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Making SL more welcoming to males

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2 hours ago, Skell Dagger said:

A lot of the men on this forum are avoiding this thread LIKE HELL. Because reading the previous 7 pages...? I don't personally feel at all welcomed.

Yeah, the guillotine subtopic is not particularly welcoming.  

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53 minutes ago, Erwin Solo said:

Yeah, the guillotine subtopic is not particularly welcoming.  

Guess it depends on the man. Apparently it is a thing in SL (not my thing, but a thing). Of the makers of the p***s guillotines (two) that show up on the marketplace, one designer is a woman and one is a man (avatar). How's that for equal time? One also needs that attachment for it to work. SL is pretty inclusive...

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4 hours ago, Skell Dagger said:

A lot of the men on this forum are avoiding this thread LIKE HELL. Because reading the previous 7 pages...? I don't personally feel at all welcomed.

Well, I also have stood on the sidelines of this, and another 'what about the menz????' thread (mostly in that one, not entirely, like 1-2 posts early on, perhaps), and have my own take on both. I will keep that to myself, but I am curious on how you feel about the responses men have made to this this thread in particular? And how (or even if) you feel women's responses might be related those kinds of statements by men?

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1 hour ago, Erwin Solo said:

Yeah, the guillotine subtopic is not particularly welcoming.  

The guillotine subtopic, as you put it, was not free-standing, and didn't pop out of nowhere. It was riffing upon, and mocking, the equally "not particularly welcoming" characterization of women in this forum as a "misandrist forum knitting circle" -- a characterization that you, btw, implicitly endorsed in your own response. As you may or may not be aware, a group of Jacobin women who witnessed the Terror did so while working at their knitting: that was where the image was drawn from.

It was not advocacy for castration: it was explicitly mocking the ridiculous suggestion that women here are attacking men. We aren't.

Maybe I'm being too subtle. Let me be a bit more blunt.

I will not be "welcoming" men who refer to women here as a "misandrist forum knitting circle."

I will not be "welcoming" men who refer to all women as "p******"

I will not be "welcoming" men who talk about how "hysterical" women are.

Unfriendly of me, I know. But am I being a bit clearer?

 

 

Edited by Scylla Rhiadra
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21 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

The guillotine subtopic, as you put it, was not free-standing, and didn't pop out of nowhere. It was riffing upon, and mocking, the equally "not particularly welcoming" characterization of women in this forum as a "misandrist forum knitting circle" -- a characterization that you, btw, implicitly endorsed in your own response. 

There was also this gem. I only just now realised he posted it in two places. I love it when he talks dirty.

7 hours ago, Erwin Solo said:

If you are interested, you might type keywords like these into your favorite search engine: psychology today female competition.  Perhaps vary the words depending on your interest.  For example, adding the word "academic" changes the mix of articles.

One of the common competitive techniques is to articulate and support norms of low-availability in public discourse to reduce competition, and then provide substantially more availability in private to gain competitive advantage.  

Like many behaviors, observation in arranged social experiments provides significantly different results than those gained through direct questionnaires (e.g., the broader narrative here).  The key point is not that people are dishonest in questionnaires--though there does seem to be a level of 'spin' in questionnaire responses--rather it seems that the subconscious drives much of the behavior. 

This relates to the thread topic, "Making SL more welcoming to males," in that a certain level of discouragement (sometimes articulated in this thread) is just part of a social ritual. 

In other words...

 

download.jpeg.jpg.a5ba6d1ecc3d5d08e4a70daa4906b603.jpg

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9 minutes ago, Amina Sopwith said:

There was also this gem. I only just now realised he posted it in two places. I love it when he talks dirty.

In other words...

 

download.jpeg.jpg.a5ba6d1ecc3d5d08e4a70daa4906b603.jpg

Yeah.

In the final analysis, someone who has chosen to use the "ignore" button to avoid listening to alternate perspectives has already signaled that they don't matter. They aren't listening, engaging, learning, or contributing.

I think that most men here know that we value their presence, and their contributions to the forums, and to Second Life. And I would like to believe that most understand why we might respond the way we have to this kind of misogyny.

But there are a few posters here who have done their level best to make this thread an "unwelcoming" place for women. And I have no intention of letting that stand.

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1 minute ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Yeah.

In the final analysis, someone who has chosen to use the "ignore" button to avoid listening to alternate perspectives has already signaled that they don't matter. They aren't listening, engaging, learning, or contributing.

It doesn't bother me. I didn't even realise I'd spoken to him before, that's how much of an impression he made. I'm not going to return the favour though. I sincerely hope he keeps posting. Evolutionary psychology bollocks about women all lying about scarcity and then relentlessly putting out is not that rare, but it's not usually quite so utterly pompous, verbose and lacking in self-awareness. We've all seen Bugs Bunny in drag, but how often do you see Elmer Fudd masquerading as David Attenborough?

Encore!

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13 minutes ago, Amina Sopwith said:

It doesn't bother me. I didn't even realise I'd spoken to him before, that's how much of an impression he made. I'm not going to return the favour though. I sincerely hope he keeps posting. Evolutionary psychology bollocks about women all lying about scarcity and then relentlessly putting out is not that rare, but it's not usually quite so utterly pompous, verbose and lacking in self-awareness. We've all seen Bugs Bunny in drag, but how often do you see Elmer Fudd masquerading as David Attenborough?

Encore!

Now I have Attenborough's voice describing the scene at an SL club running through my mind . . . thanks for that.

I am going to say something further that is probably going to not be very popular. (Somewhere out there, Maddy is burying her face in her hands.)

I really do, honestly and truly, believe that most men who post here are generally supportive of women. The really egregious sexism I occasionally see here emanates, really, from a small handful of voices. What Beth said above about really loving men applies to me as well, and to you and other women here.

But I'm actually genuinely disappointed, and maybe even a little angry, that I'm not hearing those supportive male voices here.

I am really more than a little upset that men will pop in here to take me and other women here to task for not being "welcoming" to men, without saying so much as a word about nonsense like this:

On 11/15/2019 at 7:41 PM, operationhammerman said:

Disbanding the misandrist forum knitting circle might be a start...

Failing that, LL should at the very least lock down or remove the "I hate life" thread, IMO. Any male newcomers reading that would probably conclude that SL is just a hive for female hysteria. 

So, you're upset that I joked that women were being characterized, ridiculously, as though they were knitting during the guillotining of aristocrats during the Terror . . . but you apparently see nothing wrong -- certainly nothing to comment on -- about this?

So, hey guys. I do want SL to be more welcoming for men. I am interested in ways of accomplishing that.

How about demonstrating a little reciprocity, and voicing some support for the women here, instead of passing over in silence the blatant misogyny that's popped up in this thread? How about focusing less on the angry response of the women to this misogynist garbage, and a little more on the crap that provoked it?

Where are you, men? Seriously.

 

Edited by Scylla Rhiadra
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5 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

How about demonstrating a little reciprocity, and voicing some support for the women here, instead of passing over in silence the blatant misogyny that's popped up in this thread? How about focusing less on the angry response of the women to this misogynist garbage, and a little more on the crap that provoked it?

Where are you, men? Seriously.

Hence my response to Skell Dagger, upthread.

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IMO no change required I was expecting full on keyboard confrontation and a locked thread like the time when I talked about heritability of IQ (It's heritable science proved it)

As I said, P2D ratio is good and people just need to greet each other via clicking more and not open conversations with 'Hi". There's bound to be people who don't like women or people who don't like men in SL, and those two groups as usual are trying to spin small issues into a big one like they represent everyone else who don't come to the forums. I think both of aforementioned groups are sad people and although I hold zero responsibility for those two groups being grumpy permanently and bases personal success on keyboard arguments on facebook or other social media proclaiming change, I would like to say

We don't live in disneyland, there's bound to be people who will not like you, so get over it.

Edited by iamyourneighbour

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13 minutes ago, Caerolle Llewellyn said:

Hence my response to Skell Dagger, upthread.

I'm sorry, Caer! I somehow missed your post. You said essentially what I said, but better.

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5 minutes ago, iamyourneighbour said:

As I said, P2D ratio is good and people just need to greet each other via clicking more and not open conversations with 'Hi".

I neither like you, nor dislike you. I don't care very much about you at all, to be honest.

But I would very much like you to stop throwing degrading and sexist terms like "P2D" around here, please. They are insulting, and you know it.

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2 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I'm sorry, Caer! I somehow missed your post. You said essentially what I said, but better.

You said it fine, and everything else far better, as I am trying to just let you and Amina respond, as my responses would likely be far less reasoned and measured.~

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3 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I neither like you, nor dislike you. I don't care very much about you at all, to be honest.

But I would very much like you to stop throwing degrading and sexist terms like "P2D" around here, please. They are insulting, and you know it.

I never said what they stand for you are just projecting and strawmanning. Why are you trying to incite forum wars?

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While the other side has ample time and is typing up thesis response,this is what dear Scylla is doing:

Talks about gender issues to bait out the hard line misogynist and misandrist then try to drag people who are otherwise neutral into the war, Scylla, I would like to let you know humans do not separate into mere two categories and you are dehumanizing them by putting them into two categories. 

Then after people who are neutral leave the conversation because they have things to do, work to go to, kids to look after you say 'ha I win they ran away'

Then when you run out valid points you will resolve to pick on grammar mistakes. Your strategy is to wait long enough for other side to leave. 

You may think there is a gender war, like fringe members of the society thinking there is a 'race war'. Well there isn't. Stop trying to divide people. 

Edited by iamyourneighbour
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10 minutes ago, Conall DeCuir said:

I left when this was mentioned the 2nd time. It's just getting old.

I quit arguing several threads ago.  Several avatars will tag team you.  In one wave, several different avatars disingenuously misconstrue your words into some point that you never made,  The next wave will disingenuously reiterate and amplify the misconstruction.   The third wave will denigrate you for holding an opinion you never held or even remotely hinted.  It’s like twitter where people pile on condemning a book they’ve never read. 

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55 minutes ago, iamyourneighbour said:

I never said what they [P2D] stand for you are just projecting and strawmanning. Why are you trying to incite forum wars?

Awww, c'mon. Just because you didn't spell out kittehs to Richards doesn't mean someone is projecting or strawmanning. Strawmanning is talking about a different subject because you can't win on the original topic, so you pivot. Several people called the P2D out specifically, and said why, so... no strawman. It's a crude little saying, but you know exactly why you said it (could it be to incite)?

Meanwhile... I guess "the men" are speaking in this thread?

Edited by Seicher Rae
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1 minute ago, Seicher Rae said:

Awww, c'mon. Just because you didn't spell out kittehs to Richards doesn't mean someone is projecting or strawmanning. Strawmanning is talking about a different subject because you can't win on the original topic, so you pivot. Several people called the P2D out specifically, and said why, so... no strawman. It's a crude little saying, but you know exactly why you said it (could it be to incite)?

Meanwhile...

Good try with that no U. Lets wait for Scylla's thesis first.

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30 minutes ago, Conall DeCuir said:

I left when this [misogyny] was mentioned the 2nd time. It's just getting old.

I can't blame you for that, honestly, it gets a bit old for me, too. Seriously. I understand and even sympathise with both sides of the comments, and disagree as well. Kinda out in the middle of a corn field...

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Quote

 

One half of the potential playerbase grew up building with legos and pretending to shoot toy soldiers at each other, the other half grew up dressing up barbies and hosting tea parties with Mr Bunny. The rest of the video game market caters for some types of sandboxing far better than others, and SL is pretty crap at those high-supply types. As a result, the kind of sandboxing SL offers is pretty noticeably gender weighted.

 

 

 

^ This is one type of gender assumption that's getting in the way of a thoughtful answer to the original post question.

Quote

 

As I said, P2D ratio is good and people just need to greet each other via clicking more and not open conversations with 'Hi". There's bound to be people who don't like women or people who don't like men in SL, and those two groups as usual are trying to spin small issues into a big one like they represent everyone else who don't come to the forums. I think both of aforementioned groups are sad people and although I hold zero responsibility for those two groups being grumpy permanently and bases personal success on keyboard arguments on facebook or other social media proclaiming change, I would like to say

We don't live in disneyland, there's bound to be people who will not like you, so get over it.

 

^ This is another.

I played with both Legos and Barbies when I was a kid.  I enjoy building in SL and dressing up my avatar. Sometimes I like SL sex. More often I'm not in the mood for that. I usually like to help newbies, but I don't like random IMs that just say "Hi". I fill out my profile to show some of my interests ans what kind of person I am. I appreciate it when other people do the same. I try to make my avatar attractive or unusual (if I'm not in an attracting mood). I appreciate it when others do the same. I'm not in SL just to hook up for cartoon sex, but I can't help evaluating guys now and then as potential "RP partners". 

Men, women or however else people want to self-identify are not all the same & don't want always the same things, but if you know what your goals are in SL, then there are tools you can use to help advance those goals. 

If you want to hook up for cartoon sex, then make your avatar attractive to the kinds of players you want to attract and go to the kinds of sims where like minded people are likely to hang out. If you want to attract creative and interesting people, then show by your words and behavior that you're creative and interesting. If you want to build, find groups that help builders. If you want more clothing choices, join groups and read blogs that point to the types of clothes you want AND support the creators you like with your money. The same goes for clubs and sims of all kinds. SL is not free for creators, yet there is still so much free and inexpensive stuff available that it's ridiculous to complain that there are not enough choices.  There's plenty of nice men's clothing. If you don't see it, you're not looking hard enough or not taking advice when its offered. 

If you can't seem to find the kind of people you like, then likewise you're not looking in the right places or not taking advice that's been offered. 

Edited by Persephone Emerald
Edit for grammer
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3 minutes ago, iamyourneighbour said:

Good try with that no U. Lets wait for Scylla's thesis first.

Huh? Could you say that in English?

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44 minutes ago, iamyourneighbour said:
1 minute ago, Seicher Rae said:

Huh? Could you say that in English?

Then when you run out valid points you will resolve to pick on grammar mistakes. Your strategy is to wait long enough for other side to leave. 

Thank you for proving my point. Didn't need a lot of work.

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