New Gacha Policy Discussion

[Silent Mistwalker]

59 minutes ago, Mollymews said:

is a herd of shoes a shoe of shoes ?

😸

I think that would be a plethora of shoes. 🤭

Edited August 6, 2021 by Silent Mistwalker

[Rowan Amore]

5 minutes ago, Teagan Tobias said:

 

To me, the “conveyor belt” thing makes gacha look like child's play. Having your mark locked in knowing the next one will be the big one would be like a dream come true. IMHO

Sure, after having to purchase 5or 6 things you don't want, dream come true.  At least with a gacha, that first purchase might be the one you want.  Basically, a vendor where you have to buy items you don't want to be able to buy what you do want.  

Back to my analogy about wanting to buy a toaster at Walmart but them making me buy a coffee maker, tea pot and microwave when all I want is a toaster.  Sell me the dang toaster ffs.  But I guess they wouldn't make as much money.

[Silent Mistwalker]

43 minutes ago, CelestineDemetria said:

"A Wolf in Sheep's Clothing"

 

Hey! Watch that stuff! 😛

 

[Komarimono]

8 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

 

Now try competing with a bot watching the vendor and triggering based on the UUID of the texture change.

Good luck walking away with a hard earned rare !

Ya...  I've already seen bots similar to that at shopping events already.

4 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Sure, after having to purchase 5or 6 things you don't want, dream come true.  At least with a gacha, that first purchase might be the one you want.  Basically, a vendor where you have to buy items you don't want to be able to buy what you do want.  

Back to my analogy about wanting to buy a toaster at Walmart but them making me buy a coffee maker, tea pot and microwave when all I want is a toaster.  Sell me the dang toaster ffs.  But I guess they wouldn't make as much money.

Bingo.  Patch needs to really word it better to their legal team on this matter, on the cause and effect to be truly sure.  This would still be considered Illegal in the places where Gacha are already banned.

[Rowan Amore]

6 minutes ago, Komarimono said:

Ya...  I've already seen bots similar to that at shopping events already.

Bingo.  Patch needs to really word it better to their legal team on this matter, on the cause and effect to be truly sure.  This would still be considered Illegal in the places where Gacha are already banned.

Lordy, I sure hope Wal-Mart isn't watching this thread and I don't need a toaster any time soon.  😅😆

If they really want to take randomness and chance out of the equation they could do like they do with Epiphany.  If you buy this many items in this group (all visible), you earn a point for each one that you can then use to purchase this rare item.  That way, no one gets suck with the lavender or pale peach dress.  I can buy the colors I would wear.  

Edited August 6, 2021 by Rowan Amore

[MoiraKathleen]

I have not played very many gachas at all in the past several years, and the few times that I have, it's been at a H&G store, where there was a display version of the item rezzed to try out, and there were not any rares - just a selection of different fabrics on a lawn chair for example, or different color trim on a beach cabana or a shotgun house - and I didn't really have any personal preferences about the different patterns or colors offered.   Outside of that, there have been a couple of times in the past year when I've been out exploring or on a hunt, and happened to come across a gacha resell store or yard sale, and I've stopped to take a look and picked up an item or two that were rezzed out and caught my eye. 

So I don't really think the removal of gachas and the introduction of the 'conveyor belt'  will impact my way of purchasing things at all.  I'm somewhat curious to see what this 'conveyor belt' idea might look like when it materializes and makes its introduction in world, but at the same time I'm hoping that I won't come across them at the places where I normally shop, and I don't think I would try it, even if I did see one.  I don't have the lindens available for just "shopping to shop" that I used to when I first started, so I am more mindful and picky these days about what I actually buy, when I do decide to purchase something.

[LittleMe Jewell]

3 hours ago, Elyssa Artis said:

2. Machine could be scripted to stay locked to the previous buyer for 30seconds to give them first option at the next up item.

That ties the purchase directly to a random item again, so I'm not sure that part will be allowed.  Because then the buyer really is buying the item and the random roll.

 

[Coffee Pancake]

Dear Lindy Labs. The new gachas keep eating my money and not giving me anything. I tried to complain but just got shouted about lag and told I should stay logged in and wait for it to catch up. I've been here hours and I'm afraid to go to bed.

[Arwyn Quandry]

Has Patch address whether the "conveyor" system items can be transfer or not? I didn't see that specifically mentioned in the post. 

[Angelina Sinclair]

Quote

Q:  Could a “conveyor belt” system work?  

Example:  The vendor board selects an item at random and displays it for purchase.  That item remains on display and available for purchase until a buyer touches the vendor which locks it to them for purchase.  This allowed the buyer to purchase the item and deliver it.  The vendor unlocks and then selects another item at random and displays it for purchase and the cycle repeats.

Example image here and credit to Nadi Vemo for the approved vendor design.

A:  Yes, as long as the item currently being purchased is known. Note however that you should discontinue the use of the “gacha” term for these sales. 

 

This is a terrible idea and will probably get LL nailed with a fine or something from governments. I also do not like this idea at all. I don't care what I can see is available for purchase even if you showed me the next 10 items in a sequence. The reseller will come in and buy it all up if they see a rare.

If there isn't a rare or popular color they will go away and wait for someone else to drop some lindens into it and check back later and if they see something valuable, they'll buy it up again. In the end, the reseller will greatly win out of this while the casual player will definitely NOT get any of the rare items.

By it's nature alone it is worse than current gacha cause at least everyone had the same random chances. Now it is rigged in favor for resellers.

 

This entire thing should be put to rest and die. I am sorry, try a new business models. Plenty of stores and vendors out there selling well with fatpacks and such. Join new events and fairs that cater to your products themes. Run your own events, do something but get off the gacha train, it is ending time to face the music.

 

 

[LittleMe Jewell]

14 hours ago, Elyssa Artis said:

Nope, the way they say it's okay is you will have to know the color you are getting. Other things like tails and ears can be random, but color/coat will have to be known.

I don't think so.  It sounds like 'all the stuff that you see' that could be random must be known at the time of purchase.  The stuff that is normally hidden can stay hidden and the results of breeding don't matter at all.

If a particular breedable only varies in color/coat, then yes your statement is true.

In the case of KittyCats, the 'traits' that can be random on a cat are:
  Fur, Eyes, Eye Shape, Eye Pupil, Shade, Tail, Ears, Whiskers Color, Whiskers Shape. 
  Size is also random, though not referred to as a breedable trait.

For the regular starter kitties, we currently pick the gender only.  Since the starter kitties all have 'starter' traits and are all 'normal' size, the only thing not know at purchase time is the Fur and the Eyes -- there are currently 5 starter furs and 5 starter eyes (there is only one 'starter' version of each of the other traits).  So that makes 25 possible combinations for the starter kitties - for each gender. 

Based on my understanding of the FAQ, each of those 25 combinations, per gender, would need to be purchased in its own vendor - i.e. we pick exactly which fur & eye & gender we want in the starter - rather than just picking gender like we do now.

Similar issues with the various Collection kitties - they all have costumes that are usually random and they all have 'starter traits' as their dominant non-hidden traits (though, because the 'costume' is showing, the underlying dominant traits might not need to be known).  Size is also usually random on the Collection cats.

Edited August 6, 2021 by LittleMe Jewell

[LittleMe Jewell]

3 hours ago, Elyssa Artis said:

^ This is what was posted. Color has to be known.

That is what they posted, but I'm pretty sure you are interpreting it wrong.  The color was an example.  It is not JUST color, but anything & everything 'at the root level" (i.e. the display traits) that normally can be random.

 

@Patch Linden - Please read this and my post directly above this where I give a more solid example. Then maybe add a tad more detail to the FAQ about the breedables and correct me if my interpretation is wrong.

Edited August 6, 2021 by LittleMe Jewell

[LittleMe Jewell]

24 minutes ago, Arwyn Quandry said:

Has Patch address whether the "conveyor" system items can be transfer or not? I didn't see that specifically mentioned in the post. 

Since it is a 'known' item and not random (like fishing prizes), Transfer should be okay. No different than purchasing a Transfer item from a regular vendor.

[Delilah Mercury]

The conveyor system sounds actively worse and will turn me off of patronizing creators even harder than gacha does specifically because it's such a non-solution to the problem.  It's still exploitative because you have to buy a bunch of items you don't want to get the one you do.

Feels uncomfortably like laws requiring lootboxes to stick odds on them.  It's not technically gambling now because look, you know what the odds of getting a thing are!  Only here you know for 100% certainty you'll get a single item once.  It's not a fix, it's a workaround.

Edited August 6, 2021 by Delilah Mercury

[Mollymews]

3 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Rollers with a lock in to prevent sniping are WORSE than gachas. 

if there is a worse part about conveyor machines, it is that overall the players will make 1 more payment to secure a rare than they would with a traditional gacha machine

this thought is based on how conveyors will typically get scripted

1) There is a common in the window

2) I touch the machine.  I am now the player

3) I make a payment. I get the common

4) There is a rare in the window

5) I make a payment. I get the rare

6) There is a common in the window

7) I stop playing

8 ) Next person comes along

9) There is a common in the window

[AmyBlackwood]

1 hour ago, Angelina Sinclair said:

 

This is a terrible idea and will probably get LL nailed with a fine or something from governments.

 

 

From which governments? Not even Belgium law defines the conveyor belt vendor as gambling. You can't be punished for following the letter of the law even if it circumvents the spirit of the law.

[Rei Waifu]

How on earth and all other realms did LL come to the conclusion that conveyor belt systems would be a good idea to allow?

If your trying to get rid of gachas and all they encompass due to the legal ban around lootboxes, then don't green light something 100x worse that uses the same elements of randomness but also adds in even more ways for creators to screw over their customers.

 

[Angelina Sinclair]

14 minutes ago, AmyBlackwood said:

From which governments? Not even Belgium law defines the conveyor belt vendor as gambling. You can't be punished for following the letter of the law even if it circumvents the spirit of the law.

The Netherland laws would deem them illegal if the prizes have a market value and since gachas generally do have market value because you can resell them, then they would get hit with fines.

Just because the RNG numbers have been displayed for the next 5 slots doesn't remove the gambling aspects of it. The gambler will just be eyeing the 5th slot and feed lindens into the machine waiting for that epic rare to drop in the 5th slot.

[KrystalKandy]

I was chatting to someone about this earlier and they made a very valid point about why this would not be ideal at all. 

Q:  Could a “conveyor belt” system work?  

Example:  The vendor board selects an item at random and displays it for purchase.  That item remains on display and available for purchase until a buyer touches the vendor which locks it to them for purchase.  This allowed the buyer to purchase the item and deliver it.  The vendor unlocks and then selects another item at random and displays it for purchase and the cycle repeats.

If the vendor locks for that one person to buy the chosen item. Then you end up with a possible queue of people waiting to access that machine. What happens when someone standing there clicks it then goes afk for an hour (we all know this happens constantly in sl lol). Are we going to actually consider implementing virtual waiting lines like we have in rl, when we shop? 

Edited August 6, 2021 by KrystalKandy

[Mollymews]

16 minutes ago, KrystalKandy said:

What happens when someone standing there clicks it then goes afk for an hour

scripts will most likely give the player some small time to pay the machine. When the machine is not paid in the time then it will reset. And anyone else can touch to become the player

[Alwin Alcott]

6 hours ago, Shirley Marquez said:

Also for the land rental to put the machines on.

that land an be used for the normal vendors now... and attrackt even more people, IF the former G creators/uploaders get less greedy.

[Alwin Alcott]

just in short :
Q will a customer suffer by the end of this selling tactic
A no, they will be able to buy the item they really want from the start

Q2 will all creators/uploaders offer a normal vendor service
A2 no, some will go on the edge of the current change and have the risk to get in trouble after the grace period ends

Q3 is it bad that creators/uploaders get penalties after the grace period?
A3 no, they chose that path

[Vihmakass]

If breedables are allowed with condition that root level traits are known when you buy it.....then why not make breedable outfits or smth similar to it?

Like you buy pink dress /nc,nm,t/ and green dress /nc,nm,t/and shop provides free? box/hud where you put your dresses and get third dress with random traits ( maybe with pink and green stripes or green with pink dots or green with pink flowers) with same nc, nm,t. Make outfits breed only once and if you want you can not breed them just wear how they are.

Make some "parent" dresses be cheaper some costly. Maybe some have frills, some have laces, some are long, some short , some with sleeves some without...there is endless options - same way like with cats.

Only dif will be that you loose "parents" to get "child" and "child" isnt breedable  one. So what you buy is known and IF you want smth random - you "breed" aka combine.

I think that would sell well if "child" stays no copy, no mod, transfer. People can sell then ones what they dont like or combinations what are more rare - same like with cats.

Maker then only needs make basic ones and have box/hud with script / for free or for some lindens/

Random moment comes then to buyer- if they want it they make it if not - dress is wearable without it too.

 

Edited August 6, 2021 by Vihmakass

[Marianne Little]

5 hours ago, Viche Hexem said:

Heyyyyy, so it turns out the convey belt system IS okay! Funny that's what I thought would end up being okay all those posts ago, now lets get to discussing the finer points of how to make the conveyor system work: what potential issues might it have and how might we solve them?

/me shrugs

Everybody knows that the bad guy wins sometimes.

/me sighs and go on with life

[PhoebeDesmons]

Hi there. Opening my mouth  on this subject as a creator and having helped start and run a gacha event for some years. 

Gacha's were fine in the beginning prior to events. When it was a rare treat to stumble over them or fun to make them. 

Organized events, and large groups of people is where it lead to unprofessionalism, drama, aggressive competition and pettiness. 

I never depended on the machines or events, so I de-commissioned my machines as soon as I heard the news because I didn't want to deal with panic buying or scalpers especially if I release my content again. I do NOT want to leave a bad taste in my customers mouths with this transition. 

With that being said. I absolutely do not support any randomized vendors. Even IF you can see what you are buying. Can you imagine people scrambling for a machine that shows a rare up-coming? Or people entirely avoiding a machine because everyone refused to buy one undesirable object? Or sims lagging and people losing the money or the object?

We can do better than this. Do hunts, do gifts, lucky chairs, midnight madness, do tokens you trade in for an event only item, do limited editions do craftables. Do anything but make the customer feel like we are trying to squeeze money.  Bring back avatar release events. 

Raise the price. Let them buy what they want.