'Banned' while flying at Bellisseria

[Kathlen Onyx]

3 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

What does the sky alert do? Does it eject trespassers, or is it just an alert where it tells the owner that someone is up there?

Even if it ejects people up there, it's still not good enough, because a home owner might want more flexibility than that; i.e. protection for one or more skyboxes when the home protection is turned off.

How many prims do you have in a LL house that you can have one of more skyboxes up there? LL homes are not really made for all that.

[Phil Deakins]

6 minutes ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

How many prims do you have in a LL house that you can have one of more skyboxes up there? LL homes are not really made for all that.

I am sure it has more than enough that a home-owner could have a workshop up there, plus a private place for doing private things. No problem

So I take it that the alert merely tells the home-owner that someone is up there. It seems a bit useless to me.

 

Edited May 16, 2021 by Phil Deakins

[LittleMe Jewell]

5 minutes ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

How many prims do you have in a LL house that you can have one of more skyboxes up there? LL homes are not really made for all that.

There are quite a few houses that are completely empty and people only using skyboxes.  In those cases, I could see someone having a couple of them.

[Sid Nagy]

Why bother to have a  Bellisseria home in a nice\ beautiful environment when you leave it empty to be only up in the sky to do tha thing?
Beats me.

Edited May 16, 2021 by Sid Nagy

[LittleMe Jewell]

2 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

Why bother for a Bellisseria home when you leave it empty to be only up in the sky to do tha thing?
Beats me.

Some people do it because they don't have to buy the parcel.

While my Linden Homes are furnished, I still prefer the sky most of the time because there is far less lag.  People love to furnish their homes with lots of very heavy mesh that is also often overloaded with textures, thus making the ground very laggy.

Edited May 16, 2021 by LittleMe Jewell

[Phil Deakins]

People often like to have a nice home on the ground, and somewhere private up above. Also, many people prefer to live reasonably privately up above and leave the ground clear.

Why bother having a Bellisseria home etc, you ask. Why not? is my reply. It beats buying a piece of land, especially when the piece could end up with poor neighbors - banlines or eyesores.

[Kathlen Onyx]

15 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

So I take it that the alert merely tells the home-owner that someone is up there. It seems a bit useless to me.

 

I haven't used it in the sky. It's very easy to test. Take an alt and see what happens. Then you'd have your answer.

[Phil Deakins]

I would, but I don't have a premium account, let alone a place in Bellisseria

I'm only in this thread because of security devices, which I create and sell, and I am an SL user, of course.

[Sid Nagy]

26 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Some people do it because they don't have to buy the parcel.

While my Linden Homes are furnished, I still prefer the sky most of the time because there is far less lag.  People love to furnish their homes with lots of very heavy mesh that is also often overloaded with textures, thus making the ground very laggy.

The log home sims are beautiful but a total lag fest. The moles overdid the scenery there.
And they are not shy in using 1024 x 1024 textures. That is true.

Edited May 16, 2021 by Sid Nagy

[Rowan Amore]

25 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Some people do it because they don't have to buy the parcel.

While my Linden Homes are furnished, I still prefer the sky most of the time because there is far less lag.  People love to furnish their homes with lots of very heavy mesh that is also often overloaded with textures, thus making the ground very laggy.

A friend of mine recently got a traditional home.  He didn't even bother looking at ground level since he prefers to use sky boxes and changes things up every other week.  He has that and another level a simple outdoor area.  He got tired of having to move around mainland, trying to avoid lag monsters.  

[Istelathis]

1 hour ago, Rowan Amore said:

A friend of mine recently got a traditional home.  He didn't even bother looking at ground level since he prefers to use sky boxes and changes things up every other week.  He has that and another level a simple outdoor area.  He got tired of having to move around mainland, trying to avoid lag monsters.  

I more or less do the same thing, my yard has a few trees, grass and flowers.  The thing I do differently, is all of the furnishings set to a rezzer that will furnish my house when I am within 100 yards.  I then have three platforms I can teleport to, which likewise have a similar rezzer setup for each of my skyboxes.  When I'm away, my property has no more than 48LI   The lag can get pretty bad on the ground level, so I spend most of my time in the skybox. 

Back on topic, I have no security orb, I rarely even see people near my home and almost never see people flying around.  There just is no need for me, I have never been harassed in SL.  When I first joined SL three years ago, I was excited at the opportunity to explore the world, and thought flying and boating would be amazing.  It did not take long before I learned it was not worth the trouble, which is a shame because there are so many talented people out there that have built amazing areas.  I grew slightly resentful toward the security orbs, because I think a lot of people use them to grief others - especially after a few of the automated messages I received from them.  I know they serve a purpose, but I have to question if most of the time people just enjoy being mean to others.  I love that Bellisseria has rules in place that prevent people from spoiling others from an enjoyable flight or boat trip through the continent.

Edited May 16, 2021 by Istelathis

[Garnet Psaltery]

7 hours ago, Garnet Psaltery said:

This is what can happen when you have a friend visiting and you have to deal with RL for a while.  Unless you add all your friends to your security admin they are left with the only option being to tp away or log out while being harassed (if they're new they might not even think how to do that).  It doesn't contribute to a relaxing atmosphere.

 

1 hour ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

Realistically though how often does this even happen?  How many times have you been away from your computer doing RL things and your friend has been at your place and they have been bothered?  Once? Twice?

I find all this "security" talk amusing. As someone else said no one can move your objects and if you don't want your furniture used when you are not online then set it to owner only. Make sure your parcel is set to restrict voice and chat to your parcel as well as unclick "avatars on other parcels can see and chat with avatars on this parcel" Keep all voice chats out of local and you are good.

 

I was replying to another comment by giving an example of a particular situation that is unacceptable to me.  I am not going to give you the information you seem to want because you have already made up your mind that it is worthless, and I take your question as rhetorical.  Bear in mind though, that I am only one person and you cannot know how many others have been in this position.  Furthermore, I have said elsewhere that there other reasons for wanting security (which did not form part of the particular situation I was describing).  I'd expand on that but I have no wish to give you another reason for amusement.

[Kathlen Onyx]

6 minutes ago, Garnet Psaltery said:

 

I was replying to another comment by giving an example of a particular situation that is unacceptable to me.  I am not going to give you the information you seem to want because you have already made up your mind that it is worthless, and I take your question as rhetorical.  Bear in mind though, that I am only one person and you cannot know how many others have been in this position.  Furthermore, I have said elsewhere that there other reasons for wanting security (which did not form part of the particular situation I was describing).  I'd expand on that but I have no wish to give you another reason for amusement.

I was simply replying. LOL

[Jaylinbridges]

2 hours ago, Phil Deakins said:

What does the sky alert do? Does it eject trespassers, or is it just an alert where it tells the owner that someone is up there?

Even if it ejects people up there, it's still not good enough, because a home owner might want more flexibility than that; i.e. protection for one or more skyboxes when the home protection is turned off.

Sky Alert:  Sky Alert will notify you in chat if someone has been in your parcel and within 1000m of your position for at least 15 seconds. It can only be activated in a skybox above 2000m.

LH security systems are free and copy.  If you want security in your skybox, you must add one to your skybox.  It already adjusts for your altitude, hence adds the sky alert option only in skyboxes.  Each LS Security System uses One LI.

You can easily adjust the detection limits for a skybox.  For instance, here are my settings, from their menu:

You may adjust the Security System's upper and lower detection limits. 

    This system is now  3902m above sea level. 

    The upper limit is now 4002m 
    The lower limit is now 3877m

I also have the LH system installed at my Stilt House at sea level, but I have no reason to ever turn it on.  I have a large hungry sea mammal swimming under my house, and if you peee on my deck while visiting it will have you for lunch.

 

 

 

Edited May 16, 2021 by Jaylinbridges

[Sid Nagy]

1 hour ago, Istelathis said:

I more or less do the same thing, my yard has a few trees, grass and flowers.  The thing I do differently, is all of the furnishings set to a rezzer that will furnish my house when I am within 100 yards.  I then have three platforms I can teleport to, which likewise have a similar rezzer setup for each of my skyboxes.  When I'm away, my property has no more than 48LI   The lag can get pretty bad on the ground level, so I spend most of my time in the skybox. 

Back on topic, I have no security orb, I rarely even see people near my home and almost never see people flying around.  There just is no need for me, I have never been harassed in SL.  When I first joined SL three years ago, I was excited at the opportunity to explore the world, and thought flying and boating would be amazing.  It did not take long before I learned it was not worth the trouble, which is a shame because there are so many talented people out there that have built amazing areas.  I grew slightly resentful toward the security orbs, because I think a lot of people use them to grief others - especially after a few of the automated messages I received from them.  I know they serve a purpose, but I have to question if most of the time people just enjoy being mean to others.  I love that Bellisseria has rules in place that prevent people from spoiling others from an enjoyable flight or boat trip through the continent.

I always thought that temp rezzers are one of the reasons for a laggy environment.

[Rolig Loon]

5 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

I always thought that temp rezzers are one of the reasons for a laggy environment.

They are, but that's not what Isthelatis is describing.  The nasty temp rezzers you are thinking of will create a object with the temp_on_rez flag set, so that they vanish without a minute or so, over and over and over again.  It's an insensitive way to try and get around a parcel's prim limit.  By repeatedly rezzing things every minute, it creates lag for the entire region.  That's why temp-rezzers are not allowed in Bellisseria (and many other parts of SL).

[Istelathis]

56 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

I always thought that temp rezzers are one of the reasons for a laggy environment.

I have mine set to a 40 second delay, it will scan for avatars much like a security orb would and if I am in the vicinity it rezzes my objects.  I have it set to only recognize me, so it will not rezz for everyone that comes close to it.   When I leave the parcel, all of the objects get deleted after the rezzer finds I am no longer in the area.  I would think it produces less lag than an orb would as those tend to scan far more frequently.  The objects that are rezzed do listen on a channel for instructions from the rezzer though, I'm not sure if while they are rezzed if they would produce very much lag.  Typically though, I am not at my home so the only activity going on in my parcel, are a series of four scans being performed every 40 seconds.  

I think it may actually have the added bonus of producing less lag, because people will not have to download all of the textures, objects, and so on when they pass by my home as I am usually off elsewhere
 

Edited May 16, 2021 by Istelathis
Changed interval time, it is 40 seconds not 45

[Phil Deakins]

2 hours ago, Rolig Loon said:

They are, but that's not what Isthelatis is describing.  The nasty temp rezzers you are thinking of will create a object with the temp_on_rez flag set, so that they vanish without a minute or so, over and over and over again.  It's an insensitive way to try and get around a parcel's prim limit.  By repeatedly rezzing things every minute, it creates lag for the entire region.  That's why temp-rezzers are not allowed in Bellisseria (and many other parts of SL).

Every ~minute or so, temp rezzers that let the system remove the items have more than one of each item rezzed simultaneously, and, if you sit on one of them, they'll have three rezzed simultaneously. That makes them more laggy.

The reason is that they have to make sure that the fresh item is already rezzed before the old one is removed by the system. So for a short time, there are 2 of them. But if you sit on one, the system won't remove it, and you end up with 3 of them rezzed for a short time each ~minute. You don't see them though because they occupy exactly the same space so it looks as if there is only one there.

I know these things because I made and sold a temp rezzer a long time ago

Edited May 16, 2021 by Phil Deakins

[Eddy Vortex]

8 hours ago, Sid Nagy said:

Why bother to have a  Bellisseria home in a nice\ beautiful environment when you leave it empty to be only up in the sky to do tha thing?
Beats me.

1) Modern mesh with low LI makes it possible to have free LI leftover after I finish with decorating the ground.

2) With the leftover LI allotment, I can build another household in the sky where my homeless friends will have a place to crash, and my alts won't have to squat in sandboxes anymore.

3) Because I can.

To stay on topic, I don't use security orbs and never will.  People are free to wander in both my Linden houses and even help themselves to some food in the kitchen.

There are times I have to fish a lost plane or car out of my waters because someone fell victim to an overzealous orb.  My sympathies are with them.  I am more irate at orb owners for tossing their victims from their vehicles.  What good does that do?  It's not like they can rearrange the furniture and some such.  

 

[Phil Deakins]

3 hours ago, Eddy Vortex said:

There are times I have to fish a lost plane or car out of my waters because someone fell victim to an overzealous orb.  My sympathies are with them.  I am more irate at orb owners for tossing their victims from their vehicles.  What good does that do?  It's not like they can rearrange the furniture and some such.  

With a minimum of 15 second to move on from a Bellisseria parcel, anyone that that happens to doesn't merit any sympathy because that's what they chose to happen. It's their doing.

[Phil Deakins]

14 hours ago, Istelathis said:

I have mine set to a 40 second delay, it will scan for avatars much like a security orb would and if I am in the vicinity it rezzes my objects.  I have it set to only recognize me, so it will not rezz for everyone that comes close to it.   When I leave the parcel, all of the objects get deleted after the rezzer finds I am no longer in the area.  I would think it produces less lag than an orb would as those tend to scan far more frequently.  The objects that are rezzed do listen on a channel for instructions from the rezzer though, I'm not sure if while they are rezzed if they would produce very much lag.  Typically though, I am not at my home so the only activity going on in my parcel, are a series of four scans being performed every 40 seconds.  

I think it may actually have the added bonus of producing less lag, because people will not have to download all of the textures, objects, and so on when they pass by my home as I am usually off elsewhere
 

On the whole, that arrangement would produce less lag for passers-by because there is less data for them to download.

Whether or not it is much less laggy, due to scanning, than other security devices is perhaps debatable. I have made security devices for many years and they have never scanned more frequently than every 5 seconds. If I've understood your post correctly, yours scans every 10 seconds. It's twice as much but, in terms of system resources, the difference is barely noticeable, and wouldn't contribute noticeably to lag, imo.

I don't know the scan frequency of other security devices though.

[Marianne Little]

18 hours ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

How many prims do you have in a LL house that you can have one of more skyboxes up there? LL homes are not really made for all that.

It's possible. I was lucky enough to decorate a Houseboat and a Victorian in a "Showcase" region a while ago. I think I was the only one with a fully decorated Houseboat that had both a 46 Li sailboat permanently rezzed in front and a skybox.

The Houseboat had a big kitchen with a breakfast bar, large dinner table and a spacious sofa, and a small bath. The skybox had a bed, a hot tub, a fireplace and a large TV. Not that I ever watch TV in SL, but I had it there because I wanted to show how you could have a private hideout in the sky. I should post pictures but I think I had them on another PC - I always lose pictures because I am too stupid to store them in the Cloud or something.

[Yukiko Yeshto]

8 hours ago, Phil Deakins said:

With a minimum of 15 second to move on from a Bellisseria parcel, anyone that that happens to doesn't merit any sympathy because that's what they chose to happen. It's their doing.

If the parcel with the orb is close to a sim border, it can happen that with the delay while crossing the orb has already detected the avatar but the avatar/plane was not able yet to pass by within that time frame. So no, it is not always what they chose to happen. 

[Abnor Mole]

On 5/16/2021 at 3:49 AM, Phil Deakins said:

@Abnor Mole

I'm not keen on the only being allowed to eject rule. The problem with eject is that it plants the trespasser pretty much right outside when the protected area is on the ground, as the Linden Homes are. That's very good from the point of view of an avatar who is intent of being a nuisance, sometimes only after being ejected, but it's not much good for the land-owner.

I know that the owner can then ban the avatar but that doesn't move it far away. Sending it to its Home usually does that, and without any harm to the avatar. In many cases, the avatar wouldn't easily be able to find the place again.

Imo, allowing a minimum of 15 seconds to move on from a Linden Home is more than enough, and those who don't want to move on ought to be sent far away, and not just placed outside.

Also, I see nothing wrong with putting ban lines up for anyone who chooses not to move on when asked/warned to, and given ample time to do so. The lines only appear to that avatar, so it doesn't spoil the neighborhood. I see nothing wrong or negative about using the land's Access system to auto-ban anyone who chooses not to leave. I wouldn't find fault with a rule saying that an auto-ban must not be for more than nnn minutes, but I do find fault with the rule disallowing the auto-use of it.

Since a Bellisseria Linden Home owner is allowed to ban an avatar by hand, and send an avatar to its Home by hand, why is doing those things automatically not allowed? It doesn't make any sense to me. I don't think that the 'eject only' and 'auto-ban' rules were thought about sufficiently.
 

ETA: The problem with not being allowed to auto-ban using the Access system is that the avatar can go straight back in again because it has been placed just outside and not sent to its Home. Then it has another 15 seconds minimum to continue being a nuisance because that's the rule. And it could do that over and over again.

It could be auto-put on a security device's black list but that doesn't help at all because it still must have the continual 15 seconds minimum of being a nuisance over and over again, with only a few seconds delay in between. A black list ought to remove black-listed avatars on sight but it isn't allowed to do that in Bellisseria.

A land owner could either ban the avatar by hand and/or send it Home by hand. But why is it necessary to do that when an auto-ban and/or auto send it Home will do exactly the same thing without being detrimental to the neighborhood in any way whatsoever? Remember that an avatar has plenty of time to move if it wants to. It's only those that choose not to that I am talking about, and they deserve to be auto-banned and/or sent Home.

Maybe part of the problem is always defaulting to coming from the perspective that everyone who triggers a security system has ill intent, rather than assuming ignorance or error before malice is proven to be the case. 

If someone is genuinely being a nuisance the owner of the land can actively ban them. They just cannot have system that automatically bans people from the parcel whether the owner is home or not. If nobody is even on the parcel, how does the owner even know the person actually warrants that aggressive of a response? If they are there and the person has ill intent, it is not difficult to manually ban the person and be done with it. If someone feels they need to ban everyone who enters their parcel in Bellisseria regardless of intent and even when they themselves aren't even there, perhaps Bellisseria isn't the place for them. They might be happier on mainland or a private estate.

We already thought about temporary banning. We already have enough to do that we aren't going to sit for nnn minutes waiting to see if the ban falls off at the prescribed time when someone complains about an orb that doesn't follow the Covenant. We are just going see that it is indeed automatically adding people to the parcel ban list and return it. Which brings up another point. Patch has insinuated before that if dealing with non-compliant security systems becomes too time consuming, we may have to consider a blanket ban of any security devices other than the one we've provided for free. We don't want to do that and neither do many residents and orb creators I would assume, since that is tens of thousands of properties where their products would be be usable.

I'm hoping some of them will see the benefit of making a simple to use system that has better features than ours yet can't be set in a way that breaks the covenant. If something is made in a way that people can use it the wrong way, they will. If they can't set it wrong, then it's less they have to worry about and less complaints we have to deal with. That would actually help preserve Bellisseria as a market for the creators of such devices. 

 

[Phil Deakins]

@Abnor Mole Thank you for your detailed reply, Abnor.

Concerning your discussion about alternative security devices, I made the modifications to my LevelGuard device so that it cannot infringe the Bellisseria covenant. I'll repeat the offer that I made earlier - if anyone who has a Home in Bellisseria wants free LevelGuard, I will give them one, but I would like some feedback about anything concerning Bellisseria that I may have overlooked. It's only available inworld, atm, not in the marketplace.

The only 'ill intent' that a trespasser can have is to be where they are not wanted. In Belliserria, the parcel borders are only ever a few meters away, and with a minimum of 15 second to reach one, which includes reading the first warning, the only avatars that don't leave are those that intend to be where they are not wanted. Imo, such avatars merit a ban (at least for a limited period), and to be sent Home rather than just popped outside so that they can go straight back in for another 15 seconds of 'ill intent'.

It's ok for the owner to send them Home and ban them by hand, so I still don't see any reason why it can't be done automatically. For it to reach that point, the trespasser's intent is clear.

Anyway, I don't live there so it doesn't affect me, but I thought I'd post my views, which I believe make very good sense

 

ETA: If you live in Bellissera and want to take up the offer, IM me inworld or PM me here. It isn't offered for free in my store.

Edited May 18, 2021 by Phil Deakins