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Why BOM? Why?


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1 hour ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

Yes, the intention of Complexity was to put a score on people so it would be easy for you to determine (and optionally not display) avatars that are causing framerate issues in your viewer.

But because of how that score is calculated, it's easy to create bodies and clothing so that it has much lower complexity that intended. Everybody does it. What's worse is that even if you're just ignorant or lazy and aren't trying to do it, you'll probably do it by coincidence. I have a huge spreadsheet of different brands and products (I can link it later) that showcases how jarringly inaccurate Complexity is.

It's an entirely useless number until someone changes it. Black Dragon actually has its own complexity formula and it's much more useful.

Interesting, ty!  So I initially read that as that

some users accidentally,

or incidentally somewhat reverse engineer the complexity formula numbers to,

produce clothing/body items etc. one sells that then show a lower number in Complexity superficially (without really reducing the actual "complexity" of those items).

With all the "changes" in progress it certainly seems a good investment of time to discuss developing that formula.  Just takin up space on my monitors otherwise.

 

And on the BOM or applier thing, I was smirking at first but very quickly learned I had never had it so good. So now a huge BOM fan.  

What does disappoint me about BOM items (not BOM, but BOM items), is that, specific to bodies, we are still in the period where a single seller may have free bodies being in a different BOM category than their demo and/or full-price bodies are.  And also that "BOM" body is used in advertising to describe both full-BOM and partial-BOM bodies. Full- and partial-BOM bodies are substantially different where one flat-out yes uses alpha files no-biggie, and the other does not.  It isn't bad advertising per se, but is just vague enough to be accurate but irksome to users after attempting to set it up.  I've worked with a multitude of users across several great bodies and heads, both new and longtime avis, where just to find out exactly which BOM category "this" body they are wearing is (FULL-PARTIAL-NO BOM) has been neither quick nor easy.  Sellers have been wonderful at responding, but by the time someone like me tries to help users they are generally already days into frustration and ready to bolt or totally over it, etc...

I don't run the world; I wouldn't apply for that job EV-rrr.  But in terms of bodies it seems it would help a good deal if all could settle on three exact terms/definitions that everyone agrees on to describe and define (full, or partial, or no) BOM bodies, and agree to use that term clearly in body advertising.  I mean, clearly, I suppose would help if it were in a body name or ad-picture, and not requiring locating, and reading, a lengthy notecard(s) in a folder.  I cannot imagine there would be any sales "lost" in doing so, and I suspect there might even be a few extra sales made off of lean-and-mean set-ups of free and demo bodies.

 

Happy, safe holidays to all those celebrating this week!

 

Edited by Kyrie Deka
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5 hours ago, Orwar said:

Wondering the same about the Signature bodies ...

5 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

When I updated Gianni (mine's at 5.0 now), I kinda ignored the fact that the existence of a BoM button means it's still lugging around all those dumb underwear, clothing, and tattoo mesh layers, rather than have a separate BoM-only model.

I'm just now realizing how little that "BoM" button actually does.

They already did that, way back. Gianni v4.8 included an additional boxed 'v1.0 Bakes on Mesh test' body that was exactly what you're asking about: a single layer 'native BoM' body with no alpha HUD. They also included a native BoM static head called Davis in that box. Geralt received the same native BoM update and static BoM head in v1.3. That was very soon after BoM was released to the grid, and it was Signature's initial foray into BoM. The BoM 'test' status was changed to 'live' with the releases of Gianni v4.8b and Geralt v1.3a.

That native BoM body was subsequently withdrawn, on Gianni v4.9 and Geralt v1.4, and the BoM activation button was added to the main Gianni and Geralt body HUDs. Whether a lot of people complained about the native BoM option, or whether it was too much hassle to update two different bodies, or whether the native BoM bodies were genuinely only ever intended for testing purposes is anyone's guess. The changelog simply indicates "a built-in BoM feature you will now be able to use Bakes on Mesh system layers combined with all current Omega and Signature appliers". But it was available for a while.

Edited by Skell Dagger
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2 hours ago, Kyrie Deka said:

... produce clothing/body items etc. one sells that then show a lower number in Complexity superficially (without really reducing the actual "complexity" of those items).

With all the "changes" in progress it certainly seems a good investment of time to discuss developing that formula.  Just takin up space on my monitors otherwise...

FWIW, the Lab has a project "ARCTan" aiming to improve that formula, but I gather progress has been limited by other more pressing priorities. You can read about it in Inara Pey's regular updates from the Content Creation User Group, starting back in February 2018.

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On 11/22/2020 at 9:50 PM, AdminGirl said:

I've been seeing a shift from appliers to BOM from creators, and honestly I don't get it. Ok I know it lowers your complexity and you can go crazy with thousands of layers (?), but do people really do that anyway?

I prefer appliers because it doesn't blow up my inventory, and because most appliers give you an idea of what you're about to put on. With BOM layers, it's mostly a guessing game for me, depending on how well things are named.

Some creators are even removing appliers and just replacing them with BOM *sad*

What does everyone else think/prefer? And how are you all managing your inventory with all these layers?

Honestly, BOM confuses the fk out of me. Much Like GOR... I just decline it. For now.

Btw my complexity is hardly ever over 30,000 

 

Most new people I meet and talk to are so confused and have no idea how to use mesh bodies and clothing.

Let alone finding a skin, you have to find a head then a body... then figure out how to make them match.. lol

I long for the days of simplicity

 

 

 

Edited by Tarina Sewell
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45 minutes ago, Tarina Sewell said:

Honestly, BOM confuses the fk out of me. Much Like GOR... I just decline it. For now.

   Well. It's not quite the same as Gor ...

46 minutes ago, Tarina Sewell said:

I long for the days of simplicity

   With BOM, outfitting your avatar works pretty much exactly the same as it did before mesh bodies came around. So. This very much is back to the days of simplicity!

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I seriously need a short school bus explanation of BoM!  I am just coming back to SL after being gone for 2-3 yrs and we have this thing now, BoM?? I don't know how to update my Avi and this is me before & after adding the Maitreya V5.  Also, I am using the FireStorm Viewer. Does that make a difference in using BoM? I would love to be able to layer closes so they don't clash, etc. 

Please can someone give me an idea of what I may be doing wrong? Is there a how to video on setting up your avi using the new Maitreya with the BoM?

wweeyy.jpg

OyVey!.PNG

jlkjljlj.PNG

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1 hour ago, Orwar said:

   Well. It's not quite the same as Gor ...

   With BOM, outfitting your avatar works pretty much exactly the same as it did before mesh bodies came around. So. This very much is back to the days of simplicity!

The comparison was that  I was confused about them both, not that they were a like.

The fact that you believe it to be back to days of simplicity is your opinion.  I am not going to tell you how wrong you are because you do not believe like I do though.

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1 hour ago, MsAfrodite said:

I seriously need a short school bus explanation of BoM!  I am just coming back to SL after being gone for 2-3 yrs and we have this thing now, BoM?? I don't know how to update my Avi and this is me before & after adding the Maitreya V5.  Also, I am using the FireStorm Viewer. Does that make a difference in using BoM? I would love to be able to layer closes so they don't clash, etc. 

Please can someone give me an idea of what I may be doing wrong? Is there a how to video on setting up your avi using the new Maitreya with the BoM?

wweeyy.jpg

OyVey!.PNG

jlkjljlj.PNG

I see two problems here immediately.

1) First, and most important, take off the Maitreya Mesh Body - Alpha. You don't need a full-body alpha when using BOM, and it will in fact mess up the look, because what it ends up hiding is not your system body, but the mesh one.

2) You've got the Maitreya Mesh Body - BoM Add-on Parts HUD on, but you haven't worn the actual BoM Add-on Parts attachment itself. You don't strictly speaking need this -- it's for smoothing out cleavage and nipples, and crotch and bum (also toes) when wearing system layers over these. But add it. Use the Add-On HUD to smooth those parts only if you need to (eg. you're wearing an applier or system tee shirt, or jeans); if you have the Add-On parts enabled through the Add-On Parts HUD when you're wearing mesh over these, it will sometimes stick out through the mesh.

Make sure you've enable BoM on both the Maitreya body and whatever head you're using -- there should be a button to do so on the HUDs for each of these. You have to have BoM enabled on both, or it won't work properly.

Then wear your choice of system skin, just as you used to in pre-mesh days. If that skin includes the face, you should be done; if it does not (and most do not), your head will still probably appear the colour red. You'll need to add a system tattoo layer with your chosen / preferred face skin. You can't use applier skins for either body or head anymore -- you need the system skin and possibly face skin tattoo layer.

Maitreya still has alpha cuts on its HUD, so you can use those to blank out whatever parts of the body are cutting through clothes, but you can now also use alpha layers to do this. Maitreya also has the option of adding tattoo, underwear, and clothing layers to your body; you can see those in your inventory above. If you add them, you can control them through the main Maitreya HUD. I recommend not wearing them if you don't need them (and mostly now you shouldn't): I wear the tattoo layer because it allows me to wear an asymmetrical tattoo on one arm but not the other, but I've never needed to wear the underwear or clothing layers, and you probably won't either.

Here's a quick start guide for Maitreya BoM that might help. There is likely one out there for whatever head you're using too.
 

 

ETA: The viewer you're using shouldn't make a difference: all of the major viewers, including Firestorm, updated for BoM a long time ago.

Edited by Scylla Rhiadra
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42 minutes ago, Tarina Sewell said:

The fact that you believe it to be back to days of simplicity is your opinion.  I am not going to tell you how wrong you are because you do not believe like I do though.

How is BOM not "going back to the days of simplicity?" Can you elaborate?

BOM, as in avatar bakes, are literally the oldest system in SL. It existed long before mesh or even sculpts. The only difference is that it has now been extended to work with attachments as well.

Edited by Wulfie Reanimator
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2 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

How is BOM not going "back to the days of simplicity?" Can you elaborate?

BOM, as in avatar bakes, are literally the oldest system in SL. It existed long before mesh or even sculpts. The only difference is that it has now been extended to work with attachments as well.

The problem is not BoM itself -- it's of course actually super simple to use once you're familiar with it, and vastly superior in nearly every way to appliers*

It's the switch over from appliers to BoM that is causing people headaches. What is really a very simple, intuitive system (with the exception that head skins are now on "tattoo layers," which seems stranger than it is) just appears to be complicated because people aren't used to it.

 

 

* The one area where BoM is regretfully not as powerful as appliers is in the fact that you can no longer "blend" things like tattoos and makeup, reducing their opacity so as to make them fainter. I used that feature a lot on makeup to make lipstick, for instance, a bit less vivid. I wish there were a way to increase the transparency of system layers.

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13 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

How is BOM not "going back to the days of simplicity?" Can you elaborate?

 

old - non mesh avatar, wear clothing go to club.

now -wear mesh avatar make sure you wearing the right layer, wait you have to apply it first to this then to that..

ops you forgot to wear the special alpha.

yep just like the old days. my bad

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4 minutes ago, Tarina Sewell said:

now -wear mesh avatar make sure you wearing the right layer, wait you have to apply it first to this then to that..

ops you forgot to wear the special alpha.

yep just like the old days. my bad

That's not BoM.

And what "special alpha"? You mean one supplied with old standard-sized mesh clothing?

Strictly speaking (see Slink Redux bodies), you don't have multiple layers on BoM bodies -- just the one. And you don't, indeed can't, use appliers. You add skin, makeup, tattoos, and clothing layers in exactly the same way we used to with system bodies.

The only real difference is that you're now wearing a mesh body over the system one. In every other respect, it's the same as the old days.

Edited by Scylla Rhiadra
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7 minutes ago, Tarina Sewell said:

old - non mesh avatar, wear clothing go to club.

now -wear mesh avatar make sure you wearing the right layer, wait you have to apply it first to this then to that..

ops you forgot to wear the special alpha.

yep just like the old days. my bad

Why the attitude? Is everything okay at home?

19 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

The problem is not BoM itself -- it's of course actually super simple to use once you're familiar with it, and vastly superior in nearly every way to appliers*

It's the switch over from appliers to BoM that is causing people headaches. What is really a very simple, intuitive system (with the exception that head skins are now on "tattoo layers," which seems stranger than it is) just appears to be complicated because people aren't used to it.

Oh, I know. The more I hear people talk about BOM (and calling it confusing) the more apparent it becomes that LL hasn't done a good enough job at explaining what BOM is and how it works.

Granted, LL can't do that without giving a practical example. (I don't know if they did.) No matter how well they explain it, people still have to log in to figure out how to wear something with BOM enabled. And for most people, that didn't happen until creators added a literal "BOM button" to their HUDs. (As unnecessary as it may have been.)

Do people really buy "head skins" separately from body skins, though? Seems super weird for the human market.

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20 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

Do people really buy "head skins" separately from body skins, though? Seems super weird for the human market.

The store I get my skin at sells them separately.  The body skin looks like the old system skin then I buy the face/head skin I like which comes in all the same tones as the body skin.  What I love is that I can try on a new skin without having to do anything.  Put on another tattoo layer then take it off.  I hated having to dig out either the head HUD or skin applier to change back.  That's if I remembered to put the skin in the HUD or the name of it.

Edited by RowanMinx
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49 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I see two problems here immediately.

1) First, and most important, take off the Maitreya Mesh Body - Alpha. You don't need a full-body alpha when using BOM, and it will in fact mess up the look, because what it ends up hiding is not your system body, but the mesh one.

2) You've got the Maitreya Mesh Body - BoM Add-on Parts HUD on, but you haven't worn the actual BoM Add-on Parts attachment itself. You don't strictly speaking need this -- it's for smoothing out cleavage and nipples, and crotch and bum (also toes) when wearing system layers over these. But add it. Use the Add-On HUD to smooth those parts only if you need to (eg. you're wearing an applier or system tee shirt, or jeans); if you have the Add-On parts enabled through the Add-On Parts HUD when you're wearing mesh over these, it will sometimes stick out through the mesh.

Make sure you've enable BoM on both the Maitreya body and whatever head you're using -- there should be a button to do so on the HUDs for each of these. You have to have BoM enabled on both, or it won't work properly.

Then wear your choice of system skin, just as you used to in pre-mesh days. If that skin includes the face, you should be done; if it does not (and most do not), your head will still probably appear the colour red. You'll need to add a system tattoo layer with your chosen / preferred face skin. You can't use applier skins for either body or head anymore -- you need the system skin and possibly face skin tattoo layer.

Maitreya still has alpha cuts on its HUD, so you can use those to blank out whatever parts of the body are cutting through clothes, but you can now also use alpha layers to do this. Maitreya also has the option of adding tattoo, underwear, and clothing layers to your body; you can see those in your inventory above. If you add them, you can control them through the main Maitreya HUD. I recommend not wearing them if you don't need them (and mostly now you shouldn't): I wear the tattoo layer because it allows me to wear an asymmetrical tattoo on one arm but not the other, but I've never needed to wear the underwear or clothing layers, and you probably won't either.

Here's a quick start guide for Maitreya BoM that might help. There is likely one out there for whatever head you're using too.
 

 

ETA: The viewer you're using shouldn't make a difference: all of the major viewers, including Firestorm, updated for BoM a long time ago.

Thank you for explaining things for me!  Just a few more questions for clarity.

1. When you say "system skin(s)" do you mean the squiggly looking icons like in the pic below?

2. Will using BoM help with clothes clashing? You know, you put a shirt over some pants and the pants will bleed through the shirt layer, etc. 

 

 

LKJLJLJ;.PNG

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I'm pushing the idea that new users should start with a mesh avatar that supports both BOM and bento. They should get a starter wardrobe, maybe a dozen mesh pieces, plus some legacy texture clothing. New Resident Island has new walkthrough tutorials that take this approach, one for women and one for men. You get the open-source Ruth and Roth avatars and some clothing as you complete the tutorial.

Most of the new user tutorials assume you have a classic body, and maybe at the end they mention mesh. It's time to turn that around. Teach new users that the modern avatar is mesh, bento, and BOM.

It's backwards compatibility that's complicated. Pure BOM is straightforward. You just use "Wear" or "Add" and look at the list of what you're wearing.

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51 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

It's the switch over from appliers to BoM that is causing people headaches. What is really a very simple, intuitive system (with the exception that head skins are now on "tattoo layers," which seems stranger than it is) just appears to be complicated because people aren't used to it.

 

They don't need to do that though.  We can wear one full BOM skin with the face attached to the body.  I don't get why they do that but I'm not sure if that is confusing people or not.  It's difficult at first.  I experienced it myself.  Now, I much prefer BOM plus I am making my own skins now and tattoos.

We can also now just add a tattoo directly onto a skin in Photoshop, no need for extra tattoos either.  I do that with my moles and tattoos for my skins, just layer them onto the skin directly in Photoshop, it's just easier that way, just change a skin when you want to change a tattoo.    

It's really not complicated.  I can't think of why the reluctance.  At first I thought it could be money and time but I still don't know why so many are dragging their feet.  

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4 minutes ago, RowanMinx said:

The store I get my skin at sells them separately.  The body skin looks like the old system skin then I buy the face/head skin I like which comes in all the same tones as the body skin.

But is there a practical reason to separate them? Like, I completely understand it when it comes to furry/anime heads (especially when you throw in different bodies) since they don't share UVs.

But what I'm imagining right now is "Tone A: body", "Tone A: head", "Tone B: body", "Tone B: head", or is there something more to it?

2 minutes ago, Tarina Sewell said:

sigh

Me too, buddy.

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4 minutes ago, MsAfrodite said:

Thank you for explaining things for me!  Just a few more questions for clarity.

1. When you say "system skin(s)" do you mean the squiggly looking icons like in the pic below?

2. Will using BoM help with clothes clashing? You know, you put a shirt over some pants and the pants will bleed through the shirt layer, etc. 

 

 

LKJLJLJ;.PNG

Those're tattoos.

Skin icon looks like a person, arms/legs in an X formation.

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2 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

But is there a practical reason to separate them? Like, I completely understand it when it comes to furry/anime heads (especially when you throw in different bodies) since they don't share UVs.

But what I'm imagining right now is "Tone A: body", "Tone A: head", "Tone B: body", "Tone B: head", or is there something more to it?

Me too, buddy.

No idea why except to make more money?  I don't recall what they each cost.  Each tone of the body skin does come with several skin options plus several additional tattoo layers for body modification.  Love handles, XL cleavage.

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Just now, MsAfrodite said:

Ahhhh ok, I think I'm getting it...I think! LOL  Thank you☺️

You can use the skins that look like a body.  Those are BOM skins too - just like in the old days.  I don't make tattoo BOM skins like a tattoo...I make full BOM skins with head and body attached in one piece just like in the old days...and the symbol looks like a person in yellow.  If you have old system skins, you can try those on and see how you like them.  

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