Why BOM? Why?

[Rowan Amore]

2 hours ago, Tarina Sewell said:

es, but Blush cleared up something for me about using the add on hud and now I am nippleless er... well im not super cold all the time.

I switched bodies before the big update and haven't gotten around to getting it.  I might have to go grab one and see what's all new!

[Wulfie Reanimator]

41 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

A downside with BOM skins I just found out yesterday is that you have to use certain lighting in the ENVIRONMENT EDITOR or you will get a neck seam.  I was reading the nc and it said may need CalWL or some such lighting  (can't remember other name at this time) to avoid a neck seam.  It also said Annon Adored Optimal Lighting may not always be enough to avoid a neck seam.  I find CalWL to be too bright for my eyes.  Any possible known fix for this in the works?  LL or it's new buyers are really going to need to let others know they will have to change their lighting to view some BOM skins without a neck seam because a lot of people don't even read notecards so maybe skin designers should put as part of the skin name read notecard so people will read the notecard, such as "Britnany Skin - READ NOTECARD".  I hope EEP gives us some better lightings for BOM skins than CalWL which is too bright for me.  

BOM has no effect on neck seams. Neck seams are caused by two things:

1. Mismatching textures. Obviously, if they're a different color at the seam, you'll be able to see the seam.
2. Lighting, or more specifically "vertex normals."

Essentially, shadows are created based on the surface of a mesh. The further away a surface is facing from a light source, the darker it is. This works well with a single surface, since all the "points" of that surface are connected to each other. But the "neck seam" is actually where two separate objects connect. Their points may be at exactly the same location, but their "directions" don't align because they aren't connected or properly aligned.

• The result is that the top-of-the-neck gets different shadows from the bottom half and you see the seam.
• This would happen regardless of whether you're using BOM or non-BOM textures.
• A creator making a claim that BOM causes seams simply doesn't understand what they're talking about.

Changing your lighting to CalWL or similar will make the problem go away because they get rid of shadows altogether. It's similar to setting your head and body to fullbright. It's the same kind of "hiding the problem under the rug" as increasing your LOD factor to 4 instead of seeing mesh degrade into triangles.

[Rowan Amore]

15 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

BOM has no effect on neck seams. Neck seams are caused by two things:

1. Mismatching textures. Obviously, if they're a different color at the seam, you'll be able to see the seam.
2. Lighting, or more specifically "vertex normals."

Essentially, shadows are created based on the surface of a mesh. The further away a surface is facing from a light source, the darker it is. This works well with a single surface, since all the "points" of that surface are connected to each other. But the "neck seam" is actually where two separate objects connect. Their points may be at exactly the same location, but their "directions" don't align because they aren't connected or properly aligned.

• The result is that the top-of-the-neck gets different shadows from the bottom half and you see the seam.
• This would happen regardless of whether you're using BOM or non-BOM textures.
• A creator making a claim that BOM causes seams simply doesn't understand what they're talking about.

Changing your lighting to CalWL or similar will make the problem go away because they get rid of shadows altogether. It's similar to setting your head and body to fullbright. It's the same kind of "hiding the problem under the rug" as increasing your LOD factor to 4 instead of seeing mesh degrade into triangles.

Exactly.  If the skin is made well, the seam should be invisible in most any wind light you choose.  

[Wulfie Reanimator]

18 minutes ago, RowanMinx said:

Exactly.  If the skin is made well, the seam should be invisible in most any wind light you choose.  

Well, no, there's no amount of texture-perfection that can fix mismatching normals between the two objects.

Try it with a blank white texture. This should be perfect but you'll still see a seam.

This could be fixed if the creators of the two different objects collaborated and shared the connecting areas of their models, so one could manually match the other.

Edited December 3, 2020 by Wulfie Reanimator

[FairreLilette]

1 hour ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

BOM has no effect on neck seams. Neck seams are caused by two things:

1. Mismatching textures. Obviously, if they're a different color at the seam, you'll be able to see the seam.
2. Lighting, or more specifically "vertex normals."

Essentially, shadows are created based on the surface of a mesh. The further away a surface is facing from a light source, the darker it is. This works well with a single surface, since all the "points" of that surface are connected to each other. But the "neck seam" is actually where two separate objects connect. Their points may be at exactly the same location, but their "directions" don't align because they aren't connected or properly aligned.

• The result is that the top-of-the-neck gets different shadows from the bottom half and you see the seam.
• This would happen regardless of whether you're using BOM or non-BOM textures.
• A creator making a claim that BOM causes seams simply doesn't understand what they're talking about.

Changing your lighting to CalWL or similar will make the problem go away because they get rid of shadows altogether. It's similar to setting your head and body to fullbright. It's the same kind of "hiding the problem under the rug" as increasing your LOD factor to 4 instead of seeing mesh degrade into triangles.

That's not what I said.  I never said BOM was causing a neck seam?  I said with BOM we need different lighting or we could get a neck seam.   

I'm tired.  Please re-read what I said.

I also said CalWL is too bright for me and that I also read Annon Adored Optimal Skin No Shadow may not be enough to make the neck seam go away.  I said it was the lighting causing neck seams.

[Rowan Amore]

1 hour ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

Well, no, there's no amount of texture-perfection that can fix mismatching normals between the two objects.

Try it with a blank white texture. This should be perfect but you'll still see a seam.

This could be fixed if the creators of the two different objects collaborated and shared the connecting areas of their models, so one could manually match the other.

All I know is, there is no easily visible neck seam on my skin regardless of most lighting I'm using.  whatever the reason, I'm happy with it.

[FairreLilette]

I'm mentioning the need or possible need for a lighting change regarding neck seams because of all the recent "I have neck seams" threads that started about a month or so ago.  Many said just change your body fat.  It could be they need to change their lighting.  With some of my BOM skins, I get neck seams and odd shadows if I don't turn on the correct lighting.  But, as far as CalWL as an alternative lighting source, not for me...that one is way too bright.  EEP is not out in Firestorm yet I don't think but when it comes out, I hope there are some improved lightings for BOM skins that are just prettier, no so bright and blinding.  

[Gabriele Graves]

I don't have neck seams (BoM or not) with the skins I use and the mesh body/head combination I have and haven't since I can recall.

This is using both the released versions of Firestorm and more recently the Firestorm EEP Preview viewer.

[Charlotte Bartlett]

5 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Ok, just popped in here to rant for a moment.

BoM is great. I really like it, mostly, albeit with some reservations regarding the inability to change transparency.

BUT

Some kind of standardized approach to designating system layers is in order. I'm currently wearing a pair of BoM socks (sock layer) and panties (undies layer), with BoM leggings. The problem is, that the leggings are set to the tattoo layer, which means that they sit UNDER the socks and panties. And, while you can shuffle layers around within layer categories, you can't change a category itself. So, my socks (and theoretically panties, but I've just removed those) have to go OVER my leggings.

It seems to me that, at this point, getting rid of the layer categories entirely would be a good thing, and having all system layers as, in effect, tattoo layers. As we can shuffle order around within single categories, it's silly and unnecessary to designate things as tattoo / underwear / clothing.

 

Sorry, you may now carry on.

What you are saying is your panties are making a Superman style outfit?

[Wulfie Reanimator]

1 hour ago, FairreLilette said:

That's not what I said.  I never said BOM was causing a neck seam?  I said with BOM we need different lighting or we could get a neck seam.   

I'm tired.  Please re-read what I said.

I also said CalWL is too bright for me and that I also read Annon Adored Optimal Skin No Shadow may not be enough to make the neck seam go away.  I said it was the lighting causing neck seams.

I did read what you said, and I have re-read it again.

 

3 hours ago, FairreLilette said:

A downside with BOM skins I just found out yesterday is that you have to use certain lighting in the ENVIRONMENT EDITOR or you will get a neck seam.  I was reading the nc and it said may need CalWL or some such lighting  (can't remember other name at this time) to avoid a neck seam.

"A downside with BOM skins is that you have to change your lighting or you will get a neck seam."

As opposed to... not using BOM skins? This statement clearly implies is that "neck seams are a downside of BOM skins." Is this not how the sentence structure in the English language works? (I'm not a native speaker, do correct me if I'm wrong...) If BOM was not the cause, why would specify BOM? Why not say "downside with skins?" But at that point anyone should tell you "yeah, we've always had neck seams" and pointing it out now is kinda redundant.

3 hours ago, FairreLilette said:

It also said Annon Adored Optimal Lighting may not always be enough to avoid a neck seam.  I find CalWL to be too bright for my eyes.  Any possible known fix for this in the works? LL or it's new buyers are really going to need to let others know they will have to change their lighting to view some BOM skins without a neck seam

The fix doesn't depend on LL or the way lighting is rendered in Second Life.

3 hours ago, FairreLilette said:

because a lot of people don't even read notecards so maybe skin designers should put as part of the skin name read notecard so people will read the notecard, such as "Britnany Skin - READ NOTECARD".  I hope EEP gives us some better lightings for BOM skins than CalWL which is too bright for me.  

I haven't used EEP yet, but with classic Windlights, you can get rid of shadows (seams) by setting the "Sun/Moon Color" to black, and reducing the Ambient color to a darker grey to control the overall brightness of the world.

Edited December 3, 2020 by Wulfie Reanimator

[Scylla Rhiadra]

5 minutes ago, Charlotte Bartlett said:

What you are saying is your panties are making a Superman style outfit?

What I am saying is that BoM is part of a HUGE conspiracy in SL to get me out of my panties.

😮

[FairreLilette]

48 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

I did read what you said, and I have re-read it again.

 

"A downside with BOM skins is that you have to change your lighting or you will get a neck seam."

As opposed to... not using BOM skins? This statement clearly implies is that "neck seams are a downside of BOM skins." Is this not how the sentence structure in the English language works? (I'm not a native speaker, do correct me if I'm wrong...) If BOM was not the cause, why would specify BOM? Why not say "downside with skins?" But at that point anyone should tell you "yeah, we've always had neck seams" and pointing it out now is kinda redundant.

The fix doesn't depend on LL or the way lighting is rendered in Second Life.

I haven't used EEP yet, but with classic Windlights, you can get rid of shadows (seams) by setting the "Sun/Moon Color" to black, and reducing the Ambient color to a darker grey to control the overall brightness of the world.

No, you said "bake on mesh has no effect on neck seams", end quote.  I never said it did.  I said the lighting, the lighting...the lighting. 

nm

[Wulfie Reanimator]

1 minute ago, FairreLilette said:

No, you said "bake on mesh has no effect on neck seams", end quote.  I never said it did.  I said the lighting, the lighting...the lighting. 

nm

Ok, then we don't disagree. Great!

[Orwar]

10 hours ago, FairreLilette said:

I'm mentioning the need or possible need for a lighting change regarding neck seams because of all the recent "I have neck seams" threads that started about a month or so ago.

   Months ago? No, those threads have been coming up sporadically ever since mesh bodies and heads came along. 

   The seams aren't going anywhere with how lighting in SL works, nor do I expect the lighting to change any time soon. The 3 'fixes' available to us at present are:

• Cover your neck - wear a choker, a collar, a scarf, a turtleneck, or something such.
• Use a neck sheath - most bodies have them, but they often end up looking worse than the seam.
• Use a mesh avatar made from a single piece of mesh, with the head and body meshes connected (which, obviously, you can't do in the standard configuration of using a head and body from different creators).

   Unfortunately it's just the way it is, and since you don't have any control over what WL or graphic settings people around you use, you can never make sure that your avatar looks perfect for other people (which is likewise true with other mesh body parts ...). Luckily, it's very easy to fix it for pictures, at least.

   It also tends to be more noticeable on pale avatars, as the lighting and shadows will have more contrast on bright skins. Avatars with darker skins still have the seams, but they may not be as acutely pronounced.

[Blush Bravin]

Recently some of the head makers and body makers began making changes specifically in response to fixing the normals problem at the neck. That's why you now have two options for the neck with the Maitreya body. The new Lelutka heads will match up perfectly to the Maitreya neck now. 

12 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

A downside with BOM skins I just found out yesterday is that you have to use certain lighting in the ENVIRONMENT EDITOR or you will get a neck seam.

I'm really quoting FairreLilette .. it was just easier to grab it from Wulfie's post. This is not a downside to BOM as the lighting problem exists regardless of using BoM or an applier skin. I totally agree that having to change windlight to make the neck appear seamless is problematic. I personally use default lighting at least 70% of the time. I don't like any of those bright white light windlights unless I'm working on my wardrobe pics. Fortunately, now with my Evo head and the correct neck selection on my Mait body my neck is truly seamless in all windlights.

[FairreLilette]

First I want to say I have not had problems with neck seams when I was using Deetalez skins.  I didn't have to wear a choker for years.  I have been BOM with my own skins for over a month now but since buying new heads from several makers during the Black Friday sales, I need other head skins now.  Too many to just whip out and make.

So I'll start with what happened here:  First, I got a bunch of new heads with the Black Friday sales so have been BOM skin shopping around.  

I read a notecard from one skin maker with the BOM skin and it said with BOM you may get neck seams so you need to change your windlight to CalWL plus the notecard mentioned a few others.

When I put that BOM mesh skin on the day before yesterday I DID HAVE NECK SEAMS and needed to change the lighting as the notecard said.

So, I'm wondering what is going on there....?

Last night Horus posted a photo in "What Does Your Avatar Look Like Today" and he wrote "Horus goes BOM" and there is a neck seam.  I said to Horus in that thread last night..."is that a neck seam or a necklace"?  He answered back it was a neck seam.  I said you may need to change your lighting.  It's all in the 'what does your avatar look like today' today thread.  

I'm wondering what lighting he used here?  But, yes, some BOM skins are causing neck seams.  Again, my own BOM skins did not cause neck seams.  So, not sure at all what is happening here or with Horus having a neck seam.  I look at thousands of photos, no neck seams.  Then, when Horus goes BOM, a neck seam I see.

 

Edited December 3, 2020 by FairreLilette

[Blush Bravin]

22 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

But, yes, some BOM skins are causing neck seams.

I'm fairly certain any BoM skin that is causing a neck seam would also cause the exact same neck seam issue if the same textures were used to make an applier skin. BoM does not inherently create neck issues. It's just a baking service that flattens multiple textures into one texture. 

[FairreLilette]

3 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

I'm fairly certain any BoM skin that is causing a neck seam would also cause the exact same neck seam issue if the same textures were used to make an applier skin. BoM does not inherently create neck issues. It's just a baking service that flattens multiple textures into one texture. 

Okay, I got a notecard saying that it did which it did on the skins I tried and then Horus posts a picture that he just went BOM and he has a neck seam and it looks like he is using pretty decent lighting.

Now, the skins I have with the neck seams and the nc to change the lighting are full BOM, meaning they are one piece with the head and body together, and the skin maker also including pictures on how the skin neck will look in different lighting.  And then Horus shows a picture that he just went BOM and he has a neck seam.  I'm wondering if his BOM is tattoos or the full BOM kind that looks like a yellow person icon?  And/or if there is any difference between the tattoo BOM as opposed to the full BOM little yellow person icon which is not a tattoo.    

I'm not sure what is going on but I have been Deetalez for years with no neck seams.  So I am not used to this neck seam problem.  But, I need to know because I don't want to have to change my lighting just to get rid of a neck seam.  But, again, the picture of Horus looks like he used quite a decent lighting but he has a neck seam.

[Blush Bravin]

2 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

Okay, I got a notecard saying that it did which it did on the skins I tried and then Horus posts a picture that he just went BOM and he has a neck seam and it looks like he is using pretty decent lighting.

I've bought mesh objects that included a notecard saying to set LOD to at least 4 but that 8 is better. When I read those kinds of notecards it just tells me the creator did a poor job of creating the mesh. Honestly, I've never bought a skin, and I have oodles of skins, that included a notecard saying I had to set the windlight to a certain setting in order for the skin to look good. If I bought a skin that included such a notecard I'd never buy another from that creator. Of course I don't ever buy a skin without doing a demo first so I'd know not to buy the skin in the first place.

One of the requirements for purchasing any skin for me is that the skin looks good in default lighting. I have lots and lots of skins that have been released since BoM came out. I don't have any issues with them. Now the huge difference is getting a skin that was made years ago and using it simply because you can now with BoM technology. Those skins are rarely going to be satisfactory. It's one of those cases of just because you can doesn't mean you should. I have to wonder if Horus is using one of those old skins.

[FairreLilette]

14 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

I have to wonder if Horus is using one of those old skins.

Yeah, this ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ me too...but even further is it the old skin icon that could be the problem because I've read BOM is about tattoos and somehow putting all those tattoos into one texture.  So, does this include the little yellow person icon skin as a tattoo?  

Something is weird here.  The skins where I have the neck seam are the little yellow person icon.  However, I have been using full BOM skins for a while now.

I have taken lots and lots of photos with them with no neck seams; fine in Midday as well.  So, this neck seam issue just happened two days ago - and it was the skin with the notecard saying to change the lighting.

This change for BOM is a bit confusing with tattoos for skin plus little yellow person icon too, plus appliers, then the eyes don't work and I can't fit old Lelutka lipsticks on my Aida head at BOM like I can on my Catwa with a BOM skin on, nor figure out eyelashes.  I am having lots of problems with Lelutka origins that I need to contact the creator because I want her to be BOM without all these problems and there are a lot, unfortunately.  I'm on problem over-load right now with Lelutka origins going BOM.  

[Coby Foden]

Lelutka has already solution for the neck seam problem. They have implemented it in their Evolution line heads. The fix is available for body and head creators for free. They just need to adjust their creations with the fix. Technically the fix means that the head and body have the normals pointing in the same direction at the seam. The result is that there is no seam to be seen anymore provided that the skin in the body and head is the same type. Fixing the normals is the only perfect solution - there is no other.

Maitreya has implemented the normals fix in their body, maybe some others have too. By using Lelutka Evolution head and the latest Maitreya body with same skins there is no seam to be seen in any lighting conditions.

The proof: Maitreya body, Lelutka Ryn head,  Suri skin from Nuve (BOM).
Looking all around the neck - no seam is visible (RAW image).

Edited December 3, 2020 by Coby Foden

[Blush Bravin]

3 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

Yeah, this ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ me too...but even further is it the old skin icon that could be the problem because I've read BOM is about tattoos and somehow putting all those tattoos into one texture.  So, does this include the little yellow person icon skin as a tattoo?  

All system layers will work perfectly well using BoM. It doesn't matter if it's a proper skin (yellow person icon) or a tattoo and even the clothing layers. It doesn't make a difference except for possibly which order you place them into while making the outfit. 

[FairreLilette]

18 minutes ago, Coby Foden said:

Lelutka has already solution for the neck seam problem. They have implemented it in their Evolution line heads. The fix is available for body and head creators for free. They just need to adjust their creations with the fix. Technically the fix means that the head and body have the normals pointing in the same direction at the seam. The result is that there is no seam to be seen anymore provided that the skin in the body and head is the same type. Fixing the normals is the only perfect solution - there is no other.

Maitreya has implemented the normals fix in their body, maybe some others have too. By using Lelutka Evolution head and the latest Maitreya body with same skins there is no seam to be seen in any lighting conditions.

The proof: Maitreya body, Lelutka Ryn head,  Suri skin from Nuve (BOM).
Looking all around the neck - no seam is visible (RAW image).

Why not update their origins though?  And, what do they mean by "update" those other brands listed - do they mean the older heads as well or what?

This is why I need to contact the creator.  Plus even the eyes on Aida origins won't change when I have her set on BOM.

Edited December 3, 2020 by FairreLilette

[Wulfie Reanimator]

21 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

but even further is it the old skin icon that could be the problem because I've read BOM is about tattoos and somehow putting all those tattoos into one texture.

BOM does "put all those textures into one texture, but for each section of the body separately. BOM still has a separate texture for the upper and lower body, but BOM allows you to wear something around 60 layers of "upper body textures" as a single upper body texture.

BOM is not only about tattoos. It works with all wearable types, including the new "Universal" type that didn't exist before.

[FairreLilette]

3 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

It works with all wearable types, including the new "Universal" type that didn't exist before.

What is the new universal type?  I've not heard of that before.