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On 11/25/2020 at 3:32 AM, Tarina Sewell said:

5a685083dafea366a9c5bfdd282b0a28.png

I think the issue with this picture is just information overload.

The human brain likes clear visual hierarchy to be able to read things quickly at a glance. Each text in this picture is too wide to skim read.

The creator should have 3 folders, "Alpha's", "Voice Gestures" and "Facial Features" and instead of naming inventory items like  "LeLUTKA.Base.Brows.Nova.001.DEMO', use simple names that can be skim read like "Brows 001", that way it would be much quicker and easier to find what you are looking for

 

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On 11/22/2020 at 7:41 PM, AdminGirl said:

Exactly what I was thinking before I made this thread. I tried to look up if we could script BOMs somehow because inventory's getting a little bit crazy.

I explain BOM below... BOM is not something we "do". So there is nothing BOM to program. That will make more since after reading the explanation below.  BOM is pure server side. Misunderstanding BOM leads people into a wall and they miss the point that there was a better, more of less, and simpler way.

We now can use System Layers; skin layer, tat layer, etc. on our mesh bodies. That is the change BOM brought. This does tend to increase inventory. A blush makeup may come in 5 or more shades of transparency instead of a single applier with with one 0% transparency blush and a transparency slider. I see lots of benefit to having applier makeup. I have stayed with Applier makeup.

Having 5 blushes versus 1 applier is a PITA. But, inventory is basically unlimited and huge inventories are not a significant performance problem. Downloading and rendering the mesh layers and textures used in the onion skin body parts is a massive performance hit. Enough so that the Lab spent time and effort expanding SSB (see below) to BOM.

While Outfits are the simple solution to what is worn we do have scripted stuff that will add items to our avatar. There is also the RLV system and the Experiences system. Both can add and remove things to and from our avatar.

Outfits were the solution to getting dressed and avoiding having to dig through all those inventory items each time we want to wear an outfit. 

On 11/22/2020 at 8:02 PM, AdminGirl said:

That's true, scripted objects do create lag, but doesn't a large inventory create problems or lag for the individual? Not for everyone else, but for all your stuff to load, it takes more resources no?

Large inventory is not usually a problem. The inventory you see in the viewer is a list. It is text based, simple, and compact. It basically consists of the name you see and a UUID. This is just a pointer into the asset database/bank that holds the actual 'data' that makes up the thing.

In SL inventory is unlimited with the exception of how many items can be in a single folder. That limit is imposed by download time. Seems the viewer's inventory downloader can time out if it takes too long to download a folder. On weak connections folders with 5,000 or so items can time out. If that happens you can't log into SL and have to have support rearrange your inventory.

Your inventory of say <100k items is unlikely to create a lag you can measure. And that lag is only at login time. Plus, it only affects you, as you wrote. My inventory of a billion items does not affect you.

The resource needed for large inventory is computer memory. If you are short on memory, reducing your inventory item count could possibly help. But the item entries in inventory are small. I have about 60-70k items in inventory on my main avatar. I have an Alt with basically the default inventory of 5k. Login on both takes the same time... or at least I can't tell a difference.

Memory use... I don't have a good way to measure. I have to guess. I suspect an inventory items uses 128B or 256B. It can't be very big. It needs a name (63 char max), UUID about 32, and something for folder structure... 128B would work.

However, scripts affect everyone by affecting the region servers. Thus some regions have script weight billboards and events often kick people with too many scripts.

On 11/23/2020 at 1:05 AM, Syo Emerald said:

BOM is the one step that makes everything so much more complicated. Another fking system to balance on top of it all. I did well with appliers and mesh in general, but this thing... I hate it. But its now shoved down our throats, if you want anything new these days. And I feel like creators use it to squeeze more money out of people.

BOM (Bakes On Mesh) is literally a step at removing a system, appliers, and simplifying SL. BOM is the second generation SSB (Server Side Baking) that was added pre-mesh. SSB changed the backend operation of SL and required no change of behavior or additional learning on the users' part. Applier did. You likely learned the Applier style and now things seem complicated as you try to go to the original way of doing things.

In the pre-mesh time there were no appliers. People used the system layers. That is all we had. BOM takes us back to that. So, old-timers find BOM easy and intuitive. Those coming to SL in the Applier Era are confused by BOM. I think because they think it is something to be done when it is all server-side and a reversion back to the original System Layering. The questions isn't how does one use BOM... it is how does one use System Layers?

SSB took all the layers being worn and baked them into a single temporary texture. So skin, tats, underwear, clothes, and jacket layers were baked (composited) into a single image, one image for head, one for Upper, and one for Lower. Prior to SSB those three sets of five layers required our viewers to download composite all those layers/images. Plus everyone that saw us had to repeat the operation in their viewer. SSB removed a huge load from the viewers and the asset delivery system.

With the development of mesh we ran into a problem. The avatar is the only object in SL that can render layers. Adding a mesh body eliminated the ability to wear any thing other than a skin. Tats, underwear, etc. would have to be baked into a skin in Photoshop or GIMP. That simply was not a reasonable solution.

The SL users' fix was multiple copies of the body stacked into layers. Think Russian dolls. The onion skin body. This increased the polygon count by five-or-more-times. As the 'layer' textures could no longer be baked into a single texture (diffuse layer), we were back to placing a huge load on viewer to render and the asset delivery system.

BOM reverted us back to the more efficient SSB compositing and reduction in system load plus it added the ability to place the composited diffuse image textures on mesh items. Thus removing the need for onion skin bodies and appliers, which are a work-around invented by users.

Qui is right in that a limit of BOM is that it does NOT handle materials. We still need an applier if we want to have water drops on skin to be shinny and 3D.

On 11/23/2020 at 1:53 AM, Qie Niangao said:

I don't so much love BoM as I hate appliers, mostly because (as others have noted) appliers are not contained in the Outfits they were used to create, so there are looks in my inventory now lost to time: probably I still have all the component appliers, but there's no chance I'd ever remember what they were and where they were applied.

...

My Inventory was huge and disorganized long before BoM but from what I've read, that apparently has no effect on performance or, really, anything else. ...

I ran into that problem. I have only seen two solutions. One is to include the Applier-HUD as part of the outfit, which is what I typically do. Then use the applier when I put on the outfit then detach the applier.

The other is to make a copy of my body or head with the Applier applied and save that copy as part of the outfit. This has the drawback of not being body-update friendly. I only use this solution when I run into a complex 'apply' that takes too much time.

...you ...you have a disorganized inventory... OMG!  😲  You must be the only on in SL.... 🤣 Mine is very organized. I call the arrangement Late Random... 🙄

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14 hours ago, Nalates Urriah said:

BOM (Bakes On Mesh) is literally a step at removing a system, appliers, and simplifying SL. BOM is the second generation SSB (Server Side Baking) that was added pre-mesh. SSB changed the backend operation of SL and required no change of behavior or additional learning on the users' part. Applier did. You likely learned the Applier style and now things seem complicated as you try to go to the original way of doing things.

In the pre-mesh time there were no appliers. People used the system layers. That is all we had. BOM takes us back to that. So, old-timers find BOM easy and intuitive. Those coming to SL in the Applier Era are confused by BOM. I think because they think it is something to be done when it is all server-side and a reversion back to the original System Layering. The questions isn't how does one use BOM... it is how does one use System Layers?

I was here when we just had system layers (I joined in 2010). So I never struggled with system layers. I used them just fine until I switched to a mesh body.

But BOM is just... The whole HUD section for that stuff on mesh body parts is ten times as complicated as appliers were. With appliers you just wear the thing, click a button, done. Now I have this wild puzzle of some mesh parts can do it others can't.

I had such a nightmare getting a new skin, because with BOM it suddenly mattered what system skin I was wearing, but I also need an applier, because the head can't do BOM. But if I get a new head, then I'm not sure if it still supports my big collection of make up appliers... So I don't really feel like stuff got easier.

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@Syo Emerald I can see why one would feel that way. I feel your pain.

The Lab designed a system they thought would be easy to use. Then added the SSB to improve performance. Then they gave us the mesh we wanted and we went nuts. From the Lab's view BOM takes us back to an easier time. In my view they gave us more options, freedom. We have so many more choices it is confusing, which you and the rest of us are dealing with.

At some point one has to decide if they will use only System Layers for everything (very possible), stay with Applier tech (materials keeps appliers in the game so they will be an ongoing choice), or use some mix of the two (I chose the later). None of those three are really complicated until you try to figure out what some designer is selling and whether it will work as you want with your stuff. Testing the demos can become tedious.

Designing HUDs to handle all the various possibilities makes them more complex. However, one can turn on BOM in a head and turn everything else off. One need never use the HUD again. Everything it does can then be done with System Layers. The mesh head is then just like the Classic Avatar's head.

I like Slink so I have lots of choices, Classic or Redux being Appliers or System Layers for the body. My GE.AG head is Applier tech with and BOM enabled. I do skin via BOM, no neck seam. I do applier makeup with the head. I think it simple to just buy makeup from GE.AG and not deal with compatibility issues.

That turn it all off in the mesh head does not work for me because of materials and transparency control. I like getting the amount of blush I wear just so... I get annoyed that neither the included 20% and 40% System Layer tats are the Goldie Locks setting I want. So, I put up with Applier makeup and a higher ACI for the head.

The Lab has done its part. Now the residents have to figure out how they will handle it, designers and users. While we are in the transition it will be confusing. Its a Betamax or VHS technology choice problem. But someone will likely come up with a Blu-ray solution.

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@Nalates Urriah I dug a bit through my inventory and found the main problem I'm having with BOM. I'm Frankensteins Monster of mesh systems. My body is fine. It can do BOM. The HUD is unfortunatly complex in that aspect, but whatever. The head can't do BOM and will probably never, as LeLutka does their evolution heads now... but forgot making a cute head, that would follow the style of "Chloe" (my head). But the nightmare doesn't stop there, as the creator for my skin seems to sleep on BOM...unless you use a freaking genus head ofc... So I would need thousands of Lindens and countless hours to go full BOM, as I would need to replace both my head and skin.

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1 hour ago, Syo Emerald said:

The head can't do BOM and will probably never, as LeLutka does their evolution heads now... 

I suspect the following isn't actually helpful if as you say your skin creator "seems to sleep on BOM." Nonetheless...

I wonder if you've tried getting a redelivery of Chloe. LeLutka was very early trying to support BoM in the "Origins" (pre-"Evolution") line, but they got a little ahead of the curve and used a preliminary set of textures that weren't used in the Lab's final baking service. So if your LeLutka HUD's "Essentials" tab has a pink "BakeOnMesh" swatch (that's actually a button), it may only work properly after an update by redelivery.

Now, if that doesn't work and you really wanted to try BoM, you can actually create your own Omega applier that will paint Chloe's skin layer with the appropriate BoM head texture* so system layer (BoM) skin textures will bake right on it. That sounds a lot scarier than it is, but still you may not be up for investing that much effort in this project -- especially in light of that "big collection of make up appliers"... which might still work on the head's makeup layer... seems as if they should but I don't think I've ever tried that myself.

(The BoM-native way to layer makeup seems to be to bake multiple system tattoo layers in whatever stacking order you specify.)

(Also, I'm not sure if your skin creator is doing something special to put BoM on only the genus head. I don't know if that head has a weird UV map or something, but a BoM skin will at least paint onto any mesh... although it will look best on the mesh(es) for which it was designed.)

_______________
IMG_USE_BAKED_HEAD per the Bakes on Mesh knowledgebase article, which is the LSL constant for texture UUID "5a9f4a74-30f2-821c-b88d-70499d3e7183". There's also IMG_USE_BAKED_EYES, "52cc6bb6-2ee5-e632-d3ad-50197b1dcb8a", and IMG_USE_BAKED_HAIR, 09aac1fb-6bce-0bee-7d44-caac6dbb6c63, if you really get into making your own BoM Omega applier.

 

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8 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Also, I'm not sure if your skin creator is doing something special to put BoM on only the genus head

To drop a name: Its Pink Fuel. They made skins for a wide range of heads and when I switched skins a while back and was glad, they supported Lelutka + offered a really good selection of pale skins with lots of texture detail on them. Now the issue is, that they sold only appliers. There is no system layer skin in my box. Instead, they now sell a separat bodytexture for BOM bodies and have only two head BOM options, both designed for genus heads.

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4 minutes ago, Syo Emerald said:

... they now sell a separat bodytexture for BOM bodies and have only two head BOM options, both designed for genus heads.

Ah, yeah, so to go BoM you'd at least need to get one of those (if the demo looked reasonable on LeLutka) or more likely a whole different skin.

Meanwhile, in case it's still of any interest, just confirmed by support rep on LeLutka group chat: "Chloe is updated for BOM as are all Origins Line Heads."

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3 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Ah, yeah, so to go BoM you'd at least need to get one of those (if the demo looked reasonable on LeLutka) or more likely a whole different skin.

Meanwhile, in case it's still of any interest, just confirmed by support rep on LeLutka group chat: "Chloe is updated for BOM as are all Origins Line Heads."

Thank you Qie! That at least is a huge relief to hear. Adapting to a new head is much more difficult (and expansive) than adapting to a new skin (if I find one).

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1 hour ago, Syo Emerald said:

than adapting to a new skin (if I find one).

It can be quite difficult for Lelutka Origins BoM, although depends on each head. Main reason why it's so difficult because there was a change in UV maps for them, in 3.2 update I believe, which broke a lot of older skins (lips, eye corners and nostrils mostly). I was wearing Simone at that time and had to hold up with updating until I found a new skin. Then you have new Lelutka skins for evo, which don't look well on Origins line at all. Not sure I saw a single new skin for Origins line since they released 1st evolution heads early this year. 3rd issue is that a lot of skins made for later Origins heads (Aida, Piper, Vera and Korina) also don't look good on other Origins heads. So you're looking for skins made between November 2018 and January 2020, specially for 1st half of Origins heads. And obviously limited by own preferences in skins on top of that.

So I'm actually not sure it would be an easier task than getting used to new head from the time and tech standpoint. Of course preferences in look and the fact you'd need to buy a new head otherwise are also there, but considering they are 1995L right now... maybe it would be a way easier solution.

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15 minutes ago, steeljane42 said:

It can be quite difficult for Lelutka Origins BoM, although depends on each head. Main reason why it's so difficult because there was a change in UV maps for them, in 3.2 update I believe, which broke a lot of older skins (lips, eye corners and nostrils mostly). I was wearing Simone at that time and had to hold up with updating until I found a new skin. Then you have new Lelutka skins for evo, which don't look well on Origins line at all. Not sure I saw a single new skin for Origins line since they released 1st evolution heads early this year. 3rd issue is that a lot of skins made for later Origins heads (Aida, Piper, Vera and Korina) also don't look good on other Origins heads. So you're looking for skins made between November 2018 and January 2020, specially for 1st half of Origins heads. And obviously limited by own preferences in skins on top of that.

So I'm actually not sure it would be an easier task than getting used to new head from the time and tech standpoint. Of course preferences in look and the fact you'd need to buy a new head otherwise are also there, but considering they are 1995L right now... maybe it would be a way easier solution.

Glam affair has tons of skins for older and newer lelutka heads.  Not sure if she updated any of the older for BOM but it's worth a look.

 

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I've got heaps of BoM skins that are either for or work well with Lelutka Origins.  League, Spicy (Nuve), Essences, Sessions, Amara Beauty, YS&YS and Glam Affair (as mentioned) to name a few.

Some of those places only ever did one skin but some did more and there is no guarantee on what is still available.

LAQ free skins Camille and Natasha look good on Origins if still available.

Even 7DS skins (which are for Genus) can be fixed with Izzie's nose fix which can work for some Evo (and other) skins as well so try before buying don't be put off trying demos with the nose fix even if it isn't for Lelutka at all.  Izzie's has fixes for almost anything you can think of.

So it's a case of just taking a look around and seeing what is still available.

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5 hours ago, Syo Emerald said:

@Nalates Urriah I dug a bit through my inventory and found the main problem I'm having with BOM. I'm Frankensteins Monster of mesh systems. My body is fine. It can do BOM. The HUD is unfortunatly complex in that aspect, but whatever. The head can't do BOM and will probably never, as LeLutka does their evolution heads now... but forgot making a cute head, that would follow the style of "Chloe" (my head). But the nightmare doesn't stop there, as the creator for my skin seems to sleep on BOM...unless you use a freaking genus head ofc... So I would need thousands of Lindens and countless hours to go full BOM, as I would need to replace both my head and skin.

It can get scrambled as we add various components over time. Been there. We do the best we can but often find our choices have walked us into a dead end as time and tech advance.

There is no easy or simple solution. I suspect the best you can do is experiment with demo skins. I think you'll find various Omega compatible skins will work with your head. So start by looking for the Omega for your head. You may have to ask the Omega people if they have one for your head in the backroom. Older stuff often isn't out as shelf space is limited. Those Omega adapters are generally around L$100. 

Newer skins will have Applier, Omega, and/or BOM versions. Go through those until you find one that works. It should save changing heads, so way cheaper.

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On 11/22/2020 at 6:50 PM, AdminGirl said:

I've been seeing a shift from appliers to BOM from creators, and honestly I don't get it. Ok I know it lowers your complexity and you can go crazy with thousands of layers (?), but do people really do that anyway?

I prefer appliers because it doesn't blow up my inventory, and because most appliers give you an idea of what you're about to put on. With BOM layers, it's mostly a guessing game for me, depending on how well things are named.

Some creators are even removing appliers and just replacing them with BOM *sad*

What does everyone else think/prefer? And how are you all managing your inventory with all these layers?

I bought 7 heads with all the Black Friday sales, so I have Catwa, Lelutka and LAQ heads now.  So, anyhow...I needed new skins for my new Lelutka and LAQ heads.  So, I tried the applier skin thing with my Lelutka and got totally bogged down in lag compared to BOM.  I have been BOM for at least a month now with my Catwa I had pre the Black Friday sales.  Anyhow, I have been skin shopping as I am certain after experiencing that terrible lag, I want my Lelutka head to be BOM even though it's an older one it has a BOM button.  So, I found the skin I want but while shopping I came across WOW Skins and their deal there is pretty fantastic.  At WOW Skins you can get something like 8 or 9 BOM skins if you join the group for 199 LINDENS.  I thought that was a very good deal.  I tried all those WOW skins on my Lelutka only so far and really like two; I haven't tried them on my other heads yet.  They come with shapes also but I don't know if the shapes look like the pictures or not.  Anyhow, I thought it a great deal for anyone who wants to try out some BOM skins and you get at least 8 BOM skins for the 199 it costs to join the group.  You get a group gift one near the desk plus look on the wall to the left right when you walk in the door, there are a whole bunch of BOM gift group skins there.

In short though, the lag is dramatically reduced with BOM!  It's like getting part of SL back to us, the old SL.  YAY! 

Edited by FairreLilette
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On 11/28/2020 at 2:56 PM, Gabriele Graves said:

I've got heaps of BoM skins that are either for or work well with Lelutka Origins.  League, Spicy (Nuve), Essences, Sessions, Amara Beauty, YS&YS and Glam Affair (as mentioned) to name a few.

Some of those places only ever did one skin but some did more and there is no guarantee on what is still available.

LAQ free skins Camille and Natasha look good on Origins if still available.

Even 7DS skins (which are for Genus) can be fixed with Izzie's nose fix which can work for some Evo (and other) skins as well so try before buying don't be put off trying demos with the nose fix even if it isn't for Lelutka at all.  Izzie's has fixes for almost anything you can think of.

So it's a case of just taking a look around and seeing what is still available.

I wanted to expand on my post above this one about the 8 or 9 skins (I still haven't counted them all yet) at WOW skins if you join the group for 199 lindens - they are full BOM skins which I forgot to mention.  Full BOM skins have the little yellow person icon and it means the head is attached to the body.  You don't use tattoos.  You don't need separate skin for the body.

As far as some of these skins above for Origins, yes there are some good skins for the older Origins heads at those.  But, also as far as Izzie Button's nose fix, I bought it and it works great.  Izzie has a lot of nice not too expense items to fix up your BOM skins for a better fit.  She also has concealer and several other items.  As far as all those skins above at WOW skins too, don't be afraid to adjust your shape to suit the skin.  If you like to play with different shapes, this really is a good deal.  So, I'm just passing it on.  

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I prefer BOM for skin related things (eyebrows, tattoos, and the skin itself of course.) as it tends to blend better than an applier does, (for humans anyways.  Furries are another thing enterily as I don't see many BOM heads or mods.)

I prefer appliers for things like eyes, make-up, and other non-skin related things. (I do use BOM eyebrows though, way easier than using an applier and having to mod it with the hud.  Less lag for me too.)

To each their own though, it is a little sad that some creators aren't offering appliers with their skins (and some make ups, ect).

 

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there head to toe BOM. 

I am wearing 8 layers for tattoo. Hair base, make up, freckles, eye makeup.

my own personally made skin.

Now I dug out a outfit I made back pre mesh era... wearing it all..

The only thing I changed was the invsaprims on the shoes.

So, resistance is futile - HOWEVER what I find disconcerting is the protruding hard nipple and areola on plain colored shirt/undershirt/jacket layers.  I use Lara, not sure about others. (No I am not talking about the HD nipples)

here she is.

 

50664159502_02767032ba_c.jpg

Edited by Tarina Sewell
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47 minutes ago, Tarina Sewell said:

there head to toe BOM. 

I am wearing 8 layers for tattoo. Hair base, make up, freckles, eye makeup.

my own personally made skin.

Now I dug out a outfit I made back pre mesh era... wearing it all..

The only thing I changed was the invsaprims on the shoes.

So, resistance is futile - HOWEVER what I find disconcerting is the protruding hard nipple and areola on plain colored shirt/undershirt/jacket layers.  I use Lara, not sure about others. (No I am not talking about the HD nipples)

here she is.

 

50664159502_02767032ba_c.jpg

Doesn't the newer version have puffy and non puffy nips?

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I really like BOM and I think back to the OP - the way I think about this is to not hold back new features due to old features being sub standard.   What I mean by this is, BOM does make inventory management a PITA.   However, the solution is not to keep Appliers (for me) the solution is to keep pushing LL to bring inventory management and visualization into this century.   Once the Cloud is done the two things I would love to see LL focus on (outside of sorting out the poor new user experience) is a Marketplace 2.0 to ratchet up the capabilities and functionality for merchants and visual inventory/tools. 

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Ok, just popped in here to rant for a moment.

BoM is great. I really like it, mostly, albeit with some reservations regarding the inability to change transparency.

BUT

Some kind of standardized approach to designating system layers is in order. I'm currently wearing a pair of BoM socks (sock layer) and panties (undies layer), with BoM leggings. The problem is, that the leggings are set to the tattoo layer, which means that they sit UNDER the socks and panties. And, while you can shuffle layers around within layer categories, you can't change a category itself. So, my socks (and theoretically panties, but I've just removed those) have to go OVER my leggings.

It seems to me that, at this point, getting rid of the layer categories entirely would be a good thing, and having all system layers as, in effect, tattoo layers. As we can shuffle order around within single categories, it's silly and unnecessary to designate things as tattoo / underwear / clothing.

 

Sorry, you may now carry on.

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2 hours ago, Tarina Sewell said:

HOWEVER what I find disconcerting is the protruding hard nipple and areola on plain colored shirt/undershirt/jacket layers.  I use Lara,

The Lara body comes with a layer just for smoothing those out when using BoM clothing. It's the BoM Add-on Parts. It has it's own HUD for using the layer as well. It's invaluable for smoothing out nipples, and filling in indentations, as well as providing toe coverage for stockings and socks.

21bbc9e84223c1613fc5f641e9069760.png

 

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25 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

The Lara body comes with a layer just for smoothing those out when using BoM clothing. It's the BoM Add-on Parts. It has it's own HUD for using the layer as well. It's invaluable for smoothing out nipples, and filling in indentations, as well as providing toe coverage for stockings and socks.

21bbc9e84223c1613fc5f641e9069760.png

 

That is great I am glad I mentioned it, I never knew! Thanks. Now I can wear a lot more of my stuff I made back premesh

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A downside with BOM skins I just found out yesterday is that you have to use certain lighting in the ENVIRONMENT EDITOR or you will get a neck seam.  I was reading the nc and it said may need CalWL or some such lighting  (can't remember other name at this time) to avoid a neck seam.  It also said Annon Adored Optimal Lighting may not always be enough to avoid a neck seam.  I find CalWL to be too bright for my eyes.  Any possible known fix for this in the works?  LL or it's new buyers are really going to need to let others know they will have to change their lighting to view some BOM skins without a neck seam because a lot of people don't even read notecards so maybe skin designers should put as part of the skin name read notecard so people will read the notecard, such as "Britnany Skin - READ NOTECARD".  I hope EEP gives us some better lightings for BOM skins than CalWL which is too bright for me.  

Edited by FairreLilette
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